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BMW 5-Series Sedans

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  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Garmisch, big time. We spent our first night there; WOW is the scenery nice (at the very foot of the Alps), with many picturesque buildings and such. Given that my 530i had something like 0 miles on it when we left Munich headed toward Garmisch, I kept it on the two-lane roads for the entire distance.

    As for the RPMs of a 540i 6-Speed, according to my calculations here is what the following 5ers turn at 100 MPH:

    3,508 -- 525iA
    4,315 -- 525i
    3,427 -- 530iA
    4,014 -- 530i
    3,080 -- 540iA
    3,452 -- 540iA SP
    3,195 -- 540i 6-Speed

    I hope this helps.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    As for the RPMs of a 540i 6-Speed, according to my calculations here is what the following 5ers turn at 100 MPH:

    3,508 -- 525iA
    4,315 -- 525i
    3,427 -- 530iA
    4,014 -- 530i
    3,080 -- 540iA
    3,452 -- 540iA SP
    3,195 -- 540i 6-Speed
    3,581 -- M5

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • bluewater5bluewater5 Posts: 55
    It has been a few years, but our last trip to Germany was based out of Fussen, near Garmish-Partenkirchen and other quaint towns. I remember the open drive to Munich and picturesque scenery.

    I am taking the family to Munich, Salzburg, and Fussen for a week before heading to the Black Forest and Paris for a second week plus. I am looking forward to scenic drives in a new 530. I'll need to balance my interests (BMW factory tour, Bier Gartens, driving, etc.) with the family's (Munich Olympic Site, Sound of Music Tour in Salzburg, Eiffel Tower), but I am hoping we all will be happy.

    -Bob D.
  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    shipo... Just for you, tomorrow I'll get my 540i6 up to 100 mph and write down the RPMs.

    Model.. Gear Ratio x Final Drive = Overall Ratio

    540iA.. 0.80 x 2.81 = 2.248
    540iASp 0.80 x 3.15 = 2.520
    540i6.. 0.83 x 2.81 = 2.332
    M5..... 0.83 x 3.15 = 2.615

    The C of d for each is =.31. (All are for 2002s.)

    I'm just wondering if there would be a 115 RPM difference between the non-Sport 540iA and the 540i6.
  • woobahwoobah Posts: 21
    Hi all, I have loved reading the posts on this board. I am posting this on the 3 series board as well. Here is the deal: I would love to purchase the new 5 Series BMW, but it looks like it will not be out until 2003, and I have been reading a lot of posts about letting the bugs be worked out of a new redesign of the first model year. So, it could be another two yeas before the new 5 Series is ready for purchase.

    My question is: What is the best way to go now, in terms of buying a BMW? I want to get a BMW that will give me a good resale value in two years, so I can move up to the new 5 series. So, should I save some money over new, and buy a 2000 or 2001 3 Series, 5 Series? Or, should I buy a new 3 Series, or 5 Series, which would give the most value from the needs I have listed. Thanks for any comments or suggestions.
  • john01john01 Posts: 246
    I did the similar route. I had some friends over from the states and took them down to Bavaria. Stayed in Garmih for 2 days, visiting Zugspitze, Neuschwanstein and then Salzburg. We did the Sound of Music tour and we had a great time. Just did not have enough time to visit all the nice place along the Deutsche Alpenstrasse route.

    Have a great time, I am already thinking about driving down there again.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Riez,

    Since you decided to call my bluff ;-), I decided to make my calculations a little more accurate. So without further ado, here are the new numbers:

    New# -- Old# -- Car
    4,231 -- 4,315 -- 525i
    3,439 -- 3,508 -- 525iA
    4,315 -- 4,315 -- 525i SP
    3,508 -- 3,508 -- 525iA SP
    3,936 -- 4,014 -- 530i
    3,360 -- 3,427 -- 530iA
    4,014 -- 4,014 -- 530i SP
    3,427 -- 3,427 -- 530iA SP
    3,020 -- 3,080 -- 540iA
    3,473 -- 3,452 -- 540iA SP
    3,214 -- 3,195 -- 540i 6-Speed
    3,516 -- 3,581 -- M5

    Woobah,

    Another possibility is to go for a two year lease on either a CPO or a new car, then, when the E60 is out and ready to rock, you simply cut your best deal on the E60, turn in the lease car, and you are good to go.

