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Audi A6

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Comments

  • lintorontolintoronto Member Posts: 8
    Thanks to both of you guys for being so informative and, indeed, so incredibly helpful to neophytes like myself who have never leased before. Automophile indicated that mph =2400x .002 or 2.8% in one example. What does the 2400 represent, and is it a constant? So many interesting comments on the A6 2.7T. I am in the process of deciding on either an 2002 Aura 3.2 CL-S or 2002 A4 3.0; therefore, I am doing my due diligence as best I can. There seems to be almost a romantic passion regarding the Audio even though there is great rational acceptance of reliability concerns and fairly excessive extra warranty cost considerations. I have had a 1998 Legend coupe which I kept for 6 years with only normal maintenance. I presently own a 1995 Legend AS with the identical experience; so, now that I am feeling a little like a change, I am somewhat scared about some of the negative Audi experiences about which I have read. Well, Shakespeare said "cowards die many times before their death". I suppose I should therefore be willing to take a chance on an Audi if I can exercise the courage. Be assured that your comments will be appreciated.
    Lintoronto
  • mbnut1mbnut1 Member Posts: 403
    Thanks for the explaination. So if I understand correctly if I lease a car which sells for $42k and has a $20K residual then the lease payment is composed of the depreciation plus a finance charge on $62K (the sum of the selling price and the residual)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Audis are mechanical things (I almost said beings). They are not perfect, I have had some (which I generally consider minor) problems with the 24+ Audis that my wife and I have owned since 1978 (including a couple that were "company cars"). One of the cars (1979 Audi Silver FoxGTI I think it was called) drank a quart of oil every 100 miles -- other than that, no real show stopper problems. On the other hand, I NEVER EVER go without a warranty (Chrysler Corp taught me that the hard $ way -- remember the Cordoba?).

    I have heard of the legendary Japanese car reliability, but frankly have never known anyone who actually could PROVE that all he/she did was routine maintenance -- but I have seen the posts, so I believe it. My Honda, Toyota, etc driving friends all seem to have "issues" with their cars, just like us Audi owners (and thank god for the Audi advantage, or I bet the cost of these issues would be breathtaking).

    Yet, some of these same posts that tell of the high reliability of some of the Hondas,Toyotas, Nissons, etc, etc, also say their cars are "boring." My friends' Camry and Avalon are very reliable, true, but these friends also claim their cars are dull to drive.

    Different strokes.

    Audis will "engage" you as a driver and as an owner -- you might notice from this board, that Audi driver/owners seem to have a "passion" for their cars -- the A6 2.7T and 4.2 are fantasitic drving machines -- many of us think they are unrivaled for the price.

    Audis improve in subtle ways especially during the first 6 months or 10,000 miles -- and it is only when you have been driving an Audi for this time and then drive something else that you really understand what great driving cars they really are. Then, you get hooked for good.

    But, they are not "loved" by all -- and that is ok too.

    It would seem that most of us on this board, despite some reported issues, are satisfied or delighted customers of the A6 (especially the 2.7T and 4.2 -- and this is not because of any problem with the 2.8, it is just that the 2.8 is, well . . . a trifle underpowered -- but even this is mostly cured with the 2002 A6 3.0 with 220HP).

    All of the Audi owners that I know either are or plan to be REPEAT Audi owners -- that, IMO, is the best peace of mind going.

    Vorsprung durch Technik.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Not quite: " if I lease a car which sells for $42k and has a $20K residual then the lease payment is composed of the depreciation plus a finance charge on $62K (the sum of the
    selling price and the residual)."

    The "Payment basis" in really simple terms (but mostly accurate terms) is made up of the Selling price of the car MINUS the residual (which is usually a % of MSRP, not of the selling price). In your example, if the car sells for $42K and has a residual of $20K, the lease amount will be based on $22K x the money factor (and of course this is calculated to arrive at the MONTHLY payment -- at a # of months term (plus tax)).

    For years companies (GMAC for example) would fool around with the residual as a way to decrease the monthly payment -- but of course an artificially high residual would make it virtually impossible to "get out of the lease" early. Today, leasing arms of the mfg will manipulate both the money factor (i.e., interest rate) and/or the residual, in an attempt to lower the monthly price (and by the way, virtually NEVER put any money down on a leased car -- it is as was said above a "false economy.")

    A very high residual or a very low mf? -- I'll take the lowest mf possible -- this way you can get near the end of your lease (3 - 6 months) and have the possibility of walking away without being upside down, especially if you are buying another [Audi] car. Now, if they offer you a really low mf and a really high residual, beware of the upside down monster -- but if your lease is less than or equal to 36 months (NOT 39 months) and you KNOW you will not exceed 50,000 miles in those 36 or fewer months, you are probably ok (upside down wise) because you can keep your car with full service and warranty coverage for the full term of your lease (i.e., no $$$$$$ surprises).

    Funny thing, the 39 month lease option has been, for Audi, the best deal -- my only advice is to check out the residual, because if you "get close" to your 50,000 service and warranty limit and you still have 4 or 5 months to go, you may be in for a four figure surprise if something goes "bump" or if you "have to get out of the lease" at, say, month 35.

    My current Audi Financial lease is 30 months, no money down and Audi made the first month's payment for me and waived the sec dep. I will begin the shopping process around month 25 and probably have a new Audi no later than month 29 (if history repeats itself) -- and I won't be upside down.

    The Audi loyalty program will -- I hope -- be continued.

    As they say, a word to the prudent. . . or wise.
  • acindyacindy Member Posts: 1
    I'm from Indianapolis and am looking for a A6 2.7T. Tom Wood (the only Audi dealer in Indy) ran an ad for 39 months, $499 a month plus tax, $1,000 down, 10,000 miles per year in the local newspaper. The car had most of the options just not the sport suspension and 17" wheels. It's MSRP was around $44,000.

