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Honda Accord vs Toyota Camry

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  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    Sales, because there are 2-3 times the Toyota dealers in the U.S. vs Honda dealers.. Performance wise the Accord will outhandle, out accelerate, just plain out do a comparable Camry. I test drove one and can't see why they sell so well....
  • milindcmilindc Posts: 123
    Read posts 102 & 103. That guy has given very material difference between th two. Sales figures are VERY CLOSE. Camry is number one as it does a LOT of FLEET-SALES to Hertz/Avis etc. Accord fleet sales are very low. Honda has one statement in their anual report that Accord is the best selling vehicle to individual direct customer.
    They don't advertize that way as it would seem a 'negative' add.

    Sales figures of these two are very close to individual customer.

    I'm 6'1" with very long legs & do fit in properly in my Accord. best way is to test drive one....

    Thanks,
    ~Milind
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    Acutally, Honda doesn't advertise it because it would be false advertising. Honda no longer used the claim that Accord is the best selling vehicle to individual buyers. They use to, but last year Camry out sold Accord to the individual buyers, so Honda swiched the quote to "it remains one of the best" selling car to the individual buyers. You can see it in their most recent annual report.
    Camry sells about 8-12% to fleet. Accord about 4% to fleet. Last year, Camry outsold Accord by enough margin to offset the difference.

    Camry sells so well because it's very quiet and very soft. Accord sells on the virtue of it's semi-sportiness, Camry sells on the virtue of it's semi-luxuryness. They don't "plain out do" each other. Accord 4 cylinder would out accelerat the Camry 4. But then Camry V6 will out accelerate the Accord V6. Accord would out handle the Camry, but then Camry would out quiet the Accord. The reasons why they both sells well is because there are very large groups that prefer one of the two style of driving. It all comes down to the individual preference.
  • milindcmilindc Posts: 123
    that's what I was saying. The margin is too low.
    Only in 1999 Camry sold more to individual buyers.
    (98 Accord was more)

    Also Accord V6 would out accelerate Camry V6.
    Wenyue you should check figures.
    I have Road/Track comparision which gave max 1st Accord 2nd. Accord was 7.7 0-60 Camry was 7.9
    (Even Lexus ES300 is tested for 8.0 flat)

    Accord V6 are sold in MUCH more number than the Camrys. Accord V6 are very high in demand.

    Now a days I have subscription to R/T, Motortrend Car/Driver, Consumer Report !! :)
  • milindcmilindc Posts: 123
    between these two car lies the personal-preferrence but there are some material figures in which current Accord has an edge over camry.
    I don't see ANY advantage of Camry over accord than quite/floaty ride.

    I don't think any car in this price segment is as quite as Camry is....
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    Appearantly we have conflicting data.

    http://www.theautochannel.com/content/vehicles/new/reviews/1999/gap9850.html

    Accord V6, 0-60 = 8.0 seconds.

    http://www.theautochannel.com/content/vehicles/new/reviews/1998/russ9817.html

    Camry V6, 0-60 = 7.8 seconds.

    As for your opinion that you don't see there is ANY advantage over the Accord, well that's your opinion. I respect that, but that's not shared by the buyers. There is a reason why Camry has the most loyal owners among the midsize segment. Every one should understand what the others prefer. I prefer the Camry, you prefer the Accord. Good for us both.
  • milindcmilindc Posts: 123
    Edmunds lists 7.9 for Accord.
    & 8.0 for Camry !! What would you say ??

    Different test-conditions, Different Testers may affect the result but most of the time I have seen better numbers for Accord & not Camry.

    Wenyue: Honestly don't u agree that making a lot of fleet sales is hurting Camry's resale ?

    Rental companys auction out one year old Camrys/Corollas. It's unfaire to consumers.

    Accord n'joys better resale just bcos of that.
    I said that Camry doesn't have any advantage than Accord than quite & floaty ride it's bcos:

    - Accord is better value.
    - Better Iterior layout, Room.
    - Faster/Frequent shiftingng Xmission vs Smooth/less frquent shifting of Camry (Both are equally reialble)
    - Better Suspension (Double Wishbone Fully Independent)
    - Better Highway ride/passing power
    - Better Engine (more HP/Torque) 2.3 with VTEC for 4 Cyl
    - Better Resale

    Camry's advantage is Quite Smooth ride, Smooth Xmission which is achieved by making it slow shifting.

