BMW 5-Series Sedans

cdnpinhead

remember that a large percentage (I almost said majority, but I have no data to support) of people drive specific cars because of what other people think of them. I've made many references in the past to the '80's and the poseurs who decided that the BMW was the "car to have." No point in repeating.

Some of us here on Edmunds enjoy cars for what they can do. They could be painted flat black and have dents all over, so long as they did the right stuff on a corner while hitting a pothole going downhill.

Others "wear" their cars just as they would wear a tie or suit. "It looks good on you" is pretty much the same as "you look good in it."

Still others keep cars as art objects. Carefully polished, rarely driven and meticulously cared for.

Different strokes. . .

warthog

Exactly.

kdshapiro

"remember that a large percentage (I almost said majority, but I have no data to support) of people drive specific cars because of what other people think of them."

I disagree, I believe 1% of all car purchases are done to impress the neighboors. 99% of all car purchases there is a specific reason for buying the car. Several reasons could be:

- "because I can"
- "I like the way it look"
- "I like the way I look in it"
- "I like the way it drives"

People somehow like to believe that 80% of all people who buy BMW buy for "prestige" and 20% are "real" drivers. I like to believe BMW has done a bang-up job convincing the public the produce cars of a certain ilk. They have strong-brand identity. Thank the Lord people who are not "real" drivers or even "poseurs" buy BMW, if they didn't the company would go bankrupt.

riez

warthog... Like I said before, the focus on the board should be the cars, not unmeasurable, unquantifiable, and undefinable attributes like "prestige".

Maybe you can explain how we would even begin to discuss "prestige" differences between a 525i and 530i?

The average person on the road in their car at a stoplight behind both a 525i and a 530i will likely only notice one thing, if at all: there is the blue and white roundel or letters BMW signifying the marque. After that, the average person won't hardly know what 525i or 530i means. They won't know if it has a Sport Pkg, Prem Pkg, AT, MT, etc. But I guess the owner of the 525i or 530i could get out of his or her car and explain differences, price paid, etc. to those s/he encountered in the course of a driving day.

warthog

Riez--I agree that intangibles like prestige can't be readily discussed here. However, I was responding to your preaching to the poster about what he should or should not consider in buying a car. My point is that if he wants to buy on the basis of perceived prestige, or just because he likes the cute little propeller, that's his business.

erickpl

Keep in mind, if you are worried about perceived issues of 'prestige' between the 525 and 530, just take the 5xxi logo off and it will be very hard to tell which it is.

-Paul

riez

warthog... Here is what I wrote: "Don't worry about unimportant things like "prestige" or keeping up with the Jones. Get the car that is right for you and your budget."

Then I mentioned taking thorough test drives. I thought it was just common sense.

God help anyone who buys the wrong car for them that is also wrong for their budget. Is that preaching?

pat

Um, hmm, there's no need for any of this conversation to get personal ...

bmwdoug

Prestige is a buying factor. Geez, come on folks. Does anyone really think that prestige is not a factor in buying a BMW? It is like a Rolex watch. Prestige does serve a purpose for many people.

I had the the privilege of meeting a Venture Capitalist one day. He drove a 04 745il BMW, and wore a Rolex watch. I did not ask him about the BMW, but I did ask him about the watch. I said, why spend thousands more on a Rolex when you can buy a nice watch for $100. He said, "because when I go into a meeting to ask for money or make a deal, I reach out to shake hands, as I shake hands everyone pays attention to the Rolex; then everyone pays attention to me and what I have to say"

vsaxena

In almost all jobs which require persuading folks to make important decisions, appearances are very important. The person doing the selling needs to earn trust. An investor putting his money in the hands of a VC needs to know that his money will be well managed and not siphoned off in some Ponzi scheme. An appearance of wealth and "we have done that and been there" is critical in making the other party comfortable.

On the flip side, it is also a tactic used to intimidate doing negotiations; e.g.: when the VC is making a deal and trying to shoot down the valuation of the company he or she is funding. Lawyers do not need mahogany lined offices. But they do that to create an aura of power.