    I stopped by Tom Wood and they said that the advertisement only applied to "certain" A6's which they sold out of months ago, even though they had several 2.7T's on the lot. They tried to quote me for $635 a month plus tax with nothing down and 15,000 miles per year. This car was even $1,200 cheaper than the advertisement. They mentioned that Audi USA ran the advertisement in the local paper. The ad did of course have Tom Wood's name on it like they were supporting it.

    Does anyone out there know of any dealers in Cincinnati or Chicago (I'd hate to pay the sales tax in Chi Town) that may be honoring the great lease deal's talked about in the ad and on this message board? Thanks for the help.
  • mbnut1mbnut1 Member Posts: 403
    MarkCincinnati your explaination makes sense to me which is why I challenged Chigago27ti sum of the residual and selling price formula in the first place (see posts 1436 and 1444)
  • jkendalljkendall Member Posts: 30
    MarkCincinnati, I hadn't planned to lease my new Audi, but some of the reasoning makes good sense. My question is, if I lease the car in Cincinnati and register and drive it in Indiana, since the lease is made in Ohio, do I pay the Ohio or Indiana sales tax? Since I've just moved here from Texas, where the sales tax on a vehicle is 6.25%, I don't know what the sales tax rates are in Ohio and Indiana.

    Also, why would a trade-in not reduce significantly the cost of the lease payments. AND, have you heard of the one-time lease payment?

    I would most likely buy more miles, as I would hate to be having to pay the super tab for going over the limit. When I talked with the guys in Louisville, the deal they quoted me just didn't add up, so I went to see Ralph in Cincy.

    An alternative would be to wholesale my Land Cruiser, and put the money in a CD. Whatcha think??

    BTW Audiworld released more info on the '02 A6 yesterday in their news.

    jk
  • chicago27t1chicago27t1 Member Posts: 24
    I got my deal at McGrath Audi/Acura in Glenview. Ask for Mike Kollar and tell him that Earl sent you. They are honoring the Audi promotions. Sounds like that other place is trying to rip you off.

    Sales tax is based on where the location of where the vehicle is registered, not where it is sold. So, if you live in Cincinnati, you'll pay Ohio sales tax.
  • chicago27t1chicago27t1 Member Posts: 24
    Sorry, MarkCincinnati. The lease payment formula is:


    Monthly Depreciation Payment + Monthly Finance Charge


    where...


    Monthly Depreciation = (Net Capital Cost - Residual)/(lease term in months)


    Monthly Finance Charge = (Net Cap Cost + Residual) * Money Factor


    This is not a matter of opinion. This is a fact. I went online to see if I could locate the formula elsewhere. Please go to...


    http://www.leasetips.com/calculating.htm


    You will find that, aside from some differences in terminology, my formula is identical to there formula. Their explanation for the calculation of the monthly finance charge (i.e., the plus sign) is similar to mine (though much more clear than what I posted):


    "The plus sign in the formula in step 2 for the monthly finance charge is not a typo. The finance charge is based on the sum of the cap cost and the residual, not the difference. People are used to hearing that in a lease you only "pay for only the part you use" and hence should only pay interest on the depreciation (difference between cap cost and residual). This is not the case at all. Instead, the best way to think of a lease is like a balloon loan where the principle is the cap cost and the balloon payment is the residual value which is made by turning in the car."


    They also have a good general lease guide at:


    http://www.leasetips.com/leasing_university.htm

  • chicago27t1chicago27t1 Member Posts: 24
    There are two benefits (or at least two that I know of) to applying a trade-in to a lease transaction. They are both related to reducing the sale price (net cap cost) of the car.

    1) Reducing the net cap cost will reduce the amount to be depreciated over the term of the lease and the amount that will be subject to a finance charge (see previous really long message).

    2) It will also reduce the amount of sales tax you are paying. In Illinois this a really big deal.

    MarkCincinnati is correct, however, when he says that money factor (interest Rate divided by 24) plays a bigger role. The only problem is that you (to my knowledge) cannot negotiate a money factor. Those figures are supplied by Audi Financial services or whoever owns the lease.
  • chicago27t1chicago27t1 Member Posts: 24
    When I leased my car, I told the dealer that a competitor made me an offer that seemed to be about $30/month more than what the formula indicated.

    My dealer was then kind enough to show me a place in the Audi leasing software where they can hide a pre-sale profit. It will not change the published money factor (though it will show an adjusted money factor that is for dealer's eyes only). In other words, they can give you the published money factor, agreed upon term, agreed upon sales price and published residual -- and still screw you by hiding a profit that will raise your monthly payment. That's why you need to be able to check their figures.
  • chicago27t1chicago27t1 Member Posts: 24
    I only try to blow them away at stoplights. I accelerate to about 5mph over the limit (this gives me a peak of about 4200 rpm) and then continue at that speed. So far only one of them got a ticket when he tried to catch and pass me.

    Other than that, I'm religious about staying within the break-in rules.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    In the post I was responding to -- made by mbnut1 #1451 -- the statement I commented on (made by mbnut1) was: "So if I understand correctly if I lease a car which sells for $42k and has a $20K residual then the lease payment is composed of the depreciation plus a finance charge on $62K (the sum of the selling price and the residual)."

    In my statement, I said, no the payment is not calculated on $62K. In your statement, chicago27t1 #1458 (and your previous statement, which apparently mbnut1 did not understand and was seeking clarification of) you say: "Monthly Depreciation Payment" as a term. You define this term as "(Net Capital Cost - Residual)/(lease term in months)."

    We are in complete agreement, if not in identical use of terms. My unitentional error was that I left out a step, as I was "assuming" that mbnut1 was going to calculate the monthly depreciation incorrectly. For my "rush to simplify" I apologize and stand corrected. For those wading through to this point the web sites suggested are great tools.

    The point I was trying to make (as were you) to mbnut1 was that the Residual was SUBTRACTED from not ADDED to Net Cap Cost or selling price (to calculate depreciation).

    If I somehow seemed to be arguing in favor of the ADDITION of Residual (to the selling price) instead of the SUBTRACTION of Residual (from the selling price) in the algorithm loosely discussed (by me), I want those who are just becoming aquainted with leasing to know that we are in agreement as to the calculation of the monthly payment.

