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General Motors Fans

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  • fintailfintail Posts: 34,310
    I think he means Spyker, the weirdo supercar maker. I don't know where they'd find that kind of money.

    A Saab is WAY too low key for affluent Russians. They are the most ostentatious consumers imaginable.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Kent, OHPosts: 7,535
    You'll probably find incentives on the Malibu along with a dealer willingness to negotiate making that substantially more than $400. Also, in this area the Chev store will not insist on adding on as many extra fees as the Honda store.

    I was thinking the same thing...not to mention things like 'loyalty cash' as well as a rebate like you're stating
    , plus if you're like me and have a GM card, I usually get a couple grand off with that too...and that's non-negotiable. GM has been giving bonus cash on top of your GM card earnings lately, too.

    Bill
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Posts: 2,770
    ".....You can care about GM and want the UAW to be gone, if that is what will help GM be successful. "

    I don't believe that the 2 are mutually exclusive, though. I DO believe that it is time for the UAW to be more conscientious about their relationship w/ The Big 3. The more they succeed, then the more the workers succeed.

    My worry is where does the concessions end. If, hypothetically the concessions made by the UAW cause the transplant companies to decrease their compensation to their workers just so the transplants can maintain some sort of "advantage" in costs, then would it not correct to assume that the UAW is going to be asked to concede more too? Kind of like a big department store coming into an area and selling goods at a loss just to get people in the door and away from their usual haunts, causing the weaker or smaller stores in the area to go belly up. Then the big box store raises their prices to make money, because they are the only game in town.

    My question is where does it end?

    Right now, all of GM's newest products are selling quite well, and for very little in incentives. So, one would assume that GM is making some good cash on those products, and not doing so well on the older products. If (IF!!!) this trend continues, then ultimately GM should start making a profit.

    As much as the wages and bennies hurt GM, I would assume having all these different platforms and engines for different regions of the world hurt the bottom line too.

    We see this 2011 Regal as being Buick's version of the Opel Insignia. GM may get some criticizm for this as being "badge engineering", and thats OK, for now. But what happens in say, 2016? Does the next gen. Regal and Insignia stay badge engineered, or do the design teams work to make a true "Buick" and a true "Opel", that just happen to share a platform and some engine combos. If the latter is the case, then kudos to GM, as they will save money that will pale in comparison to wages. And if the product is that good, they will make money hand over fist.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,775
    Certainly a lot of GM's problems were not UAW-related.

    ".....You can care about GM and want the UAW to be gone, if that is what will help GM be successful. "

    I don't believe that the 2 are mutually exclusive, though. I DO believe that it is time for the UAW to be more conscientious about their relationship w/ The Big 3. The more they succeed, then the more the workers succeed.


    I think the key is that GM needs to be competitive. Not only in products, but also in costs. There are many excellent vehicles made in the US from profitable auto companies. There should be no reason why GM cannot be one of them. I think we agree about that.

    The issue with the UAW when people say they hope they lose all their jobs is I believe frustration with the hard line stance the union has kept. Although there have been concessions they have come almost at the death of the parent company. Other than government workers, few US workers still have defined-benefit pension plans or retirement health care. If GM is going to keep funding those types of things then they are going to have trouble being successful. I believe the workers at Toy, Hon, Hyu, BMW, Acu, etc. building vehicles in the US are mostly decently paid, decently compensated, and happy to have their jobs. This is not the third world.

    GM's latest vehicles are looking really good and you have to admire them for being bolder with the Volt, among others. But to help GM be successful, many changes had/have to be made: union inflexibility and costs, better vehicles, better reliability, new management, new board of directors, fewer divsions, fewer products. Most of those changes have been made and it is beginning to show. It is just that the union is still a tremendous risk to GM.

    The analogy of Apple and Microsoft is apt. In Microsoft I see a behemoth with good but sort of boring products, slow moving culture, not much innovation -- a lot like GM had been (although Microsft is very profitable). In Apple we see the BMW of electronics companies - elegant products, market-changing innovations, high perceived value. This is more like BMW. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't be able to have a US make that is more like Apple in this example. Hopefully Buick or Cadillac can get there.
  • Spyker has deep russian investment backing and is getting a 400 million euro loan from the the gov't.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,528
    Someone posted this drive of a laCrosse in the LaCrosse forum.
    It's the WOW factor:

    "At night, a sliver of blue cuts across the dash, part of Buick's interior lighting scheme. LEDs have become night-time chrome accents for posh interiors, and the LaCrosse is light years ahead of its major competitors -- the Toyota Avalon and Lexus ES350. Those interiors are crisp, but the LaCrosse is elegant."

    Detroit News
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Posts: 2,770
    ".....Although there have been concessions they have come almost at the death of the parent company. Other than government workers, few US workers still have defined-benefit pension plans or retirement health care."

    2 things; first, I think that the product (or lack of product) from say 1990 'til 2006 (save trucks and SUV's) had more to do with the fact that there were huge amounts of cash on the hood. Had the Bonnevilles, Cutlasses, Devilles and LeSabres of the '90's been as good as the trucks and SUV's, then maybe there would have been no reason for a bailout.

    As far as the benefits, I'm uncomfortable with the "I don't have it so why should you" attitude. Personally, I don't think that a pension should be much more expensive than a 401k, except for the fact that the employee contributes to the 401k as well, and there are some pensions ( the RI state employees pension for one) where the employees pay in too. Medical is probably the back breaker, but that is another topic altogether.

