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Audi A6

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Comments

  • timcartimcar Member Posts: 363
    Hello, Mark. Since you asked for an opinion, I'd let AoA and my dealer try whatever they would do for free. If it didn't fix it, and it bothered me as much as it appears to bother you, (I'm not implying it shouldn't.) I'd think about an '02. You seem to have an especially good relationship with AoA; perhaps they'd help ease the financial burden of putting you in an '02.

    My comment concerning vibrating pads came via April on AW when she made a brief reference about an earlier post in response to my hypothesis that it isn't the rotors. I tried the search function on AW and couldn't find it. Before you go to a lot of bother, you might want to ask her directly what she knows about it
  • forex303forex303 Member Posts: 6
    Recently had the opportunity to take a 2000 A6 2.7T home for the weekend. Loved it so much that I went to the dealer in search of a new 2001 model. I've only got 2 dealers near my home and their limited inventory of colors/options is not what I want. I see that wbreaux asked if anyone knew when the 2002's will hit the streets. The host refers to the First Drive article, but I have to agree with timcar that the article is not very informative and only really applies to those interested in the 3.0 FWD. So, on behalf of wbreaux and myself, I ask again, does anyone know when the 2002 line is due for delivery? One dealer I met with told me that it won't be until January 2002, but I think he's just trying to sell me on his existing inventory. He also says that no more 2001 will be delivered to dealers for the remainder of the year.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    If you have just joined in on the Edmunds town - hall A6 message board, and have read the "lively" converstations pertaining to my A6 4.2 brakes (and some 2.7T's and now A8's brakes), and remarks from timcar, bertram60, etc. I want to tell you that none of the problems I have had would put me off buying another Audi or another future A6.

    I suspect that even those, like me, who have had minor issues or annoyances (as I consider the brake issues) with their Audis would agree that these are very fine cars.

    And, to further punctuate the point, no matter what has been said, by me at least, I assure you that both my wife and I are planning on future Audi cars -- she wants a 2003 TT and I want a 2003 S4 (4 door "coupe," so I have heard) or S6 (non-Avant style). My A6 is a joy to drive. I know of nothing else that I can afford that I would buy (or lease as the case may be).

    Audi of America and my local Cincinnati dealer, Northland, generally exceed expectations -- and when they don't, the fix the problem or address the issue and raise the bar.

    I do not hesitate to recommend Audi products and will not hesistate to acquire them in the [near] future.

    Quick takes:

    I agree with timcar about the edmunds first drive -- not much meat in the article, not a test report in the expected sense of the word.

    I have read much about the new 2002 A6's and based on what I have read and what my dealer has told me, several things are important to note: The A6 for 2002 -- especially the 3.0 and 2.7T versions are much more like the 2001 4.2 than anything else -- and this comment applies both to styling and feel (if not outright performance -- especially for the 3.0 variant). The suspension has been modified, the brakes have been replaced/upgraded, the trim and fit and finish are pushed up a few notches, sound deadening has been improved, steering, tires, radio (indash 6 disc CD changer) and literally dozens of other improvements have been made. Most of these improvements push the feel of the lesser A6's to feel like the former top of the range -- and then push it just a little higher (these comments relate to the luxury side). Moreover, some of these self same improvements (to the suspension, unsprung weight and body/chassis stiffness) also improve the handling and drivability of the cars too.

    The 2002, while NOT totally new, is a big step forward in the evolution of the A6. The 2001 A6 was little changed from the 1999 and 2000's, the 2002 is a much bigger change, both cosmetically and engineering wise.

    A 2001 may have a better discount and therefore may be more attractive, but a 2002 should not be discounted as a face lift.
  • forex303forex303 Member Posts: 6
    markcincinatti - You've definitely got me sold on a 2002 A6. Provided your info and sources are correct, your explanation of the expected changes is the best, most concise explanation I have seen thus far. Thanks so much for your input. Question still remains, when can I get one? And, in the experience of other Audi owners, do I need to expect to pay MSRP if I intend to buy an A6 2.7T as soon as the new models arrive in the showrooms?
  • timcartimcar Member Posts: 363
    Joe, '02 A6's should be in the showrooms within the next month, or so. Dealers now have all the details including options, packages, etc. Word is prices should be close to '01. In addition to their inventory, dealers can also order an A6 with the specific combination of colors and features you prefer, as long as it's U.S. standard. This should take 3 to 4 months for delivery. If you're interested in this route, you can order a 2002 now. Other folks began placing orders several weeks ago. If your dealer tries to get you to pay extra, smile and say no thank you. It doesn't cost them anything. In fact, it reduces their cost.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,495
    Just got back from a business trip to Europe during which I was issued an Audi A3 (1.9 litre turbodiesel) by the rental car outfit. The thing was a revelation, and having the autobahns to try it out on was a experience as well. The seats were great, the handling solid and the climate control and stereo were well thought of by the people I was meeting with.

    Point being, I'm now an Audi fan. Bought a Lincoln LS with the manual a year or so ago, but haven't been completely satisfied with the power or the fit/finish. Handling is great, but the other "issues" remain. If I want a more powerful car with a manual, the choices are limited. I have serious problems with the BMW "image" -- lots of people buy them in order to own them and be seen in them rather than to drive them. For whatever reason, Audi doesn't come with this kind of baggage, at least in my experience. The A6 looks really nice, and the AWD 2.7T with a manual appears to check all the boxes in my list. I'm a bit concerned with the complexity of AWD and a pair of turbos, but am not planning to do anything for a few years, so we'll wait to see how the long-term reliability works out.

    Here's a question: does Audi offer a European delivery option like BMW does? It would be great to pick up a new car spec'd out exactly as desired at the factory and tour Europe for a week or two prior to having it shipped to the States.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • timcartimcar Member Posts: 363
    As of about 6 months ago, someone who should know said, no. Anyone have better information?
  • chicago27t1chicago27t1 Member Posts: 24
    My dealer(s) in Chicago (Schaumberg and McGrath) told me that they expect the 2002s to arrive in late October or early November.

    I would expect that the new and improved A4s will go for right around sticker, with some dealers trying to get above sticker. Hard to say for the A6s.