    I said, in post #1453, "The "Payment basis" in really simple terms (but mostly accurate terms) is made up of the Selling price of the car MINUS the residual (which is usually a % of MSRP, not of the selling price)." This is the same (in spirit) as your post. I have no disagreement with your thorough explanation whatsoever. My statement ". . .in really simple terms" was my way of "correcting" the perception that the payment basis (monthly depreciation payment) for mbnut1's question was in the amount of $62,000. Again, my error was in the mf calculation, it should have said mf x $62K not $22K. Again, I apologize for my [hasty] error. Note: "selling price" is my term, Capitalized Cost or Net Cap Cost is the term the finance guys/gals generally use.

    This statement was to further explain (with the risk of oversimplification) the difference between leasing and owning, by agreeing that a lease is fundamentally "renting." Leasing is neither owning nor a "finance to own contract" (generally, and I am referring to a "closed ended" lease, which we may wish to explain in a further post and perhaps in that post contrast it with an "open ended" lease) -- and is therefore based on the payment for the use of the car not the ownership of the car.

    We -- at great length -- would come to the "same" payment amount. Mbnut1 probably would have calculated a much higher payment based on his post #1451 -- as I assume he would have added the residual to Net Cap Cost to determine the depreciation figure.

    On the other hand, maybe we're wrong and he understood it completely and now is really confused!

    My guess is, he has got it and will -- armed with this information -- make the decision based on his circumstances, which is as it should be.
  • chicago27t1chicago27t1 Member Posts: 24
    Sorry about the confusion.

    Personally, I decided to go with a 48 month lease (my previous lease was 39 months). Why 48 months?

    With Audi's all-inclusive 48 month warrantee, I figured that it would make sense to match the lease term to the warrantee term. I drive around 9-10 thousand miles per year, so the mileage will also stay within the lease limits.

    At the time I turned my A4 in, I would have happily driven it for another 9 months. So, in my opinion, the marginal difference between having the car in month 39 vs. month 48 was pretty small. The effect on payments was about $40 month, meaning a savings of around $1520 between months 2 and 39 (as a returning lease customer, the first payment is waived). Spreading this savings out to months 40-48 yields a savings of around $170/month for the final months. True, the car is also worth less in those months. However, the utility (i.e., fun) I gain from driving the car cannot be measured in economic terms. Though at that point in time, I may find myself gawking at a lot of the newer cars.
  • chicago27t1chicago27t1 Member Posts: 24
    For those of you who are interested, there is a very significant difference between a Close Ended Lease and an Open Ended Lease. Here is an extremely simplified explanation of the primary differences.

    In very simple terms, a close ended lease means that your obligation ends at the termination of the lease (though you may have to fork out some bucks if you have mileage overages, if the car is damaged or has abnormal wear and tear). Aside from this, you get to walk away from the car.

    In even simpler terms, an open ended lease leaves you on the hook for the difference between the residual and the market value of the car at the end of the lease. As an example, if the residual on the car is $20K, but the market value of the car is only $15K, you could be on the hook for the $5k difference. This is particularly a problem when you consider that residuals (as MarkCincinnati pointed out) are often exaggerated to reduce monthly lease payments.

    I believe that open ended leases are illegal in Illinois.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    My circumstances -- and for different reasons, many of the people with whom I work and/or are my friends -- dictate a much shorter term for a lease than 48 or even 39 months.

    Not to scare any potential Audi "buyers" off -- I must tell you that these German cars (and I am not limiting it to Audi -- and to CYA you might broaden this to be "European" cars) are or can be breathtakingly expensive to repair and sometimes just to service. The great minds at Audi coprorate came up with the term "The Audi Advantage" -- my first so advantaged Audi product was a 1988 80 quattro with the 5 cylinder engine. The Audi Advantage is simply free service and warranty for 48 months or 50,000 miles. Literally all you pay for is plates, gas, insurance and one or two sets of tires beyond the factory originals. (In 1988 they called it the Three year test drive, as I recall -- and it was 3 years and 50,000 miles or 16,666 miles per year for 3 years).

    After the Audi Advantage expires, you are "running naked." This phrase I have heard used in relationship to cars and computers -- in that "you had better not be caught running naked" (because you probably can't afford it).

    All my friends and co-workers and most of my family drive in excess of 15,000 miles per year. A thiry six month lease is "just about right" in terms of the Audi Advantage. Moreover, most of my friends and co-workers are under the age of 40 (I am 50, however) and have both the urge and the means to get new cars with reasonable frequency (around 3 years -- meaning they would lease a 2001, skip the 2002's and either get a 2003 or an "early" 2004). The "magic" term for these folks (not everyone of course) is a maximum of 36 months. Also they do hope to balance (as much as possible) having a reasonable residual factor with as low as possible money factor (interest).

    My "upside down" comments previously effect people who drive greater than or equal to 15,000 miles annually if they run out of miles/warranty (Audi "Advantaged" miles, i.e.) before they run out of "term." SOME of the lease programs (including Audi's) got such a low payment number by overstating the residual (this is not done nearly as much as it was a few years ago, but it is still done). A very very high residual (unable to be supported by market demand for the "used car" -- any used car) factor used to arrive at the lease payment virtually "traps" you in the lease for the full-term (warranty or "new car lust" or whatever be damned).

    Couple all these things together with the truth of European car repairs (if you are running naked) and throw in some "major" maintenance items or -- god forbid -- a breakdown, and you can see that you run a potentially serious financial risk (possibly within a few months of the end of your lease term). If you take a hit, from either a repair or the "cost to get out of an upside down lease" -- you will probably no longer be a fan of the car that you were hit by. Whew!

    That is why if you get a lease that is 3 - 12 months longer than the liklihood of the "Audi Advantage" (or BMW or Volvo, etc.) remaining in force, you place yourself in a risk situation that, in my experience, is NOT offset by a slightly lower payment.