    What may be the weirdest part of the whole issue is how there is basically one national contract for all 3 automakers, as opposed to contracts that are tailored to each individual automaker.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Posts: 2,770
    WOW is right. What a nice article.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,528
    >Bonnevilles, , and LeSabres

    The H-bodies of the 92+ era are some of the most reliable GM made. I have had 3; currently own two of them. My 89 Century (and 87 Century) were delightful cars. Indeed, if GM had not discontinued the H-body, I probably would have replaced my 98 with a newer one; but I didn't want the Lucerne, which is a different car.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,528
    GM will pay back emergency loans by 2010:

    "SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- General Motors Co. expects to pay back emergency loans in full to the U.S. and Canadian governments by June 2010, Chief Executive Ed Whitacre said in a statement Friday. Whitacre added that the outlook is based upon "no downturn in the economy or business." The outlook accompanies GM's announcement it made a $1 billion payment to the U.S. Treasury and a $192 million payment to Export Development Canada."
  • fezofezo Posts: 9,442
    Yesterday I saw a new LaCrosse when its owner was visiting a neighbor. It really is an attractive car.

    The one element in design that rubbed me the wrong way were the too small windows but that's a phase most everyone is going through these days.

    After looking inside I agree with that guy. I want to see it at night.

    You do have to wonder about a guy who uses perfect day and 11 degrees in the same sentence....
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,775
    What may be the weirdest part of the whole issue is how there is basically one national contract for all 3 automakers, as opposed to contracts that are tailored to each individual automaker.

    I guess with the union not agreeing to concessions at Ford, it helps GM be more successful but may hurt Ford. The previous consistency of the contracts has evolved to inconsistency which now favors C and GM (purely from a contract/workforce perspective).
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Posts: 2,770
    See, I agree that they are nice and reliable (my parents '88 Park Ave was the best in that category), but you bring up the Century. Now, there was a car GM made for Buick, Olds, Pontiac and Chevy, starting in 1982. By 1990, the 6000 and Celebrity were done (BTW, the 6000 was VERY highly regarded when it first came out), yet the Century and Cutlass Ciera went on unchanged for 6 more years!!! The Cavalier used the same platform from 1982 at least until the new model in '95, if not the entire run.

    I loved my '99 Ultra. I would've liked to replace it w/ the same sized car, but one of the reasons I went with the LaCrosse was it was brand new, whereas the Lucerne rides on the same platform, which has been in use since the '95 Aurora. Thats now 16 model years.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Posts: 2,770
    I probably would have given Ford a break, and rewarded them for their foresight in avoiding bankruptcy. But I would definitely want something in return from Ford, like more US manufacturing.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 34,310
    400M Euro (ca. $560M) just to take delivery....that's a gamble.

    I did see more Saabs in Germany than I imagined...maybe they envision some kind of niche for the cars. I wonder if the Chinese would go for them too.
  • berriberri Posts: 4,270
    The UAW is shortsighted. Hammering Ford will backfire down the road because Ford has a huge debt balance and other disadvantages that GM got rid of in BK. I think GM will turn it around and in a few years Ford will be the one hurting again because of the un-level playing field the union, and their debt, stuck them with. The CAW, which used to be pretty militant, seemed smarter on all of this and over time will probably reap more production.

    If the UAW really cared about more than personal greed, they'd settle for lower demands, but a larger potential bonus arrangement when the company does well.
  • ClairesClaires Chicago areaPosts: 979
    is over there --> UAW

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,528
    Back on track:
    GM will make its some of its own electric motors. The batteries aren't the only critical part of the hybrid system.

    Read here

    image
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    Interesting that Whitacre of GM and Mullaly of Ford came from outside the car industry. Both of them had excellent records in leadership in their industries - telecom, airplanes.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,775
    Interesting that Whitacre of GM and Mullaly of Ford came from outside the car industry. Both of them had excellent records in leadership in their industries - telecom, airplanes.

    Sometimes it takes "out of the box" thinking. Lifers like Wagoner just are too inbred to think independently. With Mulally and now Whiteacre, this is the totally radical change that the US makers have needed. Mulally is doing great and Whiteacre looks hopeful. But both companies still face enormous risks.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Spyker purchased Saab from GM!!!! Yippee!!!! :)

    -Rocky
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,528
    Add to Rocky's post:

    image
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    It is at least as big as the LaCrosse. The new LaCrosse is a good size automobile. I just think the 9-5 would be a nice upscale Buick and with the option of a manual transmission would add a little spice to the line-up.....However it doesn't matter now because Saab, has been saved!!! :shades:

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Rocky is very happy!!! :shades:

    -Rocky
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,528
    Now this is memorable:
    from gminsidenews.com
    Buick small car based on Delta II platform. Possibly named Verano? Some suggest Excelle which is the slated name for Chinese version. Cruze also is based on Delta II.

    Good things are happening at GM.

    image
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 22,142
    I didn't think the 9-5 was in that size range. I thought it was between the laCrosse and the Regal.

    Unless something has changed really recently, the 9-5 is a bit on the small side...about the same size as a Saturn L-series, or the past two generations of Malibu...
    image
  • fezofezo Posts: 9,442
    Nice look to that.

    rock - from what I've read in the early reports GM will be keeping a piece of Saab in this whole deal. Apparently they want access to what Saab develops in teh futire. You should be a happy boy all around!
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,400
    Hmmmm...very 3-series like! We might have a winner here.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,400
    Is this good or bad? :confuse:

    Since this is a fan site, I'll refrain from any snide remarks that hit home because they are true.

    GM Lowers Price on CTS Wagon

    Regards,
    OW
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Posts: 2,770
    Maybe this is just a case of cars and CUV's rule and wagons and minivans drool ;)
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