    There are some more advantage to Consumers for choosing Accord over Camry.
    Toyota is VERy big co than Honda with very good resources, they can produce as much Camrys as they want. i.e to sale it to both rental/consumers etc. It's easy for them to keep it no: 1 by giving rebates/interest rates etc.
    They have priced it more so as to give room for negotiations so that the buyer thinks that he is getting very good deal. Honda on the other hand can't produce enough V6 Accords, also TLs & Oddesseys. 3 month wait for Oddessey & very tight demand for 3.2TL (going for MSRP for almost 2 years now).
    US capacity is 340K Accords, they have to import remaining 70K accords from Japan(mine is built in Japan).

    Resale is more of function of demand. Accords are less in number in used car market than any other make (excluding Luxury). that's the reason I have seen many of my short-perios-in-usa friends have got 89/90 Accord with 120K miles for more than 4000...!!! Which seems rediculous.

    This situation i.e less resources with Honda to produce more cars is helping buyers indirectly.

    I know if they start making too many Accords & start saling it to rental, it will affect it's resale too.

    Intellichoice gave 5 year old Accord 63% value of MSRP. Camry 54%. Also Accord costs less over 5 years to maintain than Camry.

    Accords command high resale bcos people want them.
    They are not going to settle for anything else.

    Mercedese-Benz representative once acclaimed that Honda is other make which has as good as brand-loyalty/Equity as ours.

    Again, Camry or Accord ==> It's personal preferrence but say if a person (hypothetical case) like them both the SAME, there is no reason why he should get Camry over Accord (ofcourse it's different story if he needs quiter, calmer, smoother ride)

    What do u think Wenyue ?

    I think I am mot being unreasonable....
    ~Milind
  • Wenyue is right, as usual :)
    We bought the Camry because
    we frequently drive long distances(~600 miles
    a day) and in a Camry we come out as fresh as
    we went in, thanks to the soft ride and library
    like quiet interior. It ,however, lacks any
    sporty character, which is I think by design.
    That is why when we want to have some fun, we take the A4, but for long trips, the Camry is
    always the choice.
  • milindcmilindc Posts: 123
    U r stretching figures by saying 3.3 & 1.3.
    The difference is more than that & used car market is 3 times the new car market.

    I don't buy these figures(3.3 & 449).
    Toyota has started fleet sales from 97 (when Camry became "EPA Midsize" before 97 it wasn't. So the resale hasn't yet completly affected. Toyota is more profitable than hOnda..that's what I was saying, by selling more car they are more profitable which honda can't match...but it's CONSUMER whos getting indirect advantage. Honda can't match the demand when it comes to V6...& still it's outselling Camry V6...!!
    Ford Explorer is much more profitable to Ford than any other vehicle on the Earth, that doesn't help it's cause.

    "Accord Xmission shifts too hard ??????????"
    U r wrong Wenyue, I own accord so my friends & it shifts very smooth. But it shifts frequently or more often than Camry...The difference is very small or non-existent.

    How about VISIBILITY ?? Which I forgot in last mail ?? Accord has a very expansive wind-shield & much better visibility than Camry.

    "Whos Fault is that Honda can't produce more cars not Toyota's" ===> Wenyue are u speaking for Toyota company or Toyota Consumers ?? Speak for Consumers. Honda also can keep it no 1 if they want to do...but that would be unnecessary. Accord/Camry n'joy vast customer loyalty so it would require some special effort to make it no 1 as Toyota is doing with Camry:(Fleet/Rebates/Financing) Also u can't overlook the fact that there are more Toyota dealers than Honda(almost double ??)

    One thing I want to clear Wenyue who said the Accord is noisy ?? Better to say that "Camry is quiter". Camry is comparatively quiter than Accord ? That doesn't mean that Accord is noisy.
    Also accord supension is much better than the Camrys which is wallowy & toooo soft. It's steering is rediculously light & vague. (I drive a lot of new camrys thanks to Hertz)
    Accord steering is much better than Camrys. Do u mean to say vague & light steering & boatlike ride is better than 'lightly' stiff ride which inspires confidence & predictability to driver ?