    Put it this way -- if you think that in 36 months you will breeze through the 50,000 mile warranty (Audi Advantage) -- DO NOT get the 39 month lease. If you do (and you "enjoy" the lower monthly payment that a 39 month term affords you) be aware of the potential of a four figure service and/or repair bill within those extra three or four months. The extra premium of a 36 month term is insurance -- if the difference is $10.00 (and it WILL be more than that in all probability) -- multiply the term by that number and that is your "cost" to avoid an expensive "issue" near your lease term end.

    Our chicago friend is safe --- at 48 months term -- due to the circumstances he described (i.e., he is not likely to run out of Audi Advantage before he runs out of lease payments (due to the 48 month term and the 48 month Audi Advantage coupled with his low milage expectations)).

    I, on the other hand have chosen a 30 month term. At month 8, I am at 11,000+ miles. If I order a new Audi @ month 25 (when I will have 34,000+ on the car) and it takes 3 - 4 months to come it, I can "walk away from my 40,000+ mile car" with no upside down monster at month 28 or 29. My only cost will have been one new set of tires (which I replaced @ 8,000 miles) -- plus tags, insurance and gas. If they offered a 33 month term, based on my driving needs and history, that would appear to be "perfect." Hmmm, maybe, just maybe a 36 month term would work -- but then again I don't want to run out of Audi Advantage -- great as they are, Audi's are very expensive when you're maintaining or fixing them with YOUR money.
  • max27tmax27t Member Posts: 35
    It is counter-intuitive that the finance charge should be based on the SUM of the Net Cap Cost and the Residual Value, but this is correct. It might be more palatable to say it is based on the average of the Net Cap Cost and the Residual Value. Of course the average is the SUM of these two figures, divided by 2.

    When you make a payment, part of the payment is to pay down the amount borrowed and part is to cover the interest incurred on the outstanding balance owed.

    If we assume the depreciation is paid evenly over the life of the lease, the finance charge is the annual interest rate times the number of years times the average outstanding balance. The Average Outstanding Balance is the average of the amount borrowed at the beginning (Net Cap Cost) and the amount owed at the end (Residual Value).

    The Total Finance Charge paid over the life of the lease is then

    (Net Cap Cost plus Residual Value)/2 times annual interest rate times the number of years of the lease

    which is also equal to

    (Net Cap Cost plus Residual Value)/2 times monthly interest rate times the number of months of the lease

    As we all know, the monthly interest rate is just the annual interest rate divided by 12, so the Total Finance Charge is:

    (Net Cap Cost plus Residual Value) times annual interest rate/24 times the number of months of the lease

    Therefore the Monthly Finance Charge is = (Net Cap Cost plus Residual Value) times annual interest rate/24

    or

    Monthly Finance Charge is = (Net Cap Cost plus Residual Value) times Money Factor, where the Money Factor is the Annual Interest Rate / 24

    This is the source of the mysterious factor of 24
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    My wife has a 2001 225HP TT (13 months old) -- she has 19,000+ miles on it. She claims she wants to keep it forever. The Audi Advantage will change her mind. She WILL want a 2003 in about 13 months (26 months into her 30 month lease) -- it could be close.

    Her last "full" lease was 24 months and we were @ 40,000+ miles. We thought we could squeeze by this time -- well, Audi Financial does offer 27 months.

    Another lease example for your contemplation and consideration.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I just want to be sure that you all realize we have two other boards where there is lots of conversation and information on the ins and outs of leasing: the Finance, Warranty & Insurance Board and the Smart Shopper Board.

    Pat
    Host
    Sedans Message Board
  • mbnut1mbnut1 Member Posts: 403
    max27t-
    Thanks thats the explanation I was looking for. It all makes sense now. I'm armed and dangerous now.:)
  • portedported Member Posts: 16
    Any recent updates on good extended warranties? We have about 15K miles ('99 A6Q). Looks like we will keep the car (owned, not leased) longer than expected.

    BTW: the Tip works just like a manual, no automatic upshift 1-2, can downshift to 1st. Not a 99.5, build date 12/98.

    Thanks,

    Ported
  • jeqqjeqq Member Posts: 221
    Mark,

    Please explain in detail how you terminate a 30 month lease on the 28th or 29th month. Also I thought Audio does not deviate from their fixed monthly leases, i.e. 12, 24 , 36 , 39 and 48 month leases. Please explain this to me.

    Thanks,

    Jeff
  • beerguybeerguy Member Posts: 3
    Has anyone had good luck with window tint that does not affect the AM radio reception? When I tinted my '96 A6 with Llumar Platinum (metalized) my reception when right down the tubes because the antenna is built into the rear window. I've added a 2001 2.7t and am broiling in the MN summer. However, I don't want to mess up my radio reception. Thanks in advance for any recommendations or success stories.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    At the risk of oversimplification (which I have been rightly chastised for doing) -- let's start out with the following:

    Leasing is renting the use of the car -- generally speaking the purpose of an auto lease is to use the vehicle with no intention of ever establishing any equity in it. It is, in many respects, like renting an apartment or staying in a long-term hotel. With the Audi Advantage (and other mfg's similar programs) coupled with a lease, "all you do" is pick the car, arrange for the lease, pay for the tags, gas and insurance (and tires if you wear a set out or want snow tires or something like that) and drive. Everything else is taken care of -- and for the term of the lease you have all the responsibilities of ownership and some of the rights of ownership.

    For example -- you have to take care of the car AS IF IT WAS YOUR PROPERTY (or pay the consequences at the termination of the lease). Yet even this obvious responsibility is also a "right" of ownership (sort of). If you buy a car (in cash) or lease a car or finance a car and keep it for 50,000 miles and "abuse" it -- you will pay, one way or the other. If you lease the car, you are, however (in the case of abusing the car) REQUIRED to pay for your sins. If you buy a car and abuse it and do not sell it -- just allow it to die that is -- you will not be required to pay another entity (as you are when you lease). Of course, when you own a car outright and abuse it you will "pay" either because the car will have a shortened lifespan or, if you decide to sell or trade it in, you will take a hit on the value of the car.