    I believe, however, that the big price hike will be in the packaging of options. Options will probably be a la carte, with no celebration packages. In addition, I doubt that they will be offering some of the extremely attractive finance packages such as their current deals that have placed the A6 2.7T within my budget.
  • alphaman81alphaman81 Member Posts: 1
    Does anyone know where I can go to see pictures
    of the 2002 A6 2.7T. I am thinking of the 2.7T but prefer the looks of 4.2.

    Thanks
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Len Hunt, top dog @ Audi of America was recently quoted in the quattro quarterly magazine on the issue of European Delivery -- my take on his words is "no, there is currently no European Audi delivery program -- we're working on changing that." Does this mean sooner or later -- who knows? My take on this subject after having been face to face with the folks in Germany who have marketing responsibility for North America is that "they are busy with other matters and that, while important, European delivery is perhaps not in their top 5 priorities -- but that it is in their top 10."

    If Audi monitors these message boards, I would assume that they don't see much lobbying on this issue, so I suspect it will remain a secondary priority until other "issues" are resolved.

    Talking with the folks in Germany, the issues they were concerned with most involve the product itself. Audis have become more and more popular (both in Germany and the US) and with that popularity comes challenges: marketing, delivery, service, option combinations -- even color combinations and models. There are so many more models of Audi's available elsewhere, so many combinations and permutations to consider for export (and all of the complexities of doing so -- federalization, for example has been a big time consumer; indeed, a reason for the lack of engine transmission combinations that other countries take for granted is "federalization" -- in some respects that is "the" reason there aren't more Audis available with manual transmissions here in America, even though Audi sometimes claims Americans want automatic transmissions).

    I too have thought it would be really a great experience to buy the car in the US, pick it up and drive it in Germany and have it shipped home. But, I will be patient, as I know Audi wants to "do it right."
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    As I mentioned in an earlier post, the 2002 A6 3.0 and 2.7T feels AND looks a lot closer to a 2001 A6 4.2 than in previous years. If you have liked the looks of the 4.2, you will almost certainly like the looks of a 2002 2.7T. The 2002 4.2 and S6 Avant are less changed (cosmetically), IMO, than the other two US bound variants.

    I wonder if there will be a 2.9T? It would probably have 300 HP (or more) and that would make it even harder to justify the 4.2 on the engine alone. Of course, perhaps the 4.2 engine would be pushed further and the 4.2 and S6 cranked WAY WAY up. As the Everly Bros said (I think) Dream, Dream, Dream.
  • bertram60bertram60 Member Posts: 113
    Mark, I am not sure that the cross-drilled KVR rotors are the fix. In speaking with KVR they assumed that the warpage was due to the high heating and improper cooling (be it deep water or what ever). They actually suggested the big brake kit, but I asked them about any other solutions, and they said try the cross drilling.

    One of my concerns (and my dealers) is that Audi will then excluded the brakes from the Audi Advantage service if they've been modified. While I agree that I would rather pay to fix the problem once and for all, I'm a little concerned that if the cross-drilled's don't work, I'm on the hook for brakes.

    Maybe I'm trying to justify it, but I have a feeling the big brake kit (or S8/S6 conversions) may be our best bet, but I don't think Audi is willing to pay for the conversion, and cover it under AA.

    I also agree with you in that I love my Audi, and will buy another when I'm done with this one (probably sooner than later). Champion Motors has been spectacular to deal with and has made every effort (within Audi's guidelines) to fix everything. By far, this is still the best sport sedan I've ever driven.
  • trejos28trejos28 Member Posts: 93
    Just took delivery. Silver/tungsten gray - 2.8. Anyone in the Ark-La-Tex area, please stop by Moffitt Mazda/Audi/VW in Shreveport, Louisiana. Ask for Jim Bucher. Proud to be an Audi owner!
  • mmcbride1mmcbride1 Member Posts: 861
    New A6 and a new 3 series? Sounds good to me.
  • trejos28trejos28 Member Posts: 93
    I actually didn't go with the 3-Series. Couldn't come to terms with the BMW dealer. I didn't like the numbers. They were nice about it though. Simply the A6 was the better deal..more car, etc.
  • mmcbride1mmcbride1 Member Posts: 861
    A6 better deal, more car... That's how I felt about the A4 vs 325i. While I do think the 325i is a *little bit* more car than the A4, it's surely not $3-5k more car.

    I'm quite happy with my A4. I'd get another in a second. And if I were looking at the 5 series, I'd most definitely get an A6 instead. Ditto A8 and 740iL (I love the way the A8's look, although I don't ever see myself driving something that big).

    As it stands, I'm eying a possible 2004 S4 Avant as my next car :)
  • mmcbride1mmcbride1 Member Posts: 861
    You ordered the 3 series, right? Did the dealer change his numbers, or did you not agree on a purchase price ahead of time?

    I'm just curious...
  • trejos28trejos28 Member Posts: 93
    When the numbers were set a few months ago when I ordered the 325i I was told the lease rates would "probably" change. Probably salesman error in saying something like that; not sure, I'm definetely not a car buying pro.

    Nevertheless, they didn't and I noticed a reluctance to negotiate. Of course, they were more than willing to do so the day after I called off the deal.

    So instead of $1,700 down, $564 a month for 36 months (a number many on the lease and 3-Series boards said was very questionable on a $31,000 car, especially with the great deals on the 330i), I got the A6, around $34,000, for $496 a month, $0 down. And on top of that several friends of mine have/had Audis and they love them.
  • mmcbride1mmcbride1 Member Posts: 861
    And now you get Audi's biggest advantage - Quattro. I think Quattro is amazing, in the wet, snow, or dry.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    This board is mainly an Audi [A6] love fest, but be that as it may -- and, no matter how you feel about BMW's, around here (southern Ohio) they are really really expen$ive. We have two Audi dealers and two BMW dealers (and two Porsche dealers, two Volvo dealers and one Mercedes, Jaguar, Rolls Royce and Saab dealership [for each brand]). Whenever I talk with my BMW driving friends, who generally give me grief about my Audi, I am always amazed that not only do their cars list for higher bucks (and have lower content -- remember quattro) the dealers basically don't discount much (for example, my friend bought a 740i short wheelbase and the discount off sticker was $1,000, then with some "haggling" $1,500 off). The only way to get the BMW for a reasonable monthly lease payment was to go with 10,000 miles per year, too.

