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Older Acura TLs

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Comments

  • z71billz71bill Posts: 2,000
    My business resume is off topic - it would be a long boring post for me to write - even worse for anyone to read!

    I think its pretty obvious that it would cost hundreds of millions of dollars for Acura (or anyone) to design - develop - build - and market a new luxury sport sedan. Its also painfully obvious no matter what I say - or prove - you will not be willing to admit that you are wrong - so lets just leave it at than.
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    "...SH-AWD, while the cats meow for some small segment of the automotive public, is quite a bit more expensive than the simpler, significantly lighter, less expensive RWD I am advocating for the TL."

    Maybe...probably. But that wasn't really my point. I still maintain that it would be financially difficult for Acura to just up and do a RWD for the TL alone, and price it a couple of hundred $$ over an existing FWD TL. Honda could do the SH-AWD because the costs are spread over 3 models and counting, already. That's why I think you'd likely see a SH-AWD TL before a RWD TL.
  • Gentlemen (I assume),

    This isn't my debate, but I'll add my two cents for kicks. I happen to agree with those that believe RWD would be a substantial improvement in the driving characteristics for the TL and make it an even more attractive alternative to the G35 and 3-series.

    I also believe that, while automotive engineering and development costs are not insignificant, the idea that redesigning the TL as a RWD from FWD car both requires the current model to be completely trashed and is a multi- hundred of millions or billion dollar undertaking is, well...incorrect, on both fronts.

    Based upon my business and aerospace background, I was asked to sit on a advisory review board to one of Honda's latest ventures:

    VLJ.

    I'm not about to reveal any proprietary financial information, but from what I know about actual development and engineering costs several orders of magnitude more complex than what is being discussed here, I assure you that Acura could relatively easily switch the TL to a RWD platform for a fraction of what it would cost the Big Stupid Three's engineers to design a robot to take them to the bathroom.

    The "could" does not appear to be the issue. It's the "should" that has Honda/Acura handicapped. I can again honestly tell you that they are as conservative a bunch as they come and don't see much potential for taking risks with a reasonably successful formula. Fortunately, their HondaJets team has a lot more intestinal fortitude for pushing the innovation envelope and I am confident they will become a leader in the VLJ industry.

    And yes, I have an order in on my first Honda ever, with a top speed of nearly three times that of my 911 Turbo. :)
  • Excellent points made here. If Acura is wise, they'll take all your input (great value - free), and come out with a winner.
    Apart from RWD, here are other big misses:
    1. Turning Circle - too wide. Not fun cornering.
    2. The front passenger seat is low - can not raise/adjust it. She hates it when the sun hits her 4-7 p.m, she's 5.6.
    3. The shape/exterior looks, design - nothing worth a turn,(compare to BMW, G35, Mercedes, Caddie CTS.
    The rest is excellent to very good. Few% hate interior vibration noises - some complaints there. :confuse:
  • 1. Such a big engine and so many components take up space that the wheels would use for the turning circle.

    2. Im not sure but isn't it 8 way adjustable? Cant you just raise the front, then the rear of the seat?

    3. OMG, did you just dis what i think is THE MOST BEAUTIFUL SEDAN EVER MADE!! The exterior is such a classic design!! Its the only thing that is "different" yet good looking today. IMO, chevy looked at one when designing the new malibu.

    image
    image

    I really don't care for the type-s (The bmw x3 turned me away from all sport suspensions!). About the looks, I love they way the headlights "squint" at you. Daring you to get in its path so it can switch lanes and blow by you. A guy did that today. He had to be doing at least 110!!

    -Cj
  • z71billz71bill Posts: 2,000
    We are not talking about only development and engineering cost - but the total cost to transform the car to RWD. The way Hobbit1 put it was - the cost will only go up by a couple hundred $ compared to the current TL. One part on the RWD that is not on a FWD car is the drive shaft (I know I must be a real brain to figure that out)

    But just the few parts it takes to build this one assembly will eat up most of the $200.

    Can Acura build a RWD TL that is better that the current FWD TL (YES THEY COULD) but can the car also competes with the BMW / Lexus and still keep the cost within $200 of the current TL. I don't see how this is possible.
  • Even if it went up past the $200, It'd still be their best seller!!
    Getting better all the time...
    -Cj
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    "I assure you that Acura could relatively easily switch the TL to a RWD platform..."

    Yes, that is true...but...the key word is "relatively", in the sense that it is relatively easy compared to...designing an airplane! And no doubt the R & D costs would be much less than that of an airplane project. But the difficulty is producing a RWD platform only for 1 model(the TL), and pricing it competitively. I'm fairly certain the Hondajet project does not have the same pricing confines as the TL.
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    "The way Hobbit1 put it was - the cost will only go up by a couple hundred $ compared to the current TL."