    The point of all the above is to say that in spite of the financial arrangement called leasing, you have virtually all of the rights and responsibilities of ownership -- it is just that the payment terms are different.

    In the example above, I say that you "will pay" if you abuse a car during the term of the lease at the end of the lease -- perhaps it will be for "excess wear and tear" or high milage or the fact that you smoked in the car (which reduces the number of people who may consider buying it used), or other factors including perhaps "normal" wear and tear. The opposite is also true. That is, if your car is not abused and is "desirable" you may find that instead of costing (as it does when you abuse) it can pay -- you can "profit" by keeping your leased car in "better than expected" condition.

    Here, after years and years of experience, are some suggestions that generally work to allow you to walk away from a lease early.

    As has been discussed at length above, there are friendly and unfriendly leases -- a friendly lease has a "realistic" residual. If, for example, you lease a 2001 Audi today for 4 years and the residual at month 48 is 62.5% and the milage allowance is 60,000 miles -- well, you better plan on keeping the car to term, because it is virtually impossible for a four year old (actually 5 model years old) Audi A6 to be worth 62.5% of MSRP. The leasing company structured your contract to get you a low low payment perhaps by using this technique. The lesson here, if you even think you might like to get out of your lease early is to do everything in your power to get a friendly lease (friendly in terms of "getting out of it early" which would, in this example, mean a "realistic" residual).

    Next -- keep your car immaculate inside and outside and under the hood. Perform all required service ON TIME at the dealer (a dealer). In my case I generally do 1.5 to 2.0 times as many oil changes as are required -- and I pay for them, and I have them done at the dealer. This (the immaculate inside and outside part) is really hard -- this means washing and waxing the car regularly and even detailing the car professionally at least once every 12 months (twice if you can). And, in our case, we always have the detailing done at the dealer (which costs about 20% more than elsewhere).

    Get to know, by name and face both the service manager and the service advisor. When they do good work, tell them. When they do something special, tell them, tell the dealership ownership and/or management and write a letter (cc'd to the dealership) to Audi Customer Loyalty personnell here in America.

    Keep in touch with the sales staff, especially the sales associate who sold you your car.

    Remember your sales, service, parts, finance and management people at Christmas -- send them a card. Last year, my wife and I sent the various departments a basket of fruit from Harry and David -- thanking them for their committment to excellence.

    When you get the call asking you how the dealership does -- give them 5's -- if you can't give them 5's, tell them NOT the telemarketers who call. It helps if you tell the people (about your picks and your praises) to their faces, not a nameless, faceless telemarketer. The net of this is, become your dealership's "best customer." You will be amazed at the level of service AND sales.

    OK so now you are into your "I would like to get out early phase" of your lease. It may be 6 months early, for example -- make sure you begin the "alignment" process. You will need to know the "street value" and/or the "trade in value" of your car. You will also need to know the "payoff amount" -- the salesperson will usually be all too happy to get this and the trade in value for you (with a phone call).

    All cars go through value cycles -- Audi's are neither particularly good or bad, although I have found that the later model Audi's seem to command a little more on the street value than perhaps a comparably priced (when new) non-Audi (Volvos, Jags, VW's and some BMW's, but generally NOT Porche's for example).

    Assuming you have a friendly lease, you may be suprised to find (as have I) that the value of your Audi with months to go on the lease is within $1,000 of the buyout. Once, my buyout was less than the street price and I sold the car in the paper and pocketed several hundred dollars.

    Assuming you are going to ORDER a new car at this point (for example 5 months out), you can ask your salesperson for a projection of the value of the car -- the buyout will be known in advance month by month. If the car you order takes 3 months to come in, and all of the above circumstances are "in place" -- the dealer will "make you whole" -- you will have a new car and be free of your old lease before the end of the term.

    Now, however, notwithstanding, etc.: The dealer cannot, will not, "give the store away." Do not expect this, do not ask for "a favor." You will find, often, that because you are a "really good customer" (and a repeat customer) you will get the "best deal" possible both from the dealership and the mfg (the Audi Loyalty program is a great example: no sec dep and Audi makes the first payment for "repeat" customers).

    Of the more than two dozen Audi's my wife and I have owned, we have bailed out early (even if it has just been a mo
  • mariobgoodemariobgoode Member Posts: 114
    I had a similar problem before, and my solution (worked for me, maybe not for everyone) was add another antenna to the car, something that is not too ubiquitous. The smaller, the better. I find these small add-ons lately in European cars, and they even look good. I hope this helps you. Mario
  • vkjvkj Member Posts: 67
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I understand. I just wanted to make sure everyone knew that other resources on this subject are alive and well in Town Hall.

    By the way, I may have mentioned this to you before, but your posts would be a lot easier to read if you would put them in the message box, rather than the title line.

    Pat
    Host
    Sedans Message Board
  • jeqqjeqq Member Posts: 221
    thank you for the explanation.

    Jeff
  • vkjvkj Member Posts: 67
    sorry, on the a6 board on Audiworld.com the opposite seems to be the consensus. If the message is short, just say it, if it is long then your approach is adopted. I am not sure why you believe it is easier to have short messages broken up, but I will bow to the will of the majority. Any one else have an opinion?
  • kam66kam66 Member Posts: 31
    On the Audiworld board it is a little more difficult to get to a post as they display them as threads. Here you can follow along by just scrolling down and do not have to select a message to read it.

    Just my opinion.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I find it so difficult to read the Audiworld posts, even tho I do like the fact that they have a search. I can read or skip the narratives here in the town hall and it seems more like "public" e-mail. If a search could be added -- for example, keywords, that would be great!
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Those of you who are long timers to this board know that I have had my brake rotors replaced several times both on my 2000 and now 2001 A6 4.2. Using the search for "brake rotors" over on the Audiworld board, I found that several (many?) folks have had or are having the same issues with their brakes -- and this applies to the A6 2.7T and 4.2 and the S4 (2000 and 2001 models).