Beyond a certain point negotiations are all about who is perceived as more powerful. The 7 series and the Rolex all serve their purpose. These days almost every man can get a nice suit or a nice pair of shoes. The watch is perhaps the only thing a man can carry which can exude power. This is unlike a women who can wear large diamonds or other jewelry which can be discreet but still project power.

Coming back to cars, BMW is special since apart from being expensive they are also a 'driver's car'. So you can get a label you can take anywhere and a car which is a blast to drive in a single package. MBs also carry prestige but are not in the same league in the fun to drive factor as BMWs. I guess that is a reason why many folks who own Bimmers are fanatic about the brand and keep coming back for more.

designman

Rolexes are like Cadillacs—big and bumptious. Patek, Breitling and Breguet are cool.

shipo

"Rolexes are like Cadillacs—big and bumptious. Patek, Breitling and Breguet are cool."

Hmmm, I don't know about that, I consider my Rolex to be a very restrained but elegant BMW (to stay on topic, sort of) of a watch. ;-)

http://www.rolex.com/cellini/pop_cellini_classic2_01.html

Best Regards,
Shipo

div2

=Poseur

srfast

1982 and has worked flawlessly in the 8000+ days I've had it on on left wrist. Rolexes and BMWs do what they were designed to do very well. Nothing more, nothing less. BTW, my Rolex has appreciated in value in 22 years. Unfortunately, my BMW will not.

Regards...JL

kdshapiro

http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/clocks-watches/watch/watches/vac- heron-constantin/

srfast

personal reasons, but we need to remain focused on the purpose forum - talking about BMWs.

Just my $.02...JL

designman

Yep, that Cellini is an elegant piece. I would have thought that an aero buff such as yourself would take to Breitling. But as much as I like them I would never wear one—too massive.

Kd, that Vacheron is nice.

Hey, how's this for prestige… imagine an E39 M5 painted in olive drab with shark's teeth munching on the wheel wells. This P-40 has a great dentist ;-)

kdshapiro

That's great. Is that your creativity?

pen101

First, I think I saw the 507-hp e60 M5 today in LA. Only got a quick look, but noticed the M5 exhaust pipes and the fat tires.

Now for the sales totals (as reported in the August issue of Roundel):

Overall, BMW sales were up 5% YTD and 12% for June. New models (645 & X3) accounted for the sales increase, while the rest generally posted negative numbers.

5-series: YTD -1%, June -14%

Sales mix:

525: 43%
530: 37%
545: 20%

7-Series: YTD -12%, June +3%

Sales mix:

745i: 33%
745Li: 65%
760i: 2%

3-Series: YTD -7%, June -9%

Sales mix:

325: 64%
330: 24%
M3: 8%

(I know this does not equal 100%, but this is what they reported)

Z4: YTD -26%, June -5%

X5: YTD -11%, June +5%

nyccarguy

Leaving the Yankee game tonight (of course they won) I saw an E39 DINAN M5 in Blue (kind of a bright blue) with chrome M Parallel Double Spoke wheels from the E39 540i6. The car was beautiful! I peered inside as the car idled and saw the shifter light up, as well as the lights on the tach that eventually disapear when the car is warmed up enough to drop the hammer.

rroyce10

.. ** People somehow like to believe that 80% of all people who buy BMW buy for "prestige" and 20% are "real" drivers **

                 Actually, thats a pretty accurate statement, maybe not on a 80/20% split, but almost half ..... folks today look for the prestige, they want the "look", they want to say: "I Drive a Bimmer" whether it's a 94 525i with 100k, or a 04 525i with 10k - remember, enthusiasts don't buy vehicles, buyers buy vehicles ...

            The watch analogy fit's it best, the guy who wears the Rolex could have a better watch, maybe a Revue Thommen, Patek Philippe, Corum, Jaeger-LeCoultre or a Piaget .. and lets be honest, a Rolex is about as reliable as a 10 year old Cavalier, but the "name" sings volumes, it's the prestige and everyone "knows" the name, so it completes the mission ~ and BMW has done a wonderful job in completing theirs ...............