    What about iterior layout ? Wehnyue if u like Camrys soft rise/ultra smooth xmission doesnot mean that u need to defend every aspect of the Camry. Accord's interior is more modern & well laid out than Camry's. (Camry is very well ergonomically that's not the point)

    Chassis: Honda's global midsize platform which was first used in 98 Accord is better than 97 Camry in terms of rigidity, stiffness.

    Wenyue u do agree that
    1)Resale is better for Accord
    2)There shouldn't be any problem accepting about 4Cyl engine. Better power, Better highway passing.
    3)Visibility Drive an Accord to know about it.
    It has prob'ly the BEST visibility in it's class or may be in any class. (Odyssey has HUGE visibilty)
    4)Value Accord is better value.
    5)Better Suspension setup
    6)Better Steering response/feedback

    Camrys Advantage
    1)Quiter ride
    2)slightly smoother Xmmision
    Did I miss something in this section ??

    Wenyue : KBB which dealers use & which are direct figures from market says:
    $12,645 For Trade In Accord LX with ABS
    $12,450 Without ABS

    $11,620 For Camry LE with ABS
    (Both Good Condition)
    (98 LE Didn't have std Keyless/Power seats it seems: I will confirm from edmunds though)

    Wenyue: I think I did everything right on KBB to get these figures. See the difference, LE which costs more in the beginning is worth much less.

    NADA which is other source has very close figures as KBB. (KBB is actual market values & which dealers use)

    What do u guys think ??
    I agree with Personal Preferrences & there are many consumers who chose Accord/Camry without any consideration to the quiter ride etc just bcos they had one previsouly & wanted new one.

    Not every Accord owner gets Accord for stiff/sporty etc ride..it's equally comfortable as camry is for family of five.

    Now every Camry owner gets Camry because it's quiter/Smoother/boatlike. So the crowd isn't exactly divided into half i.e 50-50....it's in between.

    Again I repeat my question: What other reason Camry has over Accord than quiter/smoother ride ??

    Thanks,
    ~Milind
  • milindcmilindc Posts: 123
    "But you are not the majority. Majority are buying the car for family use. Camry has excllent resale as well (only $449 difference), and you DO need a quiet ride, as well as a soft ride, as well as a smooth transmission. Than Camry is clearly the better choice."

    Replace it with quiter & smoother....
    Accord/Camry are not toys so u choose quiter one.
    Accord is also very quite & smooth as Camry just a 'little' lesser.
  • liufeiliufei Posts: 201
    This has been discussed over and over again. Both car has their strong point and cater at different market. The one you buy is the one that suit your need the best, either that, or a compromise of other factor.
  • milindcmilindc Posts: 123
    But what I am giving are some material facts just not some personal opinions. If Accord was not there, I would have got Camry. It's bcos of the previously mentioned 1) facts & 2) Personal Preferrence I got the Accord.

    I just wanted to demonstarte the #1 hype & how much waitage it carries (to be #1 selling)
    Ford Taurus was #1 selling for 6 years in a row => What about that ?

    When comparing Accord Vs Camry I tried to keep personal preferrence away & come up with some hard-core facts which tell me that 'current' accord is a better buy than Camry. Again personal Preferrence of more quite & Smooth ride may divert buyer to camry.

    Thanks,
    ~Milind
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    We are going around in circles. So this is my last post. People choose Camry for their own reason. Why don't you ask them? They can probably give you a million different reasons.

    As for KBB value. It's incorrect. They are not the MARKET average. Have you looked at the retail value KBB quote you for a used 99 Camry and Accord? It's MORE expensive than buying the car new. That makes alot of sense doesn't it? The value they quote are the initial dealer OFFER. Not the actual final price. (Why in hell would any one by a used car, if they have to pay, according to KBB, more than buying a new car). Edmund post the average MARKET price. The price that transaction is actually dealt at. You won't see Edmund saying your used car is worth more than when it's new. Edmund's number is clearly the more logical and reasonable number. And the difference in resale $449.

    Camry had fleet sale way before 97. Toyota has always been doing control feel sale. So has Honda. So if resale has been high for more than a decade, it's not about to change now. By the way, Camry became a midsize in 1992. Accord didn't become midsize until 1998.