    FWIW, I know folks are pretty consistently recommending that first year models are to be avoided, and in the case of the E39, that was certainly good advice, however, the 1999 E46 328i sitting in my garage that I don't officially have any more, was a first year model, and it only suffered two burned out taillight bulbs. Not too bad in my book.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    woobah... I completely concur with shipo. If you want a 1-yr-old E60 5 Series then best thing to do today might be to lease a new E39 for only a couple years or lease/buy a CPO E39. That way you'll have the lease amount of cash tied up and will be in a good position to buy an E60 or maybe lease an E60 in 2004/5.

    I wholeheartedly agree about avoiding first year cars, esp. very complex ones like a 5 or 7 Series, or MB E or S Class.

    shipo... I'll let you know the 540i6 100 mph RPM number when I come back from my trip to Omaha this afternoon. It's a tough assignment but someone should do it and I'm up for the task! :)
  • bluewater5bluewater5 Posts: 55
    Making choices has been tough. For example, we may skip the trip up to Berchesgarten on the travel day between Munich and Salzburg. Instead, we may stop for lunch near the Chiemsee and get to Salzburg a little earlier. Tough choice, but we want some time to relax instead of always being on the run.

    We decided to make 2-3 night stands and tour from there instead of changing hotels every night. I hope this helps.

    -Bob D.
  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    shipo... Doing my testing this morning "east of Omaha" (as Bob Seger was sang), with light wind from the northwest and 63 degrees F...

    50 mph = 1,475 RPMs
    65 mph = 1,900 RPMs
    75 mph = 2,200 RPMs
    85 mph = 2,500 RPMs
    100 mph = 3,000 RPMs

    Note: All windows up, no A/C or ventilation in use, and cruise control on.
  • john01john01 Posts: 246
    I understand what you mean. I did try to pack in a lot of stops when I was planning, but then there was no way we could have enjoyed it while running around like a chicken without a head. I would say you can spend good 4 to 5 days b/w Munich and Salzburg to make all the stops.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Hmmm, interesting, what tires are you running on the rear of your 540i 6-Speed?

    My calculations were for a car running Michelin Pilot Sport tires in the size of 255/40 YR17, with a calculated "Revs Per Mile" of 827.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    shipo... Don't forget that the 540i6 has different sized tires front and back. All four of mine are Yokohama AVS dB:

    Front: P235/45ZR17 93W
    Rear.: P255/40ZR17 94W
  • pap5pap5 Posts: 144
    Bluewater -- We dropped our 530i off at the Harms on Ave. Foch last July. It is in a large underground parking garage that it shares with a Shell station. I'm sorry, but I can't remember on which side of Ave. de Malakoff, the major cross street, it's located. As I recall, there is a Shell sign visible from the street, but not one for Harms. It was a little difficult to find -- I believe we went down a ramp off of Foch, on the right (north) side as you drive away from the Arc de Triomphe. Once inside, the Harms office itself is small and not well marked. You find it office along the side, away from the actual parking area. The only marker I can recall to give you is that it is near a reserved area at one end of the garage, where owners keep their exotics and semi-exotics (Ferraris, Astons, Masers, etc.) behind a plastic chain.

    Negotiating huge traffic jams on the Friday afternoon before Bastille day, we were lucky to get there not long before they closed. We had to put the car in a parking space, where we were told it would sit until the following Monday or Tuesday. The spaces are narrow, a scary prospect if your car will sit there several days. When I picked it up stateside, however, there was no damage at all. Also, the first-aid kit, warning triangle, and Bavarian tourist plates were still with the car. Good luck.
  • bluewater5bluewater5 Posts: 55
    Thanks. I am driving in from Reims and think I'll just drop the car off the first day and use the Paris subways while there.

    -Bob D.
  • pap5pap5 Posts: 144
    We also dropped off the car first, before even stopping at our hotel. It may have been paranoid, but I just didn't want to break myself in on the notoriously bad Paris traffic in my shiny new 530i. In fact, this led to a major inconvenience -- funny in retrospect -- as we tried to get to our hotel sans car. We had planned to take a taxi. While we were underground, it started raining. The Harms attendant tried to call us a taxi, but no luck. We ended up dragging 3 weeks worth of luggage (2 females in my family -- packing light is not an option) through the maze of Metro tunnels and over several blocks at street level. When we arrived at the hotel, the doorman eyed us very suspiciously.

