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2010 Ford Fusion vs. Honda Accord and Toyota Camry

2

Comments

  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    Yes, it can. Mechanically the pedal returns, but the resistor unit, the part sending the signal to the PCM for throttle application may stick, telling the PCM to accelerate. In the days of mechanical linkage, I have seen cables bind, causing the throttle to stay open. The difference between the two, is the cable bound one can be pulled back to unstick the throttle, the electronic one cant. With the DBW throttle, applying brake should disengage the throttle, but that has to be programmed in.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,730
    You misunderstood what I said. The throttle had already been released without sticking and while the brakes were being applied, the car began to accelerate again without any accelerator pedal input. This scenario has been reported several times and cannot be blamed on a sticky gas pedal. A faulty sensor - yes, but that's not what Toyota is claiming is the problem with the gas pedal assemblys AFAIK.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    If what you say is correct, and if the mat was on top of the pedal, then what could possibly have happened is the force applied to the gas pedal is causing it to stick. when you press on with your foot, it is pretty much straight on, but the mat would press it down, and sideways at the same time. If the mat is not on the pedal, then who the hell knows. :confuse:
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,730
    No mats - they had already been removed. So again - the floor mats and pedal assembly explain 2 of the 3 reported problems, but not the 3rd one. Consensus is there is an electronic problem, either with a sensor, controller or software and that is the one that Toyota (so far) has not acknowledged.
  • Hackattack- Since you started this thread a while ago, I bet you are relieved that you did not buy the Camry.

    My father-in-law bought an 2010 Camry LE 3 weeks ago, after also test driving the Accord and Fusion.....In light of the recent gas pedal issues, he's now upset he didn't go with Ford ( his 2nd choice).

    Appears the world of Toyota is crumbling further..more bad news for Toyota this evening:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/02/business/main6167391.shtml?tag=stack

    I'm usually partial to Japanese brands, but am very happy to see Ford doing so well lately WITHOUT the help of our tax dollars.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 230
    I'm also glad to see Ford doing well. However, don't be misled on Ford not taking tax dollars. They actually took theirs firts - three years ago. They were actually worse off than GM. But I think Ford now has the opportunity to turn around with the Toyota problems creating new customers for Ford. I was actually waiting for the new sonata, but think I'm going to pass this time around as there are too many new things in this sonata that haven't yet been proven - GDI (germans had their share of problems with this and idk if hyundai will get it right the first time); new transmission (who knows how that will work out); and a new suspension system. I think I'm going to give serious consideration to a 6 cyl mustang as it is going to be about the same price as the sonata SE with the tradeoff being that you get 3/5 mpg less on the mustang, but 100 hp and 100 ft lb torque more than the sonata 4 cylinder.
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    Seriously...first floor mat issues, then pedals, now electronics...gosh, what's next!
  • "Hackattack- Since you started this thread a while ago, I bet you are relieved that you did not buy the Camry"

    Yes I am really happy with the Fusion. The Accord because of problems that Honda would not address was never an option.(I was trading in an 08 Accord) I have been purchasing Japanese for the 16 years and I do have a 08 Tacoma that has been great but this Fusion is really nice and quiet and tight. The only reason I even looked at the Fusion over the Camry was because of this website. It was all over after the test drive. I think Ford has a long way to go on the models that they are not focusing on but I am really impressed with the Fusion, Taraus and F150. The resale price is still a concern for me and I don't think Ford has learned the rental car sale problem yet so I will just let my wife drive it till the resale doesn't matter so much. With Toyota's issue's who know what the resale value of Camry's will be?
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    Well now Steve Wozniak of Apple fame is claiming his Prius runs away sometimes when he uses the cruise control. The NTSB and Japan are now questioning Toyota over the brakes on the Prius disengaging on rough roads. The TCH I had did the same thing, though it sounds like the Prius has it more severe, enough to have caused crashes.

    I am so glad I got rid of the Toyotas when I did.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,730
    However, don't be misled on Ford not taking tax dollars. They actually took theirs firts - three years ago.

    Care to explain this? Ford secured private loans, not Government loans.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 230
    The $5.9 billion going to Ford will help the company shift truck plants to production of cars, affecting about two million units of production and a dozen or more different models, including the Focus, Escape, Mustang, Taurus and F-150 pickup. Ford will also use the money to support development of a range of technologies such as improved internal combustion engines—which the company markets as “EcoBoost”—and hybrid technology

    You're right. These government loans were for hybrid development and more fuel efficient cars, not a bailout. They did private loans to avoid bankrupcy.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,730
    That program was open to all automakers and suppliers and Nissan and Tesla also received loans (that have to be paid back).

    And Ford didn't directly use their private loans to "avoid bankruptcy" - they used the funds to invest in new products and change their business model and that's what kept them out of bankruptcy. Sorry if I'm being picky but the point is that Ford continued to invest and develop products the last 3 years and now that's paying off in a big way.
  • You're right. These government loans were for hybrid development and more fuel efficient cars, not a bailout.