    I almost always go test drive a BMW when I get ready to purchase a new car, and I must admit on a dry pavement day they are "incredible" (but not ultimate) driving machines. I even drove the new 3 series with the fake all wheel drive system and it was VERY nice -- but yumpin' yiminnie -- the price compared to -- well anything that Audi has that is in the approximate body/frame size is, well, not comparable.

    A 5 series, optioned out -- with the 6 cylinder engine -- is within a couple hundred dollars of an A6 4.2 (and I'm talking MSRP, not discounted). Comparing a 540 to a 4.2, the 540 starts "tickling the underbelly of an A8!"

    Yep BMW's are really really nice -- but for the money (once you've compared them to Audis -- plus quattro) -- they just seem overpriced or undervalued.

    I know I know -- but I would just kick myself if I bought a 530 when I knew I could have 4.2 or a 2.7T and gas and insurance and a little "mad" money left over each month.

    Apologies to BMW lovers, because I do think the cars are terrific -- if money was no object.
  • mmcbride1mmcbride1 Member Posts: 861
    I couldn't have said it better myself. I think Audis are tremendous values for the money when you compare them to MB and BMW.
  • trejos28trejos28 Member Posts: 93
  • gooddesigngooddesign Member Posts: 34
    Here it comes. I am dropping off my baby ('98 2.8Q) tomorrow for the following "issues".

    1. Replace defective stereo (volume knob no longer controls volume).

    2. Fix the loud creaking / squeaking noise coming from my front suspension (too loud to have clients or even friends in the car).

    3. Wiper fluid leaking (possible pump failure).

    4. Brake Service

    5. Confirm that headlights are aligned (they are Xenon - incredibly bright - I'm still getting flashed).

    Here's my question: Now that the warranty is expired, what are the odds of seeing a "good will" discount on the obvious things, like the suspension, which failed way too soon.

    I'm getting a good deal on the replacement stereo, which was quoted around $89.00 (originally $400-$500) but honestly, how many stereos go defective after three years? I think that they're just embarrassed about this item.

    While I don't expect the dealer to feel responsible for off-warranty items, they are locally owned by the same dealer who serviced our Nissans (2), Subaru (1) and Volkswagens (4). Has anyone experienced a lateral loyalty discount from an "umbrella" dealer? Is there a win/win scenario here?

    I would like some honest opinions other than the usual "the dealer owes you nothing!" and "that should be a recall." Please help.

    (I will post a follow up in the next day or two when I get the "word" from the dealer.)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    You will pay for all "maintenance" items -- is my best guess. You shouldn't pay for the suspension -- of course that is my opinion. The other stuff, we need more data from you.

    Apparently, you have more than 50,000 miles on the car, but you didn't say how much. If you are WAY OVER on miles, I would think your chances of "free" work are diminished.

    If, on the other hand, you have run out of time and not out of miles on your A6's factory warranty, I would think you have a pretty good chance of having everything taken care of -- for good will (no charge, that is), etc.

    Is the car is good shape? Have you maintained the car at equal to or better than factory requirements? Are you your dealer's "best customer" (or at least a really good customer?). Have any of the problems you site been brought to the dealer's attention PRIOR to the expiration of the warranty?

    If you see the direction these questions are headed, I would offer the following opinion: You may have to pay for everything -- letter of the "law" kind of thing. Or, you may find yourself being the recipient of some good will on Audi's (not your dealer's) part. Generally dealers (unless they have done something "wrong") can't "eat" too much.

    I wouldn't "suggest" to them that if they don't comp all this stuff that you will never buy another Audi -- most businesses don't like dealing that way. I wouldn't want a customer, personally, that would threaten me (and I am speaking from both the dealer's and the Company's point of view). Of course, I don't work for either and their situation and the circumstances surrounding your issues may merit either your ire or them standing their ground.

    Give us some more details, please. And remember you will catch more whatevers with sugar than vinegar.
  • stringer2stringer2 Member Posts: 2
    Here are my observations after giving up my BOW and driving my Audio for about a month now.

    1 - A6 feels bigger, and bigger is better
    2 - A6 feels more luxurious, and it is
    3 - A6 4.2 sucks down gas big time
    4 - A6 I sit higher and higher is better
    5 - A6 4.2 - exclusive - I have yet to see another on the road. Only 2.8s and 2.7s.
    6 - A6 insurance went up over $400 per year
    7 - A6 lease deal was 1,000 times better then what BMW was offering at the time
    8 - A6 is a sporty luxury car
    9 - BMW is a luxurious sports car
    10 - My kids love it especially the auto sun shades.
  • danielp1danielp1 Member Posts: 9
    Sorry for the diversion in topic, but I thought maybe some of you A6 owners may have been previous 100 owners. I have a 1992 100CS and I just want to know if there is a secret to removing the rear headrests. Any help would be appreciated.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Call Bill Fleiman at Northland Audi @ 513-851-5900 if you can't get help on this board -- I had a 1992 and a 1993 100 and I can't remember any time I needed to remove the headrests, sorry.
  • jason64jason64 Member Posts: 50
    Hi Mark, this is my first post on this board. I've been reading this baord for a few weeks now and it is my impression that you seem to have a lot of experiences with Audi's and you are very articulate about your first hand experience. I was wondering before you bought your A6, did you consider any one of the Japanese competitors like the Lexus GS, Nissan Maxima, or Acura's? If not, what were your other choices? Thanks for your response.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I work with about 30 people most of whom are under the age of 40 and have relatively high incomes (well, until the recession hit, but that's another story). So, I helped several of the folks who were in car shopping mode put together some "test drive report cards" for the cars they would be test driving.

    One of the things that we considered was "monthly lease payment" -- as literally everyone I know or am related to leases their cars. I think I may know one person who "buys" -- in cash -- a new car every 3 or 4 years, so #1 on the list was lease payment (and ALWAYS no money down).

    The purpose of the lease payment is to narrow the field down -- among other things.