    I have called a company in Canada called KVR Performance, Inc. -- they claim they have a part number for high performance, cross drilled rotors for my 2001 A6 4.2 -- but they can't find a price for it. I have checked Joe Hoppen motorsports, APR and other companies -- so far no luck in finding anyone who actually has "A6 4.2" performance items (brakes, suspensions, spoilers, etc.). I am not particularly interested in "tricking out" my A6 (as I am optimistic about an S6 Sedan "coming soon" to the US or a V8 S4 ditto) -- but I am interested in getting a reliable, non-shuddering set of front rotors.

    Where can I buy these things -- do they really exist?

    The following quote from "timcar" over at AudiWorld A6 Forum is exactly descriptive of the experience's I have had and am currently having with ALL 5 sets of Rotors on my two A6 4.2's
    The conclusions that it may not be rotor warpage are logical, and I agree with timcar -- as my experiences have been virtually identical.

    (the following is a direct quote from a message board participant, named "timcar")

    "My 2.7T's brakes will "purr" when braking from speeds 80+. But, they will only do it
    under certain conditions. I assumed it was warped rotors, but now I don't think so.
    First, they normally only do it when I first apply them at higher speeds. Second, they
    don't do it at lower speeds at all. This is inconsistent with any warped rotors I've ever
    experienced on any other car. The other evening, I did a little experiment. When I knew
    I'd be braking for an exit when I'd been driving 80+, I tapped the brake pedal a few
    times before reaching the exit to "warm" up the brakes. Sure enough, no "purr." I did
    this because I'd noticed that after significant higher speed use the "purr" seems to
    vanish. Think it must be something other than warping. What? Maybe the pads are
    grabbing then sliding very rapidly, producing the pulsing. How about this: partly glazed
    pads, causing the above. I.e., when the glaze burns off, the slipping stops. Or, could it
    be the calipers need to warm up to work efficiently. Does 4 pots, mean 4 pads? Does
    heating up make certain that all points on the caliper are making contact with the rotor?
    Don't know. But I don't think it's the rotors. I think that always driving these cars under
    100mph may be a form of abuse."
  • timcartimcar Member Posts: 363
    I'd love to hear about a silver bullet. One poster in response to the post you quoted said it might not be the rotors at all, but the pads vibrating in their housings. I.e., when they warm up and expand, they no longer vibrate. Since Audi has redesigned these brakes for '02 after only two years, suggests it's a design issue.

    Yet another poster said they had their rotors cryogenically treated and that solved the problem. I'm puzzled myself, and have just been living with them. Would love to learn of someone who has THE answer.
  • amarchanamarchan Member Posts: 23
    I agree with timcar that it is not warped rotors responsible for the humming noise the brakes make in some A6's. Before my '01 A6 2.7T arrived the local Audi dealer gave me a similar '00 2.7T to drive, and I had it for 2 weeks. I mentioned to the service people an occasional hum in the brakes (at all speeds) and they told me that the car I was driving was a demo and that someone before me had driven it with the hand brake "on" for about 5 miles and that was the reason for the hum. I pointed out that the hum was predominantly, if not only, in the front brakes, which should not be affected by the hand brake, but they insisted that was the case and that they would be taking care of it when I turned the car in. Three weeks later, after my car came in, I again had the opportunity to drive the other car (they were putting a clear coat protectant on the paint) the hum was gone, and the service people swore nothing had been done to the brakes. If it was warped rotors, the vibration should ALWAYS be present. I had this problem with an '82 Volvo 242 Turbo and an '84 245 Turbo Wagon, and it felt different than what I experienced with the '00 A6.
    Maybe it's the pads, and the cryogenic treatment of the rotors helps the pads apply their force more evenly. Whatever it is I'm sure Audi knows about it and therefore is making changes for '02.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The folks at KVR Performance called me back! New front rotors are $275 (each). But they have no pads.

    I called Audi and they said a set of front pads for my 01 4.2 is $257!

    I called APR and they said "if they had them, they would be around $75 for Mintech (?) Red Box. KVR Performance pads are also in this range, but "none exist" -- no cross ref part number for my car.

    So, let me see if I have this right -- new rotors, which are identical in fitment, even though they are "cross drilled" which should make them cooler MAY not solve the problem. Even if I could get new pads and new rotors in the aftermarket, the problem might not go away, unless I replaced the entire brake assembly which would include new rotors, new pads and new pad housings (calipers?).

    This could be expensive and for no gain (cooler brake rotors, sure, but we are all coming to the conclusion that the problems are most likely NOT warpage. The entire Big Brake replacement kits I have seen (with no assurance that an A6 4.2 fittment actually exists) are pretty close to $3,000.

    The service manager at Northland said he could probably get Audi to "buy" the new rotors and pads (but again to what end?). I cannot even imagine why they would buy the entire aftermarket brake replacement.

    And we all seem to have come to the conclusion that Audi really goofed up this time (in the 00 and 01 model years) -- so they have put "improved front brakes" (from their announcement) on these cars.

    By the way, while my car was in for some routine maintenance, I was given an A6 (2.8 quattro) to drive (2001 and it had about 3,400 miles on it) -- the brakes seemed fine, I could NOT replicate the shudder or purring sound no matter how I tried (at speeds of over 80 included). And, my wife's 2001 TT's brakes are fine at any speed apparently (and I have exercised them, fully and they have 18,000+ miles on them and they are "perfect.").
  • wbreauxwbreaux Member Posts: 33
    When will the 2002 A6s arive and what are the major differences from ? I have read about the A6 3.0; it sounds like otherwise there will not be major changes.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Read Edmunds.com's just posted First Drive of the 2002 A6 3.0 by following the link in the Additional Resources box on the left sidebar of this page. Let us know what you think.

    Pat
    Host
    Sedans Message Board
  • jkendalljkendall Member Posts: 30
    Don't laugh! But my '97 Toyota Land Cruiser which I've owned for only 8 months, has the pulse
    or 'purring' brakes. I had all the discs turned, and the problem persists!! I think timcar is on
    the right track. I'm gonna try to heat up the brakes and see if that solves the problem. Of
    course, the TLC weighs over 5k #, and, I'm sure smaller rotors, but it shouldn't do that!!

    jk
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The Audi Press Release for the new A6 (which by the way has many subtle and several significant changes for 2002) clearly states that the A6 for 2002 will have "New high performance front brakes" -- they must know of the issues (the aggravation, if you will) that the previous "new" design caused (and still is causing).