    Considering how the Fusion Hybrid is getting nothing but praise from car enthusiasts, environmentalists, and other experts, it looks as if Ford invested wisely. Don't ya think? :)
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    IIRC Ford has also paid back those loans. What has GM and Chrysler paid back?
  • Karen_CMKaren_CM Posts: 5,027
    Just a reminder...this discussion is for vehicle comparison. If you wish to discuss the manufacturers, we have several appropriate topics for that in Automotive News.

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.ee9202c

    Community Manager If you have any questions or concerns about the Forums, send me an email, karen@edmunds.com, or click on my screen name to send a personal message.

  • Yes, lets get back to the comparison. But should we remove Camry from the comparison for now (I doubt anyone would choose it at this stage), and add the Mazda 6, Hyundai Sonata, Nissan Altima and Chevy Malibu to the comparison?.

    I love the look of the future 2011 Sonata.
  • bvdj84bvdj84 Posts: 1,721
    Though Camry has its issues. I am more than confident that they will find a solution, and move on. Their company might suffer a bit of a set back. Nothing like GM as a whole though. It is will still continue to be a car that competes with others in its class. So it should remain within the segment. They will move on.

    I would still be confident in choosing a Camry when they have fixed the issue and the cars have been adjusted for the solution. Which I am sure is required before releasing the car. I am not in the market for a Camry. But, They are steps above GM right now, which is what I currently own. So anything would be better than that.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,730
    How can they adjust for a software problem that they haven't yet identified?

    The problem is not the problems themselves, but how Toyota has reacted. Or not reacted as the case may be. They had to be FORCED into a recall and stop sale even though they've known about the problems since 2007.

    That's what you should be concerned about.

    Toyota just admitted there is a flaw in the Prius braking software and that it was fixed on the production vehicles last month. But they have not notified nor were they planning to notify current customers to provide a retroactive fix until they were pushed on it by Steve Wozniak among others.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    What Toyota would have done is when you brought the Prius in for service, they would quietly update the PCM on the car without notifying the customer. Ford does the same thing, a friend of mine worked for a FLM dealer as the service manager so he would provide me with updates as they came out to address TSB's and such for my F350.

    Now that it is out in the open, they are forced to notify all owners of this problem so that it gets done.
  • "What Toyota would have done is when you brought the Prius in for service, they would quietly update the PCM on the car without notifying the customer"

    Honda and Toyota have been doing this for years. I remember my brother taking his Accord in for an oil change and they asked to keep the car for a couple days and when he asked what was going on they said that there was a potential issue inside the engine and had to take the head off for repairs no public notice just quiet repairs. The other neat thing they do is non advertised incentives. Just look on this website for some of the deals people are getting on Accords and Camry's, thousands under invoice but when you look at their web site you see no incentive or very little. The people who figure this out buy new Honda's or Toyota's every couple years then sell their used car (high price because of no advertised incentive) and everyone is happy. Honda / Toyota is selling cars while keeping a high resale value and the customer is happy because he can afford a new car ever 2 years. The only people who are getting burned are the used Honda / Toyota buyer who is paying too much for the car that isn't as reliable as they think. The other companies dump there cars on the rental business to move volume and kill the resale value so you can't afford to but every 2 years which leads to more rental sales.
  • Karen_CMKaren_CM Posts: 5,027
    ...you're killing me here. If you're done comparing the models, I'll shut it down.

    Community Manager If you have any questions or concerns about the Forums, send me an email, karen@edmunds.com, or click on my screen name to send a personal message.

  • "you're killing me here"

    Karen:
    Are you having a bad day? If you look at my post I am comparing Camry and Accord and the reason for their higher resale value and reliability ratings. That would be nice to understand if you were getting ready to purchase. If you feel the need to shut it down then please do because at the end of the day you are the one who matters right?
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    :shades: Well it does seem like the Camry can no longer compete with the Fusion and Accord. Was looking at Consumer Guide and even they note that the 2010 Camry has poor Build Quality. Consumer Reports withdrew the Camry as a Recommended car.

    Their Best Buys include the Chevrolet Malibu, Ford Fusion, Honda Accord, Mazda 6, Mercury Milan, and Toyota Prius. (though given the lastest recall on the Prius, they will likely drop that from the list).

    Our Recommended picks are the Kia Rondo, Subaru Legacy, Subaru Outback, and Toyota Camry. (though the Camry may soon be dropped given its current unsafe record).
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    I think the Prius will remain, other than a software problem which will be easily fixed, I don't see any reason for them to drop it. Had it become an issue same as the Camry is, then I can see them doing it.