    Recently, I participated in a test drive adventure for a person who ultimately purhcased a BMW 740i (short wheelbase). I also participated in a test drive adventure for a person who ultimately purchased an Audi A4 and an Audi A6 2.7T. Other test drives which used my "test drive report cards" but that I did not participate in yielded a New Beetle (VW) purchase and a really really good condition used Acura coupe.

    Let's use one of the examples:

    Lease payment amount per month (target) $500/including tax (5% tolerance, meaning for the perfect car $525).

    Lease term (target) 36 months (10% tolerance, meaning 39 months would be OK)

    Stick shift first choice

    Sporty

    Four doors

    Front wheel or all wheel drive perhaps RWD with traction control (Cincinnati has moderate winters)

    Some creature comforts, e.g. heated seats, nice stereo, power windows, etc.

    Safety features (airbags, traction control or stability program, ABS etc.)

    "Sex appeal" (attractive -- very subjective)

    Warranty / Service availability and reputation

    "Q" factor -- a "sense" that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts; or some feeling that the car has capabilities that it's individual component pieces would seem incapable of producing -- almost a "I wonder how they do that" factor

    ====

    OUR "seems reasonable list" (not my list):

    Audi A4 (1.8T, 2.8 and demo S4)
    BMW 3 series -- including the AWD version
    Chrylser 300M w/sport package
    Honda Accord (never drove, lack of sexiness -- thought the car would be boring)
    Lexus (two of them)
    Mazda (626 -- never drove, sexiness factor again)
    Saab 93
    Subaru (never drove, couldn't get over the "lack of sexiness" factor)
    Toyota (never drove, thought it would be a Lexus light -- and lacked sexiness)
    Volvo (with all-wheel-drive)
    VW Passat (all wheel drive)
    Mercedes C class (never drove, least expensive one exceeded criteria above)
    Acura (never drove, after having driven the Lexus -- not a good reason, I know)

    =====

    We drove as many cars, back to back as is humanly possible -- and over the "exact same" route. We took along a "test" CD to try out the stereo system and played the same song with the balance and tone controls set as close as possible to the other test vehicles.

    As I recall, this took one entire Saturday and two evenings after work to complete. I drove the cars, my friend drove the cars -- sometimes a saleperson went with us, sometimes we went alone. As I recall the Japanese brands always had someone ride with us, which we did not care for as they usually talk the entire time. The talkative salesperson in the back seat, I am convinced, does more to delay purchases than encourage them.

    The short short list was pretty easy to come up with -- number one on the list turned out to be the S4 (but then price got in the way). The BMW was high on the list, but then at a price point, performance got in the way (when compared to a 1.8T @ 170HP, all the toys including sport package, audio, Xenons, ESP, stick shift, etc. -- the BMW couldn't cut it without a huge step up in price.) The Volvo, for some reason was a real turn off -- perhaps as the salesman almost tried to talk us out of it. . . .well, you understand.

    That new BMW - killer Lexus (IS300) was a lot of fun, but seemed less sporty than its looks would lead one to believe, or as my friend said "all yak and no shak" -- I think I understand that. The Luxus probably had the best sound system.

    Saab -- not much sexiness for my 31 year old friend (even though his wife thought it was cute).

    So, to make a very long story short -- the Passat, BMW, Audi A4 and for weirdness, the Chrysler 300M made "second" looks worthwhile for some reason.

    Net net: a "custom ordered 2001 Audi A4 1.8Tquattro sport with ALL available options" -- no money down, 39 months and $424 per month.

    The A6 2.7T was compared with a BMW 530i -- no contest, not even close -- my friend leased the 2.7T.

    The 740i -- that's another long story -- especially when you venture into a test drive of the Mercedes S class.

    Hope this helps.
  • forex303forex303 Member Posts: 6
    Mark, I see that you've provided a lot of knowledgable info to townhall participants on both the A6 and S4 pages. Wondering if you'd like to render an opinion on my situation?

    I thought for sure that I was sold on the A6 2.7T, but made the "mistake" today of test driving a 2001 S4 w/tiptronic. Needless to say a thrill of a ride. Here's the dilemma. The dealership I visited has 12 loaded 2001 A6 2.7T's sitting in the lot, so I know they're ready to deal. I'm guessing that I can get a $46,825 MSRP for around $43,000 (about the top of my comfort range considering taxes and all). In the meantime, you've said a lot about the expected improvements in the 2002 A6 2.7T to make me feel like it would be smarter to wait rather than settle on a 2001 model. However, my fear is that I do wait for the 2002 model only to discover that they're selling for upwards of $48,000 with little bargaining to be done (price now getting outside of what I wanted to spend).

    Meanwhile, this 2001 S4 has a sticker of $41,925 and I think I can probably get it for around $40,000 (or the big banner on the car says lease for $500/mth, 36 mths). What to do?

    I love all of the amenities in the A6 and the extra cargo and rear passenger room. But realistically, 90% of the time I am in my car alone commuting and the S4 would be suitable enough (I have 2 small children and only occasionally have more than 2 adults in my car at the same time). The expected $3000 price difference between the A6 and the S4 is not critical to me. Do you see better value in one alternative versus the other 2001 A6 2.7T ($43,000) vs. 2001 S4 ($40,000)? Or, will the 2002 A6 2.7T really be worth the wait and the extra cash?

    Thanks in advance. Any other readers, if you care to give me our thoughts it would be much appreciated. I will post this same message on the S4 board.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The performance (acceleration, ie) of both of these cars is supposed to be similar. There are reasons to consider both alternatives (or perhaps all three alternatives better said). In my case, the back seat is of some fair amount of importance -- when I take clients to lunch or golf for example.

    The S4 -- for me -- would be a blast but more so if it had a manual transmission.

    My current fave, actually is what I am calling S4-lite -- which is to say a fully loaded 2002 A4 3.0 quattro with the 6 speed manual, 17" sport suspension package and all the luxury add-ons (this at this moment in time is the best of all worlds, in my opinion).

    However, a 2001 2.7T A6 for a really really good lease price for 36 or fewer months would be tempting because we do operate (well most of us do, anyway) in a world where "price IS a factor."

