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Honda Accord vs Toyota Camry

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  • bklynguybklynguy Posts: 275
    according to someone (on another forum) who works at TMMK.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I assume the "GS300" will actually be a GS350 then?
  • atlantabennyatlantabenny Posts: 735
    Here's a list of current-model V6 Toyota cars and car-based vehicles and their engine displacement. Based on the info, what's everyone's opinion on the most likely engine for the 2005 Camry ?

    Lexus ES330: 3.3 Liter, upgrade
    RX330: 3.3, new
    Current & 2006 GS: 3.0, since intro
    IS300: 3.0, since intro

    Toyota Camry: 3.0, since intro
    Solara: 3.3, new
    Highlander: 3.3, upgrade
  • gregoryc1gregoryc1 Posts: 766
    Did you change your oil and filter frequently? ---(every 3,000 miles)! ----The "sludge issue" developed in vehicles that experienced extended oil and filter changes, as designed by the manufacturer's engineers. You know, the people who are the experts in the field of automotive maintenance!
  • talon95talon95 Posts: 1,110
    And that's irrelevant because the engine design had defects that caused this problem. This includes restricted oil flow to the cylinder as well as temperature differences between the crankcase and cylinder head that substantially exceed accepted design conventions. These issues caused the oil to be abused far beyond the level that it would have been had the engine been properly designed. And even some engines with more frequent than recommended oil changes experienced the sludge problem.

    This says absolutely nothing about the validity of recommended oil change intervals for engines without such defects. If you wish to second-guess the designers regarding recommended maintenance, or implement a maintenance schedule that assumes that the engine has a defective design, that's your call, but this whole scenario revolving around significant engine design defects is not validation for these actions.

    After all, even the ultra-conservative, "err on the side of caution" people at Consumer Reports call the 3000 mile oil change a myth that's propagated by oil companies and quick lube shops. Their advice is that you follow the recommended schedule from the owners manual.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The Camry SE currently offers the 3.3L, and I believe all Camrys (or at least the XLE) are supposed to get it for '05. The 2006 GS may be a 3.5L. Nobody knows. Toyota also may have a 2.5L four for an IS250 when the replacement comes. Most likely as a lower cost TSX fighter.
  • gregoryc1gregoryc1 Posts: 766
    QUESTION: ---How come some owners who changed their engine oil and filter frequently, DID NOT have the "sludge issue"? ----- Yes, it could be a temperature issue, but over time the engine oil could deteriorate because of the "excess engine heat", and / or a "drain back problem" in the engine head / block. ----- Extended oil and filter changes are a Joke! Toyota initially blamed this condition on owner neglect,(lack of frequent oil and filter changes). They new right from the start, that extended oil and filter changes were not the way to maintain an engine, and they tried to put the blame on the vehicle owner, but they got caught by their recommendations in the "Book of Toyota", ----(Owner's Manual)!
  • talon95talon95 Posts: 1,110
    "QUESTION: ---How come some owners who changed their engine oil and filter frequently, DID NOT have the "sludge issue"?

    Right back at you... QUESTION: Why did some owners who changed their oil more frequently than recommended still fall victim to the sludge issue caused by defective engine design? If your position about the absolute benefits of excessively frequent oil changes was valid, NONE of these frequent changers would have experienced the problem. Yet they did. Case closed.

    "Extended oil and filter changes are a Joke! Toyota initially blamed this condition on owner neglect,(lack of frequent oil and filter changes). They new right from the start, that extended oil and filter changes were not the way to maintain an engine, and they tried to put the blame on the vehicle owner, but they got caught by their recommendations in the "Book of Toyota".

    That's merely your cynical and baseless interpretation of events that tries (and fails) to spin an exceptional, out of the ordinary situation into proof about normal conditions. And it's total nonsense. Toyota's definition of "lack of frequent oil and filter changes" was that they weren't done as frequently as described in the manual, not that people were negligent because they followed the manual's recommendation. Spin it all you want, but those are the real facts.

    And regardless of their initial response, they have since admitted a design defect, and are covering any vehicle that followed recommended oil change intervals. They absolutely do not require that anyone exceed the recommendated oil change intervals in order to get warranty coverage for this defect. So your point is invalid.

    QUESTION... Why didn't every owner with a V6 experience a sludge problem? Clearly not all of them changed their oil as frequently as you promote. Anyone who didn't, INCLUDING THOSE WHO USED OBSESSIVELY EXCESSIVE OIL CHANGE INTERVALS, were lucky, pure and simple.

    Why you insist on jumping on this bandwagon at every opportunity is a mystery. But this forum is NOT about oil changes, so please move on.
  • gregoryc1gregoryc1 Posts: 766
    "Comsumer Reports call the 3,000 mile oil change a myth that's propagated by oil companies and quick lube shops". -----------Questions: -----Do YOU believe everything that is in print? ----Will "Consumer Reports" pick - up the cost of an "oil related repair" on your vehicle, if you follow their recommendations? ----I don't think so! -----Do you base all you maintenance decisions on the advice of other people and / or agencies, or do you do some research, and make your own decisions? ---- The Quick Lube Shops and the oil companies are correct with 3,000 oil and filter changes. Maybe Toyota should have specified a synthetic oil for their engines. Even with synthetic oil, under high heat conditions, it should be changed every 3,000 miles. -----Spend some money on maintenance! ---- Don't try to bring the maintenance war in under budget!
  • talon95talon95 Posts: 1,110
    "Questions: -----Do YOU believe everything that is in print? ----Will "Consumer Reports" pick - up the cost of an "oil related repair" on your vehicle, if you follow their recommendations? ----I don't think so!

