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Older Acura TLs

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Comments

  • z71billz71bill Posts: 2,000
    My business resume is off topic - it would be a long boring post for me to write - even worse for anyone to read!

    I think its pretty obvious that it would cost hundreds of millions of dollars for Acura (or anyone) to design - develop - build - and market a new luxury sport sedan. Its also painfully obvious no matter what I say - or prove - you will not be willing to admit that you are wrong - so lets just leave it at than.
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    "...SH-AWD, while the cats meow for some small segment of the automotive public, is quite a bit more expensive than the simpler, significantly lighter, less expensive RWD I am advocating for the TL."

    Maybe...probably. But that wasn't really my point. I still maintain that it would be financially difficult for Acura to just up and do a RWD for the TL alone, and price it a couple of hundred $$ over an existing FWD TL. Honda could do the SH-AWD because the costs are spread over 3 models and counting, already. That's why I think you'd likely see a SH-AWD TL before a RWD TL.
  • Gentlemen (I assume),

    This isn't my debate, but I'll add my two cents for kicks. I happen to agree with those that believe RWD would be a substantial improvement in the driving characteristics for the TL and make it an even more attractive alternative to the G35 and 3-series.

    I also believe that, while automotive engineering and development costs are not insignificant, the idea that redesigning the TL as a RWD from FWD car both requires the current model to be completely trashed and is a multi- hundred of millions or billion dollar undertaking is, well...incorrect, on both fronts.

    Based upon my business and aerospace background, I was asked to sit on a advisory review board to one of Honda's latest ventures:

    VLJ.

    I'm not about to reveal any proprietary financial information, but from what I know about actual development and engineering costs several orders of magnitude more complex than what is being discussed here, I assure you that Acura could relatively easily switch the TL to a RWD platform for a fraction of what it would cost the Big Stupid Three's engineers to design a robot to take them to the bathroom.

    The "could" does not appear to be the issue. It's the "should" that has Honda/Acura handicapped. I can again honestly tell you that they are as conservative a bunch as they come and don't see much potential for taking risks with a reasonably successful formula. Fortunately, their HondaJets team has a lot more intestinal fortitude for pushing the innovation envelope and I am confident they will become a leader in the VLJ industry.

    And yes, I have an order in on my first Honda ever, with a top speed of nearly three times that of my 911 Turbo. :)
  • Excellent points made here. If Acura is wise, they'll take all your input (great value - free), and come out with a winner.
    Apart from RWD, here are other big misses:
    1. Turning Circle - too wide. Not fun cornering.
    2. The front passenger seat is low - can not raise/adjust it. She hates it when the sun hits her 4-7 p.m, she's 5.6.
    3. The shape/exterior looks, design - nothing worth a turn,(compare to BMW, G35, Mercedes, Caddie CTS.
    The rest is excellent to very good. Few% hate interior vibration noises - some complaints there. :confuse:
  • 1. Such a big engine and so many components take up space that the wheels would use for the turning circle.

    2. Im not sure but isn't it 8 way adjustable? Cant you just raise the front, then the rear of the seat?

    3. OMG, did you just dis what i think is THE MOST BEAUTIFUL SEDAN EVER MADE!! The exterior is such a classic design!! Its the only thing that is "different" yet good looking today. IMO, chevy looked at one when designing the new malibu.

    image
    image

    I really don't care for the type-s (The bmw x3 turned me away from all sport suspensions!). About the looks, I love they way the headlights "squint" at you. Daring you to get in its path so it can switch lanes and blow by you. A guy did that today. He had to be doing at least 110!!

    -Cj
  • z71billz71bill Posts: 2,000
    We are not talking about only development and engineering cost - but the total cost to transform the car to RWD. The way Hobbit1 put it was - the cost will only go up by a couple hundred $ compared to the current TL. One part on the RWD that is not on a FWD car is the drive shaft (I know I must be a real brain to figure that out)

    But just the few parts it takes to build this one assembly will eat up most of the $200.