    If money is not a factor, things might be different. Based on what I have driven and what I have read, I would TODAY go with a fully decked out Pearl White with Grey Leather ALL optioned 2002 A4 3.0 with sport suspension and 6 spd manual tranny for 30 or 36 months -- and never look back.

    The 2002 A4 does have just enough more back seat to allow me to take clients and co workers to lunch or a golf outing (and there is enough trunk space for their clubs too).

    Hope this helps.
  • jason64jason64 Member Posts: 50
    Mark, I understand your passion for Audi's and I understand you will only lease them. But if you were to purchase a car and keep it for good (10yr+), which car would you buy and why? Thanks.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    A 2002 (TODAY, ie) Audi S8. And I would buy the best extended warranty on the planet earth.
  • gooddesigngooddesign Member Posts: 34
    To answer your questions: 47k miles, very nice condition except for scuff at lower front bumper (groan) and perfect maintenance. BUT, it's a '98 so the warranty expired at 36k.

    They took care of NOTHING but I didn't threaten them either. Maybe I should try hardball. Or maybe I should just buy an Acura.

    I picked up my car last night and wasn't completely happy. The rebuilt Bose stereo that was to be installed several weeks ago (but never arrived) failed to arrive again, and this time, no one bothered to tell me not to come in.

    I had added some other items to the list to be looked at (brake service light, wiper fluid light, creaking suspension, align headlamps, etc.) whenever the radio came in and they had told me that the stereo shipment wouldn't arrive until this week. We scheduled a date a week in advance for me to come in.

    Instead of calling me to let me know that the part was still on back order, they let me come in (no loaner so I had to bum a ride), made me wait until afternoon, called and talked me into spending $500 on a brake job, $180 on a defective headlamp washer fluid pump and $375 on a lower control arm replacement.

    They called back to say the job was done. I then asked if the radio is installed yet, they say that it never arrived.

    MUST.CONTROL.FIST.OF.DEATH. (...as the Dilbert saying goes.)

    Making a long story short (ha), I picked up the car right before closing and drove home. I can feel a big difference in the brakes, which is good. I'm still afraid to buy generic brakes after a bad Midas incident with my old '85 VW GTI. The Audi price seems incredibly steep but what are you going to do? These pads better never squeak.

    My wife and I go to dinner and the first thing she says is, "What's that noise?" There was still a very audible creaking sound (quieter though) coming from the front end. Don't the service techs test drive the cars after the work is done?

    I also had the service history for the car printed out for my records since I plan to own this car for a long time. To make matters worse, the 45k mile service that I thought I had performed in June seems to have been performed three months before I bought the car in March. Did I get bamboozled? My visits to the dealer were not documented on the print out either. I need to make a phone call apparently.

    The alignment of the headlamps was not brought up or mentioned on the invoice. I have no idea how they could have forgotten this since they had my itemized fax in their hands. Perhaps the headlamp alignment was fine(?)

    And of course, I still can't listen to my radio.

    Now for the icing. Last night my wife is letting me have it for all this trouble and for spending $1000 on a car that's "ONLY 3 YEARS OLD." She's primarily upset because I have always had my service performed at the dealer instead of at Joe Schmoe's Imports and claims that I waste money at the Dealer. I can't argue so I keep my mouth shut like a good hubby.

    Then, this morning, she calls me from the side of the highway; her '99 Subaru Forester's transmission blew up while in the fast lane during rush hour. She's stranded for two hours until Subaru tows her to the dealer.

    Are you ready for this? The Subaru people tell her that someone (apparently the Indy Lube that changed her oil two days ago) drained her differential and that her transmission is toast. A mere $4,600 will fix it.

    Two cars down within 24 hours. I challenge anyone to beat my luck this month. I'm interested in seeing how fast the Lube people respond and how the Subaru service compares to Audi's service.

    In the meantime, I'm going to professionally frame that Free Car Wash Voucher that my dealer gave me last night. It's too valuable to me to ever use...
  • ajaymeajayme Member Posts: 74
    I could never understand why anyone would take their "specialty" car (BMW,AUDI,SUBARU,ETC) to the chain oil places when many of the dealers advertise Internet Specials, i.e. BMW-328 oil change $45, Audi $55, etc. It just doesn't make sense. They even screwed my Taurus oil change years ago. They do have insurance so you'll get your money back but what a hassle. Good luck to you-I know you've learned your lesson.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I thought the Audi Advantage until recently was 3 years or 50,000 miles. You indicated, gooddesign, that your warranty died at 36K, yet your car "only" has 47K miles on it.

    Now, I can and have done the math -- you are technically out of the 3/50K warranty. But, I do believe that you are "entitled" to some relief -- perhaps instead of a $1,000 bill a $500 bill. And, with the lack of dealer "cooperation" (no call re parts not in, etc.), I would think that an Audi "advocate" would or should be helpful to you. They exist, and so long as you don't dump on them -- remember until they hear from you, they are NOT the bad person -- they generally want to help Audi strengthen the reputation of BOTH their cars and their dealers.

    The person I communicate with is named Carole Glynn -- she is a long time Audi employee and her mission in life is to create and retain LOYAL Audi owners, like me.

    I too have had my share of PRODUCT problems -- I bet the Mercedes, Lexis, Acuras and BMW's all have their problems too. In my opinion, it is how problems are handled, not the lack of them (although that WOULD be nice, if true) -- yet, I have virtually always had my problems resolved and my "faith" in the integrity of the company (Audi) undamaged. My dealer, whom I endorse, is not perfect -- but they do "fix their foul ups." So, not only do I "tolerate" the imperfect machines created by humans, I also find little to fault in the service I receive from MY dealer.

    Reading your words, I am close to shocked and apalled at the treatment you received. On the other hand, there are two sides to every story. I tend to totally accept your account however, as I have heard far too many tales regarding dealers (of Audis AND other brands) than I would think are even remotely acceptable.

    The book, "BLOWN TO BITS" has a chapter about auto dealerships -- it begins "Car Dealers are sitting ducks. . ." your story underscores this point.

    I would, politely and professionally, NOT TAKE THIS type of treatment -- I would explain the situation ( minus the Subaru, which is another issue to be taken up with quickie lube ) to Audi and an Audi advocate.