    Accord is noisy. Don't take my word for it, take Edmund's and Car and Driver's word for it. Along with the general consensus. They all agree Accord is noisy.

    Interior layout. What's wrong with Camry's interior lay out. It's one of best ones. Accord is more modern? Gee, all this subjective talk. Might as well turn this into a liberal vs conservative debate.

    chasies. Well, Camry's chasis is quieter, and softer, and seems to be safer as well. Accord is sportier. Again preference.

    Anyway. I think most people could agree Accord transmission is rather harsh. Please check Accord's forum, you will see complaints about the transmission, not the case in Camry forumn. Camry advantage #1.

    "1)Resale is better for Accord."

    Agreed, but $400 some dollars isn't a big deciding factor for most of the buyers". So yes, it's a small advantage for Accord. 1 point for Accord.

    "2)There shouldn't be any problem accepting about
    4Cyl engine. Better power, Better highway passing."

    Agreed. But Camry's 4 cyllnder is does it's job. People are not all about power, or else the Civic (which is slower than the Camry) would never sell. People buy what they like. Anyway, yes, the nod goes to Accord. 1 point for Accord.

    "3)Visibility Drive an Accord to know about it.
    It has prob'ly the BEST visibility in it's class
    or may be in any class. (Odyssey has HUGEvisibilty)"

    Camry doesn't have bad visibility. Visibility is not a problem in the Camry at all. But Accord does have a slightly better visibility, ok, 1/2 points.

    "4)Value Accord is better value."

    This is a repeat of (1). We already calculated the value difference, $449. Trying to score extra points? :) No points.

    "5)Better Suspension setup"

    Incorrect. It depends on the preference in ride. For family use (the majority of the buyers), Accord suspension characteristics is inferior to Camrys. I would actually say Camry has the ride advantage. I would actually put 1 point for Camry, but I will refrain, and say no point.

    "6)Better Steering response/feedback"

    Again, depends on the preference. camry's steering is very relaxed and totally vibration free. This again, is either advantage or disadvatnage depends on your driving preference. No point.

    Total, 2.5 points for Accord.

    Now my turn.

    (a) Camry quietness. It's signficantly quieter. Everyone agree. 1 point for Camry.

    (b) Camry softness. It's signficantly more comfortable ride. 1 point for Camry. But since then you can claim Accord has sportier ride, and get 1 points. So ok, then cancle out. I would say no point.

    (c) Camry transmission. Camry suspension shift smoothly and reliably and quickly. YOu won't even feel it shift. In no way is Accord's automatic better than Camrys. As reliable, yes, as good, no. Honda is never known for making good automatics. That has been the complaint by critics and consumer alike for decades. 1 point for Camry.

    (d) Camry safety. Crash test in Camry's favor. As well as injury and death rate a siginficantly lower for the Camry. 1 point for Camry.

    That's 3 points already. I won't go into the better Toyota warranty, or the full size spare tire, better sound system....

    Enough already. As you can see, both sides have clear advantage in some area over the other. That's why people choose between them.

    Oh, as for fleet sale. Toyota has been doing fleet sale about 8-12% (10%), that's by Toyota's sales chief. Honda does about 4%.

    Now, use car market is 3 times the new car market size. 10% Camry fleet sale = 10%/3 = 3.3% used car market. 4% Accord fleet sale = 4%/3 = 1.3% used car market. This is a rough estimate, but you can see how it in the ball park.

    Anyway. It's ok, that you try to measure how good the car is by YOUR standard. And it's also good that I measure the car by MY standard. But that's doesn't mean a thing out there when millions of people are buying.

    Why do so many people choose Camry over Accord? Only the buyers themselves know. I can see it, because I think the Camry makes a better family car. But I understand those who prefer to trade off some comfort for sportiness will be buying the Accord. That's fine with me too. There are in my mind plenty of reason to choose either one.

    People WILL buy what they like. Since Camry and Accord are arch rivales, people looks into them both. People choose Camry for good reasons, and people choose Accord also for good reasons. I don't doubt them, I have my own preference. If everyone was like me, no one would be buying the Accord, and if everyone was like you, no one would be buying the Camry. Luckly, the world is little more diversified that that. :)
  • liufeiliufei Posts: 201
    You said to keep preferences out of the equation, but that's quite hard because it influence many aspects when comparing the cars.
    For instance:
    - Better Suspension (Double Wishbone Fully
    Independent....
    5)Better Suspension setup...