    Dude- why do you persist on keeping up the name calling? It's starting to get irritating.

    Even if Acura raised its MSRP 1k- I think the consumers would still find it to be competitive in the market.
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    The TL and RL could share a (RWD) platform couldn't they?
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    1. Part of the reason why it's turning radius is so bad is because of its FWD platform.

    2. I agree. Acura should allow the passenger seat to be raised or lowered.

    3. Purely subjective. IMHO- The TL looks better than the BMW, G35, C class and CTS.

    I'll take my Acura TL over a BMW or Mercedes that potentially could cost me tons of $$ out of warranty, a G35 that rattles as well and with shoddy brakes and CTS whose resale values are in the toilet. :surprise:
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    3. Purely subjective. IMHO- The TL looks better than the BMW, G35, C class and CTS.

    I agree 100% :)
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 2,498
    I agree with your three responses, too.

    And re: #3, the purely subjective topic of style: I believe this gen TL to be the first Acura (besides the NSX) with any sense of style since the original Legend Coupe. I find this TL to be a handsome and aggressive wedge design with some nice details from almost any angle. And more stylish than the mentioned competitors. While I have no qualms with the styling of the 3 (similar to the prior gen, just a bit more Bangled with a rear from an old Infiniti G20) G (handsome enough, but a bit sedate and looks too "tall and thin" to me. Prior gen, '07 is a nice evolutionary improvement), C (MB style of the day, handsome but looks a bit "compacted"). And the CTS: Ugh. I believe that they intentionally made the interior so unattractive and cheap looking to draw attention away from the overwrought, overdone, fussy exterior (with the front end of a truck!). Over the years, Caddy softened some of the mess (mostly front and rear end), but hey, it was a bold design and sold well. The '08, seen only in pix, looks to be quite the turnaround, I look forward to seeing one live and in person. Especially the interior.

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    I agree laurasdada, I never thought I would buy an Acura because of the exterior style, I thought, was too conservative. When the 04 TL came outI was stunned how great it looked. :surprise:
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    Definitely. As I said, that's probably the only way we'd see a RWD TL -- if costs are spread over several models.
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    Yup, I agree that the TL may be Honda/Acura's best styling job, ever. The NSX and S2000 are also good, but they are more or less niche vehicles. The only improvement I would make on the TL is 18" wheels. The 17" look a tad small in the wheelwell.
  • frisconickfrisconick Posts: 1,275
    When they went with the new stlye for the tl, I bet someone's neck was on the line. ;)
  • z71billz71bill Posts: 2,000
    When someone has very limited knowledge about something (not stupid - but ignorant or inexperienced) they will normally UNDER estimate what it takes to complete a task. Same thing can happen when someone has good general knowledge - but just does not think it all the way through - its the picky little details that always seem to bite you.

    Years ago I helped a friend change the engine and tranny in Mustang from a 6 banger with an auto tranny over to a V8 with a 4 speed manual - even though the parts were available - after all the Mustang could have been ordered from the factory with a V8 / 4 speed - it ended up being WAY more work and $ than he expected. It was sort of a domino effect - where one minor little thing required something else to be changed and then that required 2 more changes. This guy restored cars as a hobby (but was a lawyer not a hobbit!) and he was good at it - had a wall full of trophies from winning car shows. He was not just some knuckle head grease monkey.

    I expect that converting a FWD car over to RWD would have some of the same issues - the engineers at Honda know this better than any of us - and would not get trapped in the - Oh CRAP the brake system - or HVAC - whatever - won't fit so it needs to be modified! My point is there would be many things we are not considering - and many things that may look like minor little issues - easy to solve - (to us) that would combine to make this project much more difficult than most here think. BTW More difficult means more $.

    How far off is my HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars guestimate?

    Even using a nominal $500 per car for 100,000 cars per year for 5 years = $250,000,000.

    Pick a more realistic value of $1,500 - $2,000 and - well you do the math.
  • AMEN! The only other car I would consider is the 335i. I love that car. But with sport Pkg. Nav, etc its $12,000 more than what I paid for my new TL Type -S. I also would have to spend more $$$ on an extended warranty if I bought the turbo-charged less reliable BMW. Why doesn't Lexus offer the IS 350 in AWD? Stupid! I guess I don't really care. I love my 07 TL-S :shades:
  • In 08 or 09 the TL will be AWD. And I guess they will offer RWD also. I couldn't wait. I chose the 07 TL-S over the 335i because the 335i when loaded was $12,000 more. And less reliable. :cry:
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