    I certainly cannot assure you that all will be fixed -- but I suspect you will get satisfaction.

    Please keep us posted, as I HOPE Audi monitors this board.

    Good luck.

    PS I agree with the guy about the quickie lube -- avoid them at ALL costs. Go to a dealer.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Last Friday, my 5 page letter with "full quotes" from this message board and AudiWorld were mailed to Audi of America -- with a letter, from me, requesting help and resolution. While my concerns were stated, I did not "[non-permissible content removed] and moan" or threaten -- indeed I professed my enjoyment of my Audi Experiences and my intention to purhcase future Audis within a 12 - 15 month time frame (my wife) and 18+ month time frame (myself).

    Today, the service manager from Northland Audi here in Cincinnati called me to tell me that my letter had been seen and circulated within Audi. They have a "let's try this and see if it works" solution. I am not quite "delighted" -- but I am very pleased with the quick response and obvious concern -- and the obvious desire to "get it right."

    Here is what they are doing: they have a "Hunter" (brand) machine that will be "loaned" to the dealership -- this machine turns the rotors while they are HOT and ON THE CAR. The net of this is to dynamically hone the rotor in a "live" condition. Kinda like the difference between static and dynamic wheel balancing. From this point on, ANYTHING I say I will be making up, so I will not say anything more about the actual procedure.

    If this "treatment" remedies the purring or shuddering brakes, my dealership says they will actually purchase one of these Hunter machines -- so they may have it permanently. Hmmm, guess that means they suspect it will be a source of revenue (via the Audi Advantatge maybe?) and customer satisfaction.

    They said they would call me next week to tell me when to bring the car in for the "treatment." Now, one other thing, the service manager says this is "the engineers' solution" -- he said it is possible it will work and it is possible it will not work. I appreciate the candor, frankly.

    And finally, while I do feel a bit like a Guinea pig, I also feel like this is progress.
  • gooddesigngooddesign Member Posts: 34
    It was Jiffy Lube, not the brand I mentioned above. My apologies. But that is a Subie topic.

    I will keep you posted on my progress with Audi and thanks, Mark, for the great advice and support! I could very easily be a loyal "Audi Man" if given half a chance.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    July 27, 2001

    Ms. Carol Glynn
    Audi Brand Loyalty Manager
    3800 Hamlin Road
    Auburn Hills, MI 48326

    Dear Ms. Glynn:

    I wrote to you on May 29th complimenting employees from one of your dealerships, Joseph Northland Audi, in Cincinnati. Since that time, I have had additional service experiences and they too have exceeded expectations. The people at this dealership are a "joy" to do business with.

    As I mentioned in my May 29th letter, I had been experiencing brake problems with my 2001 A6 4.2 - and as you may recall, this is my second A6 4.2 (I had a 2000 model too), and the other 4.2 also had similar problems. The dealership did replace the front rotors and later replaced the front pads. I also replaced all four tires and had a four-wheel alignment performed.

    The replacement brakes, for a while, seemed to be an improvement over the factory originals, but the problem has returned. I began a search on the Internet for new (non-OEM) brake rotors. I also began participating regularly in two Audi A6 message boards or forums as AudiWorld.com calls them. I generally "converse" with my fellow Audi owners at length about my enjoyment of Audis and my praise for Northland Audi - especially on edmunds.com town hall.

    After my concerns that my brakes, while apparently capable of stopping the car adequately, "did not feel like the brakes that should be on a car listing for over $56,000," resurfaced, I was again determined to get to the bottom of the issue. I was also resolute that I would buy (out of my own pocket), if necessary, new brakes for my 8 month old Audi. My lease still has 21 months to go, and I am dissatisfied with the brakes.

    Make no mistake; I am only dissatisfied with this one component of my experience with this car. As noted, the dealership still is ranked, by me, as a "10." The management, sales and service people are beyond reproach - nothing being said herein is any indication of dissatisfaction with them, in any way.

    Moreover, it is my intent to lease yet another Audi product within the next 18 - 21 months, as has been my pattern ever since I got my first new Audi - a 1978 Audi 5000 (from the same dealership, by the way). My wife still loves her 2001 225HP TT - and she wants another TT (her lease is up in 15 months).

    However, therefore, notwithstanding, it has become virtually a quest of mine to "get to the bottom" of the brakes on this car - as the phrase goes " . . .something just ain't right!"

    Other than repeat myself, I can think of no better, clearer or more powerful way to communicate this message than sharing the results of my Internet surfing with you. The following quotes are from two Audi Fan web sites; and, while there are certainly complaints about Audi's lightly sprinkled throughout these sites, these sites are overwhelmingly populated by people like me, people who are big fans of the Audi marquis.

    After reviewing the following posts from these Audi A6 message boards, I request your empathy and your assistance in remedying the issue (with respect to my "shuddering" front brakes).

    Thanks for your time and help. And thanks again to the great folks at Joseph Northland Audi here in Cincinnati.

    Very truly yours,

    Attachments -- directly copied quotes from edmunds and Audiworld followed -- for brevity's sake I will not reproduce them -- but I sent three pages worth and then later found many more quotes that were "dead on" the A6 (and apparently A8 and S4) issues I have (and had).

    Hope this is helpful for you, if you need to deal with the fine folks at Audi of America -- I can only speak from my experience, but THEY HAVE BEEN SUPER!
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    And. . . Audi of America's responsiveness continues to meet and exceed expectations.

    Minutes ago I received a call from Audi of America -- this call and the one from the local dealership service manager marked my second call from "Audi" today.

    They basically said the same thing that the dealer said -- but indicated they wanted to personally assure me that my letter (see above) had made the rounds within Audi and that they were going to stay on the case until the issues were resolved.

    I have owned my own business since 1985 -- my business is 100% a service business. I have found that customers or clients want perfection, may even hope for it and sometimes even EXPECT it (rarely). Yet, the realities of the world are that perfection happens rarely, very rarely -- and most of the time people accept that "things aren't always perfect." What they do EXPECT and each in their own way DEMAND is an "appropriate" response to the lack of perfection or error or product issue, etc.