    Can Acura build a RWD TL that is better that the current FWD TL (YES THEY COULD) but can the car also competes with the BMW / Lexus and still keep the cost within $200 of the current TL. I don't see how this is possible.
  • Even if it went up past the $200, It'd still be their best seller!!
    Getting better all the time...
    -Cj
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    "I assure you that Acura could relatively easily switch the TL to a RWD platform..."

    Yes, that is true...but...the key word is "relatively", in the sense that it is relatively easy compared to...designing an airplane! And no doubt the R & D costs would be much less than that of an airplane project. But the difficulty is producing a RWD platform only for 1 model(the TL), and pricing it competitively. I'm fairly certain the Hondajet project does not have the same pricing confines as the TL.
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    "The way Hobbit1 put it was - the cost will only go up by a couple hundred $ compared to the current TL."

    Dude- why do you persist on keeping up the name calling? It's starting to get irritating.

    Even if Acura raised its MSRP 1k- I think the consumers would still find it to be competitive in the market.
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    The TL and RL could share a (RWD) platform couldn't they?
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    1. Part of the reason why it's turning radius is so bad is because of its FWD platform.

    2. I agree. Acura should allow the passenger seat to be raised or lowered.

    3. Purely subjective. IMHO- The TL looks better than the BMW, G35, C class and CTS.

    I'll take my Acura TL over a BMW or Mercedes that potentially could cost me tons of $$ out of warranty, a G35 that rattles as well and with shoddy brakes and CTS whose resale values are in the toilet. :surprise:
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    3. Purely subjective. IMHO- The TL looks better than the BMW, G35, C class and CTS.

    I agree 100% :)
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 2,606
    I agree with your three responses, too.

    And re: #3, the purely subjective topic of style: I believe this gen TL to be the first Acura (besides the NSX) with any sense of style since the original Legend Coupe. I find this TL to be a handsome and aggressive wedge design with some nice details from almost any angle. And more stylish than the mentioned competitors. While I have no qualms with the styling of the 3 (similar to the prior gen, just a bit more Bangled with a rear from an old Infiniti G20) G (handsome enough, but a bit sedate and looks too "tall and thin" to me. Prior gen, '07 is a nice evolutionary improvement), C (MB style of the day, handsome but looks a bit "compacted"). And the CTS: Ugh. I believe that they intentionally made the interior so unattractive and cheap looking to draw attention away from the overwrought, overdone, fussy exterior (with the front end of a truck!). Over the years, Caddy softened some of the mess (mostly front and rear end), but hey, it was a bold design and sold well. The '08, seen only in pix, looks to be quite the turnaround, I look forward to seeing one live and in person. Especially the interior.

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    I agree laurasdada, I never thought I would buy an Acura because of the exterior style, I thought, was too conservative. When the 04 TL came outI was stunned how great it looked. :surprise:
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    Definitely. As I said, that's probably the only way we'd see a RWD TL -- if costs are spread over several models.
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    Yup, I agree that the TL may be Honda/Acura's best styling job, ever. The NSX and S2000 are also good, but they are more or less niche vehicles. The only improvement I would make on the TL is 18" wheels. The 17" look a tad small in the wheelwell.
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    When they went with the new stlye for the tl, I bet someone's neck was on the line. ;)
  • z71billz71bill Posts: 2,000
    When someone has very limited knowledge about something (not stupid - but ignorant or inexperienced) they will normally UNDER estimate what it takes to complete a task. Same thing can happen when someone has good general knowledge - but just does not think it all the way through - its the picky little details that always seem to bite you.

    Years ago I helped a friend change the engine and tranny in Mustang from a 6 banger with an auto tranny over to a V8 with a 4 speed manual - even though the parts were available - after all the Mustang could have been ordered from the factory with a V8 / 4 speed - it ended up being WAY more work and $ than he expected. It was sort of a domino effect - where one minor little thing required something else to be changed and then that required 2 more changes. This guy restored cars as a hobby (but was a lawyer not a hobbit!) and he was good at it - had a wall full of trophies from winning car shows. He was not just some knuckle head grease monkey.