    --> perhaps if your preferences is a sporty ride,but if you prefer smooth ride, Camry's suspension is better. So how can you said which suspension is better without letting your preferences interferes with it?
    You seemed to enjoy the sporty ride and handling, thus making the Accord's suspension better (in your opinion), while other may think the Accord's suspension more bumpy (compared to Camry's) and think its suspension as inferior than that of the camry.

    Thats just one example to consider.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    milindc. I won't post on this subject any longer. It's been debated to death, and it's not going to change the way people choose their cars.

    Camry and Accord both has its advantages. And buying a car is all about preference. Even the numbers that we can account for are just a part of it.

    You can't put a $ or a # to something such as quietness. To sports drivers, it's worth nothing, infact, some people are turned out by a loud revving engine. Yet, to others, it's worth all the world when their baby sleeps peacefully in the back.

    Let people choose, and respect their choice. Who are you to say their choice is wrong when they feel that they would be better off owning a Camry (or Accord).
  • liufeiliufei Posts: 201
    geeze....If i would've known you gonna post
    extensive info like that, I wouldn't have bother to write mine. :)

    But yes, In my opinion, it would be hard to take out your preferences from the picture, as well as trying to rate abstract factor such as quietness,etc
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    The only advantage a Camry may have over the Accord is its interior noise. I admit the Camry I test drove was a little bit quieter, I felt more isolated in other words. But when asking the Camry for some power to pass, or get on the freeway, forget it, the Camry is a slug. The Accord wins the Acceleration round hands down. I like to drive my cars not sleep in them. As for the latest sales figures, the 2000 Taurus is number 2 and moving up fast on the Camry. May claim number 1 by this time next year. Honda has never much really cared about sales numbers, they want repeat buyers and to gain and hold market share. Toyota is probably 3x or more, the size of Honda as far as total world sales. Toyota and Honda are the only 2 Japanese owned car compainies left. I am starting to believe Honda will make it through all these mergers. I have read they are a quite solid finiancially and have some good products coming out in the next 5 years. A truck and a Honda SUV are right around the corner..
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    I wonder then why Civic LX sells so well. It's even more under powered. When compared to Sentra, Protege, Corolla, Focus, it's even more of a slug. Yet it's the best seller for compact cars.

    It's funny how both Camry 4 cylinder and Civic LX 4 cylinder, both being underpowered by your standard, are the best sellers in their segment. :)

    Taurus is doing very well. It's value is undeniable. You can have a fully loaded Taurus for FAAAAAAAAAAAAAR less than either Camry or Accord. And if you are leasing a car, where reliability is a none issue, it makes an excellent choice.

    Toyota car operation is about 2x that of Honda's. Honda has specialized in engine sector, also making motorcycle and power tools. Toyota is far more diversified, reaching into banking, housing, telecommunciation. Toyota is the more stable and fiancially wealthy company by far (wealthest automaker in the world).

    We shall see if HOnda survive as an independent company in the next few years. Honda's profit is taking a beating due to poor exchange rates ( down 25% total last year and this year). So Honda needs to shore up it's defenses at this time of fiancial weakness. If they can survive the next few years, they have a good chance of staying independent.
  • Honda is overtaking Daimler-Chrysler's position in Canada as one of the top 3 car manufacturers. I think they've alread overtaken them.

    ADG: GTI rules, I don't know why, but I have a thing for the Honda's...I feel more "at home" in them. I enjoyed my drives in a Prelude SH just as much as I would a GTI, My preferences just stick towards the Prelude although the GTI did feel faster. I hate the long gears in the Prelude though it seriously needs a 6th gear.
  • zhuzhu Posts: 6
    1. Accords are always sold cheaper than Camries, which partially explains the so called 'resale';
    2. Although Camries are more expensive, people are still chosing Camries over Accords;
    3. Accords are in high demand, so are Camries, and Camries' market value is still higher;
    4. Did you guys find that 2001 Civics have MacPherson design instead of double-wishbone, which Honda funs raved about? Please tell us why;
    5. Accord just remind us Civic image. Period.
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