    The net is: I wish Audis were perfect (like my customers wished my services were perfect), I know they will not be perfect (ditto my customers) -- I judge my vendors (as my customers judge me) not by them being perfect (or not) but how they handle the imperfections (how problems or issues are resolved). With respect to Audis, I have been and continue to be loyal to the brand (and "vote" for the brand with my dollars) not because they build perfect machines, but because of the way they treat me and deal with the issues that come up with imperfect humans and machines.

    The folks at Audi have been Extraordinary in this aspect of my relationship with them. They truly exceed expectations as a company, even in the face of selling products that sometimes break -- and they exceed expectations with great people (like Ms. Glynn, see letter above to know who I am talking about).

    Thought you'd like to know. And of course I will let you all know how the "procedure" works on my A6's brakes.
  • srusmantijosrusmantijo Member Posts: 3
    Folks,

    I enjoy reading all of the postings regarding A6. I'm planning to lease a 2001 A6 Avant Quattro Wagon with Celebration Package, ESP, Bose, CD changer and Xenon headlights.

    I've done 2 comparison on pricing. According to Audi web site, the MSRP is $40,900. From Edmunds, the car with the same equipment has an invoice of $35,991; MSRP $40,185 and TMV $37,720.

    I've never leased a vehicle before. I always bought them, so I know how to calculate the payment. With a $2,500 down, 15K miles/year, 36 months lease, how much should I expect to pay? I know that I can get the car between $575-$600 (incl. 8% CA tax). I would really appreciate some advice on the lease calculation.

    By the way, I have considered other cars on the same price range as well. With the same parameters above, each dealership told me that they all have different residual values and leasing companies, so I can't really make any comparison at all.
    My partner is getting his 2001 Pathfinder, fully loaded with options. With the same price range, he expects to pay $465/month.

    I'd appreciate advice on this leasing calculation. Thanks again.
  • chicago27t1chicago27t1 Member Posts: 24
    I should point you to some of my lengthier postings on this topic, but here goes:

    There are four variables used in calculating a lease price. They are the net capital cost of the car (sales price, plus taxes, less down payments), lease term and money factor. You do not have the last two; however, from my recent leasing experience (leased a 2001 2.7T three weeks ago), I believe the residual is about 56% (of the MSRP) and the money factor with their current promotion on 2001s is .0012 (multiply this by 24 to get the APR = 2.9%).

    OK, here's the equation:

    Monthly Lease Pymnt = Monthly Depreciation + Monthly Finance Charge

    Monthly Depreciation = (Net Cap Cost - Residual)/term

    Monthly Finance Charge = (Net Cap Cost + Residual) * Money Factor

    Let's assume the following:

    1) You're getting the car for 2% over invoice (we'll ignore the Edmunds TMV because dealers are trying to unload their 2001s and you don't need to pay the 5% over invoice suggested by the TMV).

    Anyway, if invoice is $35,991, 2% over invoice will be $36,711.

    2) The residual is 56% of the MSRP. If this is the case, your residual will be $22,503.

    3) California sales tax is computed by taking 8% of the difference between sales price and residual(i.e., you pay tax on the amount of the car you use/depreciate). I don't know if this is the case in California. In Illinois, we are forced to pay tax on the full sales price of the car.

    So, your tax will be $36,711 - $22,503 = $14,208 * .08 = $1137.

    OK, now for the lease payment:

    You net cap cost will be $35,348
    This is calculated by adding your sales price ($36,711) and your sales tax ($1137), and then subtracting your down payment ($2500).

    So your monthly depreciation is $35,348 (net cap cost) - $22,503 (residual) and dividing the sum by 36 (your lease term in months.

    Thus, your monthly depreciation is $356.81

    Your monthly finance payment is $35,348 (net cap cost) + $22,503 (residual), with the sum multiplied by .0012 (the money factor)

    Thus your monthly finance charge is $69.42

    Your monthly lease payment is $426.23!

    Some of my assumptions may be wrong and, as a result, will change the overall calculation.
    For example, California may not apply taxes in the manner of my assumption. The money factor and residual may also be different. But I think you get the idea.

    The important thing is to know the formula so that you don't just pull a payment out of the air, leaving your salesman to walk away with a whole bunch of cash in their pocket.

    You cannot control the residual or the money factor. You can, however, control the sales price and the term. Negotiate the sales price as if you were buying. You may also find out that your payment drops as your term extends from to 39 or 48 months (while the corresponding change in residual is not significant). For the pros and cons of different lease strategies, go back to postings 1436-1480 (especially 1458). These postings were the center of a very lengthy and occasionally excrutiating lease discussion.

    Good luck.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Although Audi is apparently using its financing arm to help move 2001's in anticipation of the upcoming 2002's -- it is POSSIBLE that a 2002 would have an attractive lease (not purchase) payment due to the fact that end of model year cars often have a steep drop in residual value (the percentage -- see above posting).

    Although Audi seems to be assisting its customers with attractive money factors which can offset the lower residual of "last year's" model.

    My friend, who used to own a dealership, told me to look very carefully at leasing at year end, to make certain I did not lease a vehicle with numbers (residual and/or money factor) that would make an early bail out expensive.

    I assume that 56% is a reasonable residual for some term, but if the true residual is 52%, this car will be yours for the full term -- as you will be upside down for virtually the entire term.

    I leased a car from my dealer friend (who is no longer the owner of the dealership) a few years back. I was leasing a brand new car at the very end of the model year -- for whatever reason he suggested that I could get a brand new car at the very beginning of the model year for the same or less money.

    We leased a 1998 Audi A4 2.8 for slightly less (under $10.00) than a 1997 A4 -- the term was 36 months. We happen to hit on the part of the formula wherein the residual of the 1998 overcame both the "discount" on the 1997 and for some reason the money factor was the same on both vehicles. In this example, if we were buying the cars in cash, the 1997 would have been the bargain.

    None of this is meant to suggest that the 2001 deals are not good deals -- I do believe they are. It is meant to urge you to get as much information as you can. The bird in the hand, may indeed be worth two in the bush -- or you may find as we did in the example above that we actually got a marginally better deal on the new car (and this permitted us to bail out of a 36 month lease at month 31 or 32 -- when we traded the A4 in on a 2000 TT).