    No, I don't believe everything I see in print. But given that I don't share with you the extreme cynicism that you express in many of your posts, I will believe a credible source, and Consumer Reports is one such source.

    If they were the only ones to make those recommendations, you might have a point. But CR, auto makers and many automotive technical experts say the same thing. Yes, I HAVE done my research and I make my own decisions. And I find those resources to be far more credible than you. And I have every right to do so, and I don't appreciate your insinuation that such decisions make me a fool. Nothing personal, just the way I feel.
  • gregoryc1gregoryc1 Posts: 766
    Why can't you just simply exchange opinions. You take my comments very personally! If you do not like my opinion, that is "ok", but don't make it personal!
  • talon95talon95 Posts: 1,110
    OK, as soon as you resort to the tiresome "why do you have to get personal?" card, we're definitely done.
  • motownusamotownusa Posts: 836
    Chill out!! This is 2004. I believe the only cars that were "affected" where the 1997-2001 MYs. So the sludge issue is not an issue for the Gen V Camrys. Personally, I think the sludge issue has kind of been blown out of proportion. Remember, Toyota sells well over 400,000 Camrys a year. If I remember correctly, the number of documented cases is about 4000 for those years. Since Toyota sold around 2 million of these cars between 1996 and 2002, the chances of any particular car developing sludge is extremely small. It is interesting to note that despite the "problem" the Gen IV Camry still got outstanding reliability rating from Consumer Report and JD Powers. I don't think it has ever been fully determined what caused the engine sludge in a very small percentage of the cars. But I do admire Toyota for accepting some of the responsibility.
  • scoti1scoti1 Posts: 676
    I think the sludge issue is still important to the car buying public, particularly those looking at used Camry's and the other models that succumb to sludge. I would like to comment on a few of the points you made:

    1. We don't know if it is an issue with the 2004 models or not. Toyota never did admit to what caused the problem. They did some modifications to the engines in late 2002, but who knows if that totally fixed the problem? Toyota even said that the modifications would not prevent sludge, just buy some time. And it is time that will tell if the problem has been remedied.

    2. The sludge policy is for 1997 - 2002 models (not through 2001 as you state), but I have seen reports of problems in models pre-1997 and post-2002. Go to the Edmunds Sienna Problems and Solutions message board and there is a recent 2003 Sienna owner who followed the manual on oil changes and had sludge. Their engine was fixed under warranty, which is fortunate because the policy does not cover 2003's.

    3. There was never a sludge failure rate published. When Toyota first announced the policy in spring 2002, they told the media that they had received around 3,000 - 4,000 "complaints" of sludge -- this is most definitely not a failure rate and should not be interpreted as such. In addition, the number of complaints has never been revised by Toyota since the first announcents. I continue to read about new sludge problems on the internet, so I can say most definitely that the number has grown since 2002. But no one (except Toyota) can even hazard a guess as to how prevalent the problem is. The http://autos.msn site lists the Toyota engines covered by the sludge policy as having significant problems. This rating comes from a group of independent mechanics (i.e., not affiliated with a dealership), so they would only be seeing the repairs not covered by Toyota.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Posts: 4,202
    Was not extended oil drains per se. But when you combined it with low use. Like someone who went by the 7500 recommended interval AND only drove 7500 miles a year. Most people who had problems seemed to be those who drove infrequently or short trips. Those people who DROVE I mean 7500 miles in 2-3 months didn't seem to have that problem. But even with changes at 3000 mile intervals, some people had sludge since it took them 6 months to get that far. Do a little research. I was around for the first posts about the sludge in the Camry room a LOOONG time ago.

    I agree that it is still important in the used car market. There are a lot of these cars still on the road.
  • andy71andy71 Posts: 96
    anonymousposts : you are absolutely right. If a person changes oil every 7500 miles and does it once a year, he is asking for trouble no matter what car he drives. I change my oil at least once every four months (sometimes even sooner than that) or three times a year regardless of how many miles I drive. I own a 2004 Camry SE V6 which has about 4000 miles and a 95 LE V6 which has 110,000 miles and still drives like a new car. I haven't paid a single penny other than routine maintenance. It would interesting to know how many of the competitors cars also have sludge issues.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Posts: 4,202
    Didn't seem to have the same problem. At the end of the sludge topics life, there was a conclusion that there wasn't really a problem with the engines really. The problem was with the owners manual that needed to STRESS keeping the oil changes to one interval or another. There was not as much tolerance built into the schedule as there was with nearly every other car on the market. Including other Toyotas. There didn't seem to be an issue with other engine in the Toyota lineup so it was limited to the V6 and 2.3I4.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Hey FOLKS!!!