    I think I would take a 2002 A6 if they would let me walk away from my 2001 -- but after only 8 months and 9 payments (the first one they made) on a 30 month lease -- bzzzz sorry, no way. The brake "purring" is just plain annoying in an other wise fantastic car. I wonder if the S6 has the same brakes (in other words, if in December of 2000 when I got my 2001 A6, there had been an S6 available, would it have had the same brakes or different? -- The S8 for example supposedly has different brakes than the A8 "Brembo's" as I recall reading in a test report of a US S8).

    The press release for the 2002 S6 Avant makes no mention of anything relating to special brakes.

    Inquiring minds.
  • audienthusiastaudienthusiast Member Posts: 1
    Hi,am planning to lease an Audi A6 2.8 Quattro-a 39 month lease with quattro celebration package and Bose system.The monthly payment will be around 460 dollars and there is a $1000 down payment and first months payment too-then there is the documentation fees of $45 and sales tax of $120-taxes in Ca.Now the dealer tells me of 577 cap reduction fee-what is this-he tells me its down payment-but i dont see it on the national advertisement.Am confused,is this a good deal-this is the first time am leasing and the money factor is 1.49,have no idea what the interest is ,the residual is 18177.Please help......
  • drew_drew_ Member Posts: 3,382
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  • aam1aam1 Member Posts: 26
    Hi All:

    I am a first time poster to this board and a potential Audi buyer. This board is great and I have learnt a lot glancing through the posts. Was wondering if I could get some help.

    I am thinking of leasing a 2001 A6 2.7T. I understand from the posts on this board that:

    - there are some issues with the brakes on this car.

    - the 2002 model will be much better than the current model.

    Is it worth than waiting for the new model year to come out? What are possible changes? Are the break problems very widespread?

    Also, if someone can recommend a dealer in the Tri-State (NY/NJ/CT) area that has a good sales and very importantly service department, it would be very helpful.

    Thanks a lot everyone.
  • timcartimcar Member Posts: 363
    Regarding your questions:


    1. Brakes have been problematic on some 2.7T's and 4.2's. 2.8's have had different brakes that come from the A4. Some consider the 2.8's brakes inadequate. I would get my 2.7T again in a minute, not withstanding it's purring brakes at speed. The 2002 will have redesigned brakes for the 2.7T and 4.2. Don't know about 2.8. My bet is they won't have this problem.


    2. This is a URL with a list of changes for '02. I can't swear it's complete. I've seen other lists which show Bi-xenon's and I don't think they're on this list.


    http://www.audiworld.com/news/01/2002changes/


    3. Whether it's worth waiting for '02 is up to you. There are tradeoff's. I would wait for '02's, but I don't want to spend your money. Dealer's have been having some fantastic financing on leftover's. I also think some color combo's may have been dropped for '02, so, if you're in love with any of them, this is your last shot. That said, the sport mode option on the Tiptronic alone would make me wait for '02. The better brakes with Brake Assist is another biggie for me. Ditto the dynamic changes, stiffer structure, thicker glass. Maybe if you don't drive an A6 every day they might not be a big deal, but I would have to think they'll make a wonderful car even better.


    4 My wife and I each got an Audi from Audi of Mendham in NJ. We're well satisfied with the dealer, and Bonnie Manniello is very nice to do business with.

  • bertram60bertram60 Member Posts: 113
    My '98 A6 2.8 had warping problems twice in three years, 38,000 miles I had it. My '00 A8 has been in for three sets of rotors in the last 5 weeks. The first set were doomed from the start as I picked the car up during a huge storm and had to drive through a ton of deep water. Second set went on, and within a week the shudder was back, mostly noticeable from higher speeds, but eventually it was like driving a paint mixer. The current set, while better still has some purr to them. I have taken great pains to make sure I broke them in correctly. I spoke with the owner of KVR and they have a shop here in Miami. He suggested that I get Audi to give me the new rotors, he would check and cross drill them for $40 each and then I could have Audi install them.

    He also stressed that breaking in the rotors was very important (but near impossible for me to accomplish). He said to take the car to 40mph, come to a gentle stop, back to 40 and repeat three times, then park the car and let the brakes get cold. The more times you do this the better.

    I am taking the car back next week (Nav system failed) and going to have them look at the rotors again. My service rep was sick the day I was in, and said he wanted them to change all four rotors, but only the front were done, so that's his fix.

    I have to say this is a hugely annoying problem and I understand how you all feel. The big brake kit for my car (996 Porsche brakes) is $3,400 plus installation, and is only for the front end. I'm torn (not that I want to spend the money) but I want this problem solved. Audi seems content to replace the brakes every few weeks, but I don't like having to mess with it. It's also pretty embarrassing to take clients out in a $60k+ car and have to make excuses for the brakes.
  • emdoc1emdoc1 Member Posts: 1
    Anyone know of a good aftermarket CD changer that will fit the Audi A6 Bose system? I would prefer not to get an RF cd changer.

    Thanks
    Rich
    Chicago, IL
  • kirby2010kirby2010 Member Posts: 136
    I've been following the debate on buying now (2001) versus waiting for a 2002. I've been very happy with my 2001 (cashmere gray, 6 speed, cold weather, premium and preferred luxury packages). At this rate I'll probably trade in a few years (I'm a buyer, not a leaser). I wonder if we'll see the S6 over here some day?

    When I look at the enhancements to the 2.7T for the new model year and weigh them against the probable savings for a 2001 model it seems clear to me that a 2001 model is the way to go. This is already a great car and the improvements are - and I don't mean this critically - marginal in light of the overall performance and comfort of the current model year. I bought my car a few months ago in part because I wanted as wide a selection as possible from dealer inventory. When I made the decision to go Audi I didn't want to wait. It's been a great summer so far and I've made two very enjoyable car trips.