    One more factor, the 2002's may be slightly higher priced, although I keep reading about the strong dollar making European products increasingly attractive -- and I'll wager than Uncle Alan Greenspan will cut rates again on August 21, which will probably strengthen our dollar again (even against the DM -- and especially against the Euro).

    Just some thoughts for your digestion.
  • brucec35brucec35 Member Posts: 246
    About your whittling down of a list of good cars....it's a good list to start with. But I'm curious how y'all arrived at the Audi A4 1.8T quattro? Don't get me wrong, I like the car, for the price, but how did a car on it's last model year, with adequate but not stellar resale to begin with, and a 0-60 time of 7.6 seconds with a manual get picked as a "sporty, sexy" choice? With a few options, the A4 is probably driving out at over 30K. Yes, it's cheaper than the 325i, but if you lay off the silly options, you can get a nicely equipped manual sedan (sport pkg, prem pkg, leatherette) for about $34,500. Factoring in resale value I'd say the Bimmer is the better choice. Read any car mag....looks, handling, power (0-60mph in 7.1 sec), seat comfort, shifter operation, engine refinement, safety...all seem superior. Audi's are no reliablity prize winners, either. I assume that with the cars selected, the Bimmer would fall about in the middle of the range of price. I see '97 A4's selling for $12k-$14K here. BMW's are more like $18,000. And that's not considering that the Bimmers are the OLD style, which your A4 will be in about 2 months. As a practical, luxury oriented car, the A4 is arguably better. But not as a sports sedan. Perhaps "sporty" wasn't a big priority?
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The S4 was "the" choice for my friend -- with one 2 year old and one on the way, a new Harely, a new Jeep Grand and a new boat, the S4 was out of the price range at that moment in time. Another crieteria that weighed heavily was the quattro factor -- which the BMW didn't have, although we did drive the rear biased all wheel drive BMW which was even more per month than the S4 and no where near as zippy or sporty.

    With a sport suspension and testing virtually all the cars on the same route, the BMW probably went into our 15MPH "test" corner at 50MPH, the Audi did the same thing at perhaps 46+MPH. Important, yes (in racing very important) -- but real world important? And, not as important as trying the same thing with both cars on a non-dry pavement (which, in Cincinnati is a matter of waiting a day). In this case the quattro (any quattro) blows the BMW away [in handling or better said "roadholding"] (and both cars have their own virtion of ESP or DSC or DSP or whatever BMW calls their version).

    So then we came back to the monthly payment factor -- the Audi is (in Cincinnati) significantly more affordable. This does not make it a better car, not at all. But my friend (me too) has to live in a world where the words "for the money" have to be factored into the consideration.

    Perhaps (probably) a 330 with the sport pkg and all wheel drive is measurably better than a 1.8T or even the then current 2.8. But, FOR THE MONEY, you could lease an S4 and keep the car and the motorcylce in gas for the difference. And, although the current S4 is pretty skimpy in the back seat department, it is very much the sportier vehicle. When the new 2003 S4 debuts, I assume the bar will be raised again -- and FOR THE MONEY, if history repeats itself, the S4 will be comparble NOT to the M3 but to the 330 (all wheel drive). And the S4 will probably blow the 330 away in features and performance. Price, it always gets me (and my friend).

    The net of this, again, was that the 1.8T was virtually "as good as" the 325 in all aspects (the Q factor hit my friend most strongly after driving the Audi A4), it had all wheel drive and it was a bunch less money. Since he wanted an S4 -- in the worst way (but not quite enough to give up the Harley) this was, like most things in life, HIS compromise -- not mine. We may disagree with his final decision -- personally I would have sold the Harley and gone with the S4 -- but he checked off the report card time after time and the A4, in the final analysis, "won" the most votes and he put his money down.

    He still wants an S4, though.
  • rodneybarrettrodneybarrett Member Posts: 5
    Just recently purchased a 1998 A6 quattro and it has Eagle RS-A tires on it (two in front are new and the two in the rear are over 60% used).

    I am thinking of putting new tires on. what do you recommend.

    The car will be used for commuting so nothing to high performance. I like a good ride with some handling.

    thanks.
  • jji7363jji7363 Member Posts: 33
    When should the new A6 3.0's begin to arrive? We've been waiting for the new ES300 to bow, but the new design is so bland that we're gravitating toward going ahead on the A6. They're already out in Germany (saw one last month).

    One concern is that the new A4 looks pretty similar to the A6, so it will probably cannibalize A6 sales to some extent. Might be worth waiting a couple of months for this to occur before talking to the dealer about buying an A6. Thoughts?
  • timcartimcar Member Posts: 363
    This would be my choice based on what I know now:


    http://www.tirerack.com/tires/yokohama/yo_avs_db.jsp


    Think Mark has 'em on his car. Ask him.

  • timcartimcar Member Posts: 363
    '02's should start showing up in a couple of months. Maybe a little sooner on the right coast, later on the left.

    Had an ES300. Have a 2.7T. After having driven the two for an extended period, the A6 is a LOT more car. They really aren't in the same class. Or after options, price range.

    02' A6 vs. '02 A4? The A6 will be larger, more luxurious and more costly. It's truly fast with either the 2.7T or 4.2 engines. The A4 is a redesigned (new?) platform. Probably even better handling. You can now actually put adults in the back. If you want/need a larger, more luxurious car, get the A6. If you want the latest platform and everything that goes with a first model year, get the A4. Expect completely new A6 for model year '04.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I do indeed have the Yok AVS db's -- get them.

    And, plus "0" your tires.

    This means, if the A6 currently has 205 x 55 x 16 tires, you would go with 225 x 50 x 16 -- you will have an improvement overall, and the tires "fit" and will not alter the engine management computer or the speedometer.

    The AVS db's are ultra high performance all seasons -- and virtually silent. On a quattro this would virtually eliminate the need for a set of snow tires is much of the US (but not all).

    Car magazine claims totally new A6 (in Europe) will debut as a 2003 -- perhaps / probably that means that Timcar is right -- new A6 in US will be in model year 2004 (but sometimes Audi does odd timing things -- so it is POSSIBLE that a totally new A6 will be here as a 2003.)

    My best guess is that Tim is correct, though.
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