    This is not a sludge discussion - there have been plenty of those in dedicated Toyota discussions; we do not need to rehash all of that here.

    It's also not a place for two people who will never convince the other that he is wrong to get into it yet again. You two need to learn to ignore each other.

    Back to comparing the Accord to the Camry, please. If you must continue on with the sludge issues and whether or not they still matter, do it in a more appropriate venue.

    Thank you.
  • atlantabennyatlantabenny Posts: 735
    You're right on that Camry variant having the 3.3. Two car publications did mention that the 2006 GS will still have the 3.0 V6 albeit a redesigned one.
  • motownusamotownusa Posts: 836
    The 3.3L V6 probably won't survive beyond MY 05 when the all new 3.5L makes it debut. Although most publication only says it will be available on the Avalon, doesn't mention the Camry.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I know they have, but it just doesnt make sense. You dont use a smaller, lower output engine in your $40K+ performance car vs. an Avalon. I think Lexus pulled the wool over their eyes as well.
  • slov98slov98 Posts: 112
    I doubt camry would get the same engine as avalon(the discussed 275HP), then it would take sales away from it. why buy expensive avalon if you can get the same engine in a camry?
  • petlpetl Posts: 610
    1- You are right. There is no guarantee that there will not be a sludge problem. However, this can apply to any engine from any manufacturer. Others have had a shaky history and have recovered nicely (i.e. Hyundai) I tend to believe what many experts have stated. The problem has been addressed and should no longer be an issue.

    2- The affected 2002 models were in all probability manufactured in 2001. That would account for the year confusion. Do you believe everything you read on the Internet? There is no way to verify its accuracy.

    3- How many complaints are duplicates or a repetition of the same problem. A quick peek at the NHTSA web site will confirm that the same people are complaining about the same problem. Most car mags and the few mechanics I spoke with seem to think that this is a non-issue. Until I see documented, undisputed proof I tend to agree with them.

    4- Anyone how chooses to believe that there is a prevalent sludge problem has the option to purchase any other vehicle they wish to own. However, history dictates that the percentage of owning a reliable car lies with Toyota. The choice is yours.

    Please, you made your point it's now time to put this thing to rest.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    If you havent noticed, the TL has had more horsepower than the more expensive RL for quite awhile. Also, the Avalon and Camry have had the same 3.0Ls for years.
  • scoti1scoti1 Posts: 676
    Pat_Host requested that the sludge discussion move to a more appropriate venue. Is there one on Edmunds?

    petl, you bring up good points and since this isn't the appropriate venue I won't discuss it further with you. But I did want to point out that we are both right (or wrong) on the model years covered. The V-6's are covered through 2002, but the 4 cylinders are only covered through 2001. The link below is from the horses mouth (Toyota).

    http://toyota.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/toyota.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp- .php?p_faqid=463&&p_sid=m94V12eh&p_lva=497&p_sp=c- F9zcmNoPTEmcF9ncmlkc29ydD0mcF9yb3dfY250PTcmcF9zZWFyY2hfdGV4dD1zbH- VkZ2UgZ2VsJnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9NCZwX3Byb2RfbHZsMT1_YW55fiZwX3Byb2R- fbHZsMj1_YW55fiZwX3BhZ2U9MQ%2A%2A&p_li=#engines covered
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    You'll find a number of sludge discussions in the archives, including one in which Toyota responds. You may read through them, and you may also ask the board host to reopen one that you find appropriate.

    Use the keyword search here on the left for "sludge". Also be aware that the subject has been discussed at great lengths in many Toyota individual model discussions. You can go to individual discussions and use the "Search This Discussion" feature on the page bar - that will find specific posts for you.

    At the top of each archived discussion there are instructions on how to request that it be reopened.

    This will be the last post on the sludge issue in this discussion - thanks.
  • I'm thinking of getting an 2004 Accord or Camry. Not sure which car, or whether the 4 cyl or 6 cyl model.

    I'm curious what drivers are getting for actual mpg for their 2004 car.
  • tlaurotlauro Posts: 504
    I don't read CR, but they aren't wrong. Todays engines by far run differently and the old days of 3k oil changes is no longer. Many cars can go 7500 in everday normal driving. I've had plenty of them with higher miles on them going every 7500k or 3 times per year at min. with no issues. The oldest of which I still own with no issues and it celebrates it 20th anniversary this year. 1983 Hurst Olds with 210,000 miles on the motor. The only major engine related part that I've replaced were the lifters...at 60k miles. Poor Olds design in the 307cu in is all.

    I run synthetic which is more stable and provides overall better running conditions.

    "Comsumer Reports call the 3,000 mile oil change a myth that's propagated by oil companies and quick lube shops". -----------Questions: -----Do YOU believe everything that is in print? ----Will "Consumer Reports" pick - up the cost of an "oil related repair" on your vehicle, if you follow their recommendations? ,/b>
  • brian1brian1 Posts: 25
    Why not. Maxima and Altima have the same engine.
  • slov98slov98 Posts: 112
    yeah but if you want more horsepower, you have to buy maxima, I believe it's 265 vs 245 HP on altima, V6
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