    I expect that converting a FWD car over to RWD would have some of the same issues - the engineers at Honda know this better than any of us - and would not get trapped in the - Oh CRAP the brake system - or HVAC - whatever - won't fit so it needs to be modified! My point is there would be many things we are not considering - and many things that may look like minor little issues - easy to solve - (to us) that would combine to make this project much more difficult than most here think. BTW More difficult means more $.

    How far off is my HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars guestimate?

    Even using a nominal $500 per car for 100,000 cars per year for 5 years = $250,000,000.

    Pick a more realistic value of $1,500 - $2,000 and - well you do the math.
  • AMEN! The only other car I would consider is the 335i. I love that car. But with sport Pkg. Nav, etc its $12,000 more than what I paid for my new TL Type -S. I also would have to spend more $$$ on an extended warranty if I bought the turbo-charged less reliable BMW. Why doesn't Lexus offer the IS 350 in AWD? Stupid! I guess I don't really care. I love my 07 TL-S :shades:
  • In 08 or 09 the TL will be AWD. And I guess they will offer RWD also. I couldn't wait. I chose the 07 TL-S over the 335i because the 335i when loaded was $12,000 more. And less reliable. :cry:
  • I bought a 07 TL-S Silver, Auto Dec 14,06. I love it and 0 problems. :shades:
  • i wonder what will the next gen TL due out in fall of 08 look like?? with acura doing such a good job with the current one in terms of style and interior, the next gen. styling cues will be interesting to see and will probably send all the luxury-segment automakers back to their drawing board, at least i hope it will.

    with honda's sports4 concept rumored to be the next TSX with its VERY impressive aggressive looks, i hope acura makes the TL look even more aggressive and scare everyone off their feet like the Advanced Sedan Concept but without the weird, way too angular, sharp looks but more of a smooth-flowing (little less angular) but very aggressive look.

    i would also love to see the SH-AWD which is 110% likely make into the TL like the redesigned 08 TSX and also offered in RWD to go against the BMW and a big V6 in it with around 306-320 hp. the interior could also be more elegant and futuristic because the current one seems to be aging and kinda has the some design cues of the current TSX.
  • Great comments. All VERY true. Smart man! :shades:
  • Test drove a 2007 TLS automatic today and am curious about a few things.

    Going about 35-40 in regular drive and then pushing hard on the accelerator there was about a 1/2 second hesitation as the engine rev-ed up before the transmission started pushing the car to accelerate. Is that normal and do people mind that?

    And then I'm a manual shift lover but the fam wants automatic and surely there's more resale in that. So what do people think of the "manual" shifting of the automatic transmission? It didn't seem much like a real shift (gimmick land??) but when gotten used to, does it make the car more or less responsive and more or less economical?

    Do people consider it a fairly quiet car?
  • And if we're lucky, one of them will go to honda! Something bigger than the accord to compete with the 300/charger, azera, maxima, ect. Priced at $27k, it would be a winner!! Hopefully it won't hurt acura to much...

    -Cj
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    My 05 has the same hesitation, but once it gets going, it really scouts. :shades:
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    "it really scouts"

    For which team, nick? 49ers, Giants? :P ;)
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    woops, scoots LOL :P ;)
  • z71billz71bill Posts: 2,000
    My TL does not hesitate -

    The manual shift mode of the auto is fun to play with - when I am in the mood - but don't think it really increases performance - if it does its not by much. It is nice to be able to reach over and drop down a gear (or two) to pass slower traffic - but the tranny will do pretty much the same downshift if you just leave it in auto pilot and step down hard on the gas.

    The one thing about manual mode I did not know until after I bought the car - that is a little strange -

    When you start off from a dead stop - even when in manual mode - the tranny still automatically shifts from 1-2. There is no way to make the car stay in 1st gear - the shift from 1-2 IMO happens too fast - you should be able to "hold" it in 1st gear. I could understand if Acura would have programmed the car to still auto shift - even if you are in manual mode - before the engine hits red line - just in case the driver forgets to shift - or puts in in manual mode my mistake (something I have done a few times)
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    I should play with manual shift mode to see if I can lose the hesitation.
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