    I noticed the Fusion rating went up to 9.3. Not bad. What I am curious about, the Camry Hybrid is built in the same plant, doesn't it use the same pedal assembly? :confuse:

    Toyota will rebound from this, Ford did when they had the Explorer tire issue, which was more Firestones problem than Fords. The Explorer is still selling well today, and a new platform is coming out soon, so Toyota shouldn't have any problems rebounding after this. What Toyota NEEDS to do though is improve the quality. This is reason #1 that I no longer own a Toyota, the quality in the Camry was sub par. When you can feel the springs in the seat just by pressing you palm down on it, something is wrong. When seats show signs of wear after 16 months, something is wrong. I have cars with over 120K on them that had less wear marks. When you can hear wind noise coming from the drivers door, something is wrong. When the factory installed sunroof doesn't close, or pops when you open it, something is wrong. So far with the Fusion, the only thing I found wrong with the car was a blemish on the drivers door panel which the dealer replaced promptly, and in less than 15 minutes. I have not found any quality issues with it since. The Fusion handles better than the Camry, is quieter than the Camry, and is better looking than the Camry, that nose on the Camry reminds me of Jimmy Durante.
  • samnoesamnoe Posts: 731
    In general, the Fusion is well compromised between ride and handling, and is quiet too, combining the best of both worlds of Toyota Camry and Honda Accord. However, there is still room for Ford to catch up.

    Here are some of my thoughts:

    1) Re-design the interior IP. While the quality may be high, the design is unconvincing. The many small, similar looking buttons, complicated controls both for audio and climate, needs improvement. Accord is not much better, but still is. Camry is more simple and easy to control while driving. Also, redesign the funky steering wheel, included all controls to be in different areas, not all of them together which makes it hard to decipher. Also steering wheel size should be no bigger than the Honda CIVIC. It is a delight to drive - it has a sporty, nimble feel, due to its small size.

    2) Interior door grab handles, similar to the Camry - or to the Lincoln MKS for that matter, vertically angled and open thru. So it is easy to close the doors, plus that the hands have a comfortable place to rest.

    3) Glove box(es) illumination. Much more important than multi-color lighting all over the vehicle.

    4) The CamCords feature illuminated ignition key ring. Why not offer that too..

    5) Windshield wiper de-icer - found on many minivans. IMO it's a terrific safety & convinient feature and it's beyond me why more models doesn't offer it.

    6) Wipers should cover more of windshield, both top and sides. Honda usually does a good job with that (with the exception of some models). And maybe add a hidden rear wiper?? Would that be too much to ask for??...

    7) Re-design the signal/wiper stalk. Honda's is superior, both in looks and feel. smaller, with a firm-rubbery feel when activating. Feels much higher quality than most Fords (and GM's). Toyota's are also better, but IMO Honda's stalk is even better with excellent tactile feel. Also reposition the stalk to be straight, not facing upward. All those little details add a lot to the overall feel and quality of a vehicle.

    I will add more when it comes to mind....

    Otherwise, I feel that Ford did a great job, and is a good choice.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,730
    What is this fascination with glovebox lighting? Turn on the passenger map light if you need to see.

    If you want to see the future of Fusion interior design - check out the 2011 Edge interior. It blows away anything from the competition - including the Europeans.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    1 and 4, no argument there, but then again most people looking into the Fusion will know about the buttons if they read enough reviews, I knew the button placement was goofy going into it. Now had they followed the same center layout that they have in the Flex, it would have been so much nicer. The ignition switch would be nicer if it was lit. I dont mid the steering wheel size, drive an 18 wheeler and this one seems pretty darn small. :shades:

    2, None of us have an issue with the doors, they seem to work just fine the way they are.

    3, not much can be stored in the glove box once you put the owners manual in, so don't see a need for a light there, but I do see your point.

    5, Ford makes wiper shakers that attach to the wipers that vibrate the ice off. I had heated wipers on a Veracruz, damned things always iced up.

    6, haven't noticed a problem with coverage, with wiper skipping I have, but the wipers appear to clear quite a bit of glass.

    7, placement in the Fusion is perfect if you drive 10 & 2, I don't need to hunt for it, but when at the 9 position, I am always searching for it. 1995 Grand Marquis, 1999 F350 and 2007 Towncar are all at the 9 position and a pain when I drive them. Not sure about the rest of that, haven't been in a Honda to know the differences.
  • samnoesamnoe Posts: 731
    edited March 2010
    "...What is this fascination with glovebox lighting? Turn on the passenger map light if you need to see..."

    Hey -- What is this fascination with interior car lighting at all? Just bring a flash light along if you need to see... and you're all set!....

    I checked out the 2011 Edge Interior. However, I need still to try it out in person, and also read other reviewers opinions. It is high-tech for sure, but I am afraid it will complicate things even more..
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,730
    I agree, but the map light comes with the vehicle and doesn't require separate batteries.

    Then again I also don't mind the prop rod for the hood - simple, cheap and never needs to be replaced.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    I also don't mind the prop rod for the hood - simple, cheap and never needs to be replaced.

    And you don't need to worry about the struts failing and having that darn hood fall on your head! The prop struts on my F350 are getting weak, in the cold the hood fell on my head! Ouch! :sick:
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