    By the way - I have encountered one "problem" I'd like to survey the members on. Twice while having my car re-fueled at a full service station (two stations - one in MA and one in NJ) the nozzle failed to shut off. Both attendants were apologetic and discounted the sale. One of the attendants told me that this happened to him once before while re-fueling an Audi. This has never happened to me at self serve. Does anyone have any experience with this?

    Back to the 2001 versus 2002 debate - my recommendation is if you find a 2001 with the trim you're looking for - go for it. I have no regrets at all.
  • trejos28trejos28 Member Posts: 93
    Although BMW had me, I decided to go the Audi way...'01 2.8...$496 a month (includes all taxes, etc.), $0 down, 39 month lease. Very, very happy.
    Looking forward to conversing on this board.
  • timcartimcar Member Posts: 363
    I love Edmunds and the Town Hall forum, so I am not happy to offer negative criticism about the First Drive article on the 2002 A6.

    I'm sorry that I didn't find the article either very informative or entertaining. With the greatest respect, I don't think it was very well done. Audi AG released an extensive English language press release that detailed the many changes that went into the '02 A6. If I'd only read the First Drive, I'd think the only things that have changed are that it has a new base engine, a new radio and the wonderful Multitronic. Unfortunately, most people aren't going to get to enjoy the Multitronic for quite awhile since the vast majority of A6's in the U.S. are sold to people who want AWD.

    Indeed, the lengthy First Drive article has only one small paragraph that describes actually driving the new A6, and that tells me almost nothing. Ninety percent of the article is a technical discussion of the new CVT. The remaining paragraphs tell me about the engine line up, some appearance changes and that the new radio controls have been simplified and made more ergonomic, as if a serious short coming is being addressed. As a driver of an '01 2.7T I can assure everyone there's nothing difficult or complex about the present sound system controls. And that's coming from a technophobe who has difficulty figuring out which end of a screwdriver to hold.

    Because of the remarks about the radio, reliance on rehashed technical information on the Multitronic CVT, and no meaningful description of what it's really like to drive the new '02 A6, I regretfully have to conclude that the reviewer has probably never seen an '02 A6 except in pictures. Speaking of which, the German publicity shots included show a German A6 with black matte lower body panels. I don't think that's coming to the U.S. U.S. Audi's have always had body panel colored panels, however this week's Auto Week showed a new A4 test driven in Vermont that also had black matte lower body panels.
  • stevenb4stevenb4 Member Posts: 3
    I own a full service gas station and an 2000 A62.7t 6sp., I have never had a problem with the nozzle shutting off when the tank was full, if it persists you should have it serviced.

    I purchased my loaded a6(everything but GPS and rear sensors) for under $35k. it has 25K miles and came with an ext4ra set of two piece 17 inch rims and tires. I have the stock 16' sport rims for the winter. I Love the car and have had no problems! The brakes are spongy and take getting used to. I had a a4 2.8q I/5sp., and sport susp, and thought I couldn't be happier, but the a6 with all it features and extra room has been a blast. Now I can fit three kids in the back and leave the caravan at home..
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Due to the "outpouring" of information regarding the "purring" brakes on some A6 2.7T's, 4.2's and now an A8 (bertram60) ["My '00 A8 has been in for three sets of rotors in the last 5 weeks,"] I have been able to compile enough information to send a non-critical letter to Audi of America sharing this information with them and requesting some understanding, clarification and help. I cc'd the 5 page letter, repleat with quotes from this board and AudiWorld to the service manager @ my dealer here in Cincinnati -- he has been extremely helpful and forthcoming. He has shared with me that replacing rotors on [certain] Audis is NOT a rare service procedure in his shop. "Throw a set of rotors and pads on it" seems to be a common way to deal with the customer's complaints of the shuddering brakes.

    As we have been discussing on this board, KVR performance has cross drilled or slotted or cross drilled and slotted rotors (pick one and the rotors are $275 each, pick both and add $40.00 for the additional labor -- each). I WAS excited about getting new rotors (even if I had to pay for them) if my purring brakes would be vanquished. Then, I read timcar's post and bertram60's post and kind of figured that these new rotors wouldn't do any good, since the problem appears NOT to be warped rotors after all. Then I went to www.goapr.com and found information about the Big Brake Replacement kit (also mentioned by bertram60) -- they are over $3,000 for the fronts! But, they claim that the entire brake set up is replaced and that true high performance braking capability (with fine street manners) will be the result.

    Now, I am on (in 2 4.2's) my 5th set of rotors and pads (front only for the rotors and they did replace the rear pads, too). The pads (front only) are listed at the dealer at $257.00 -- even with a 100% markup, it seems to me that the folks who have been discussing this issue on this board and the AudiWorld board have cost Audi (either "of America or AG") a "ton" of money, as I can only assume that the rotors (at dealer selling prices must be at least $1,800 to $2,000).

    If I keep going back to the dealer for new rotors and pads as many times as bertram60, timcar and others have or will, I know I will blow through $3,000 worth of parts in a matter of a few months -- again to what end?

    The question I ask and the clarification I seeking is this: are "you" convinced that the KVR cross drilled rotors, plus another new set of Audi OEM pads all installed by the dealer will be any improvement (beyond the obvious improvement in braking and disc cooling that such rotors claim and that cross drilling inherently affords?). In other words, regardless of WHO is paying for this "fix" should I even bother?

    Part two: if the answer is ". . .well if it is "free" what could it hurt?" I then ask the question, suppose I do get the KVR rotors, Audi pads and suppose that it really is free, then suppose it doesn't work because as we have all agreed, it doesn't sound like warped rotors -- should I respectfully request that Audi spring for the Big Brake Kit?

    If I have to put out $3,000+ for parts and another $600 for labor, versus dumping out of my car and spending the same money towards a 2002 (with improved brakes) -- based on my (and your experiences) shouldn't I just pay my money and take my choice (and get the 2002)?

    What would YOU do -- and what would you do if it was free vs what would you do if it was "fee?"

    Thanks all.
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