    Your itinerary closely parallels ours -- Munich, Salzburg, Fussen, Paris, etc. Speaking of biergardens, try the one in the Englischer Garten in Munich, by the Chinese Tower. Friendly, good food, and even an ompah band playing in the tower.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Ok, now that I know the tires, it does make a (albiet, very small) difference, according to my calculations here is how it all works out:

    3,215 RPMs @ 100 MPH -- 540i 6-Speed w/Michelin Pilot Sport tires
    3,211 RPMs @ 100 MPH -- 540i 6-Speed w/Yokohama AVS dB tires

    So, according to the numbers, we are about 200 RPMs off, any theorys as to why?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • bluewater5bluewater5 Posts: 55
    After Fussen, we stay in Oberkirch in the Black Forest for 3 nights. Then we have just 1 night in Reims before Paris for 5 nights.

    I wanted to see some of the Champagne district, but maybe I should leave Reims early enough to drop the luggage and family off at our hotel in the opera district and take the car back myself. By that time, I may need an extra suitcase to handle the shopping of my wife and 2 girls.

    I am at the Marriott in Munich near the Englischer Garten and will check it out.

    -Bob D.
  • mschukarmschukar Posts: 351
    Shipo-

    Did you take into account the compression of the tire against the road and therefore smaller diameter? This should increase the number of tire revolutions per mile.

    -murray
  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    shipo... Don't know why the disparity; however, the mathematical model only accounts for a few variables when there are a lot of variables. The real world results include all those variables.

    Of course, there is variability between cars even in same marque & model! Maybe my engine is more powerful than the average 540i6's? A guy can hope, can't he??? :)

    Here is more data, but this time from my wife's '00 323iA non-Sport (PP):

    50 mph = 1,750 RPMs
    60 mph = 2,100 RPMs
    65 mph = 2,250 RPMs
    75 mph = 2,575 RPMs
    80 mph = 2,775 RPMs
    100 mph = 3,550 RPMs

    This was with windows closed, A/C off, and cruise control on. I also had 210 pounds of small children on board but only a 1/4 tank of gasoline.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Unless my thinking is off from too much coffee, rpms with a manual are not effected, by load of car, a/c on or off, windows open or closed etc. Your gas mileage would be. Since there is no slippage due to a torque converter there is always a direct formula between gear, speed and rpms.

    With a manual for example, in 3rd gear going 50, your engine should always register the same number of rpms.
  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    kdshapiro... Is not my forte. Nor am I an engineer. So if I add 2,000 pounds of weight to the car, the engine won't have to rev higher to produce a desired speed in a chosen gear to offset the extra weight? Like Mario Andretti, I love to drive cars and leave the mechanical work and physics concepts to those more intelligent than I am! :)
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    On a car equipped with a manual transmission, the only reason why the RPMs would fluctuate due to load, would be if the clutch was slipping. If you add 2000 pounds of weight, you will have a more open throttle setting, allowing more air/fuel into the cylinder, causing more power, however, the RPMs would remain the same as if the car was going down hill with the wind fully aft.

    The same cannot be said for a car equipped with an automatic transmission, unless said transmission has a “Fully Locking” torque converter, which most higher end cars have these days (like all BMW automatic transmissions). Hence the fact that the 323iA driven (primarily) by Mr. Riezs’ wife indicates nearly the same RPMs as my formula would calculate, 3,550 (posted by Riez) and 3,508 (calculated by my formula).

    One of the “Givens” that I have programmed into my spreadsheet is the “Revs Per Mile” for each tire as posted on the TireRack.com web site. The tire that I am using for said “Given” is the Michelin Pilot Sport, which seems to be a tire which would generate one of the highest speeds at any given RPM of the tires of any given size. My rational for using that specific tire, is that I see it on most of the recent 5-Series cars that I have looked at (including my 530i SP). I am using this “Revs Per Mile” number because it takes into account the differences between tires of any given size, regardless of manufacturer, model, rolling resistance or compression. As a “For Instance”, consider the following chart of tires, all of which match the “Spec” for the rear tires that are currently mounted on the Riezmobile (540i 6-Speed), which is 255/40 ZR17:

    Dia. – Revs. – Tire
    24.9 – 833 – Yokohama AVS Sport
    25.0 – 825 – Kumho ECSTA Supra 712
    25.0 – 829 – Yokohama A520
    25.0 – 833 – Bridgestone Blizzak LM-22
    25.0 – 833 – Firestone Firehawk SZ50 EP
    25.0 – 834 – Sumitomo HTR Z
    25.0 – 839 – Dunlop SP Sport 9000
    25.1 – 823 – Sumitomo HTR Z II
    25.1 – 827 – Michelin Pilot Sport
    25.1 – 830 – Bridgestone Potenza S-03 Pole Position
    25.1 – 845 – Bridgestone Potenza RE020
    25.2 – 824 – Pirelli P6000
    25.2 – 826 – Yokohama AVS dB
    25.2 – 827 – Bridgestone Potenza RE730
    25.2 – 830 – Pirelli P7000 SUPERSPORT

    Interesting the differences, now, according to the math, ALL 255/40 R17 tires SHOULD have the following Diameter and Revs/Mile:

    25.0 – 806 – What the math shows

    Hmmm, something else is going on with our tires, most likely the “Compression” thing that Mschukar spoke of a few posts ago. It would seem that all tires are not made equal, even in size and the speed they yield.

    This brings me to another issue; I have heard repeatedly that “BMWs have a large speedometer error”. Interesting, I checked my 328i one time against the mile markers along the side of the highway one time, and I found virtually no error in either the Odometer or the Speedometer. Maybe the 3-Series does not have the same level of error, as does the 5-Series. Current anecdotal evidence would seem to support that, given that my 328i seems to agree with the road signs, and Mr. Riezs’ wifes’ 323i seems to agree with my calculations for a non-SP 325i (which has the same gearing as did the 323i), however, it would seem that Mr. Riezs’ 540i 6-Speed (with the Yokohama AVS dB tires) indicates 100 mph about 211 RPMs early.

    There, that should be enough fat to chew on for a while. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • bluewater5bluewater5 Posts: 55
    Here is an article on speedometer error:


    http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/features/2002/april/200204_feature_speedometer.xml


    BMWs are off by the most, reporting 73.18 when doing "true" 70 mph. European laws are more strict than US, requiring speedometers never to underreport speed, even with oversized tires. Their theory is that since people are more likely to put oversized tires on BMWs and Porsches, they have to have the most overhead.


    Beyond that, the article lists various reasons for speedometer error. Riez's tests compare speedometer and tachometer readings. The speedometer is definitely not a direct measurement. I am not sure what errors might impact the tachometer. There could just be numerous small errors that impact 2 indirect measurements that result in the disparity with Shipo's theorectical results.


    -Bob D.

  • gak48gak48 Posts: 2
    Does anyone know if a Z3 Hardtop has a workable rear window defogger? My wife got a hardtop installed at the dealership last fall and there supposedly is a switch on the console to turn the defogger on and off. However, when we removed the hardtop in the spring, I never found any wiring harness. Can't figure out how a defogger would operate without one. My wife said the rear window never seemed to clear up very well during the winter. Maybe the console control is just for decoration.

    Anybody have any info on this?
  • polo2928bpolo2928b Posts: 21
    I have a 528 2000 which I love but is lease so i have to turn it in in summer 2003, I would like to buy the new 5 series model but it will probably not be comming out in the States until beginning of 2004, does anyone know if I can order this model directly from Europe and where I could?
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    To the best of my knowledge, there is no way you can order a U.S. Spec E60 5-Series until it starts its U.S. production (which will probably be late 2003 or early 2004). That said, once again, to the best of my knowledge, BMW only has one method for ordering U.S. Spec cars from Europe, and that is via the military.

    My suggestion to you would be to extend the lease on your 528i for six months to a year, and then order your new E60 5er through normal channels.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • john01john01 Posts: 246
    As shipo said, "via military" or the diplomat sales program.
  • bluewater5bluewater5 Posts: 55
    If you get the Speed channel (150 on Dish Network), check out Autoweek (today at 5:30pm EDT is one of multiple airings). It is supposed to have a preview of 2004 5-series.

    Polo2929b: I find it hard to believe that BMW would plan on not having any 5 series available in the US for many months. If E60 production starts July 2003, there _might_ be a few US spec models available by Sept. If you want one of the first, try your dealer in late spring to see when they might start taking orders. Even German-spec cars may not be available in your time frame, though.

    -Bob D.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Cool, given I too have a Dish system, I will tape the segment as I won't be here at the time.

    Thanks for the "Heads Up".

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
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