                            Terry.

riez

div2... Amen. I remember the mid-80s where having a BMW was the be-all-and-end-all. Even mediocre cars like 318ia. Then Japan Inc. (Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti) launched its assault and by about 1992 BMW, Porsche, Audi, Jaguar, and MB had suffered crushing sales declines from their mid-80s peaks.

Too bad cars like 740i suffer from all the BMW techno-overkill that removes driving utility and actually interfers with the driver-machine interface. Just look at how the column shifter works in the 745i or the seat controls. And of course there is always the iDrive debacle.

When I see someone driving a new 745i, the last thing on my mind is "prestige". I usually think something like "There goes someone who would rather be seen than enjoy the driving."

Take the September 2004 Motor Trend comparison test. The $79,954 745i Sport comes in LAST PLACE (tied with Jaguar Vanden Plas). The A8L Quattro AT6 comes in first with the Lexus LS430 second.

While they praise its performance, Motor Trend ripped into the 745i:

"the big 7 overwhelms with its forbidding, techno-complex character."

MT slammed the iDrive, the "'advanced' turn signals", and the "stalk-mounted transmission selector".

Compare that to the LS430:

"'Come on in', it seems to say. 'We've taken care of everything. Just fire me up and enjoy a remarkable ride.'"

kyfdx

The BMW is my wife's car, and I don't wear a watch. What does that say about me?

(Rhetorical question...does not require a response..LOL)

designman

It says you're in the exact same boat as me... a Stepford Husband.

;-)

kdshapiro

I don't need a magazine article to tell the the 745 is a better drivers car than the LS430, we all know it is. The LS is a torted up Avalon. A very unremarkable ride. Some people like that, that's why the ES330 as well is a best seller.

The 7 series is better looking, better driving and nicer interior. (IMO). I bought my first BMW because of what I knew about the cars, not what journalists told me. Likewise for the 7 series.

To me the LS targets 60+ years, who don't want to feel a thing on their behinds and they (Lexus) were successful at that. Me I want to know the car is underneath me.

All in all the LS does not far and away outsell the 7. It certainly has not been the failure that has been portended in these forums. In spite of the fact that Motortrend liked the LS better.

The 740i was dubbed the best luxury sedan in it's class ever and it is now dated. The 745 takes up where it left off.

div2

I entered the BMW Scene(in a Bavaria 3.0) about the time the status seekers "Discovered" BMWs-1983. Back then Bimmer owners still flashed each other with their high beams. I lusted after a 533i but it was much too pricey. Since then I've bought new and used Bimmers and I usually coveted the "latest and greatest" offerings from Munich. Not any more; the only new BMW that lights my fire is the 330i Performance Package. I also like the 4.8is-a guilty pleasure as it is so fast and outrageous for an SUV. In the newer cars the superior driving experience is being diluted by techno-electronic gadgetry and bizarre styling. I DO like the 120i, and I'd buy one in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, BMW NA doesn't think that there is a market for the five door 1er in the US. Which is why I'm currently looking for a Beemer. Unless I find a nice Speed Triple or Daytona in the meantime...

riez

div2... I concur, though my BMW-lust arose in late 1970s when I was in high school.

Is a shame that BMW won't bring the 120i over, though I wonder if a 120ia will be too underpowered, like the 318i Compact was in the mid-1990s. (Remember test driving one with wife, who can only drive automatics. No power at all.)

The gadgetry (and resulting issues with reliability and longevity) really are off putting. Not to mention the use of such to replace truly useful driver aids like LSD. [Always burned me that my former $60,000 540i6 didn't even have LSD.]

div2

1983 was when I bought my first Bimmer. My interest in BMWs began in 1971 when I noticed the first Bavaria ads-which described a 130 mph car that cruised at 120. Then I ran across a copy of DED Jr.'s "Turn Your Hymnals to 2002". I was hooked. As a matter of fact, one of my prized possesions is a copy of the C&D magazine containing that article. Mr. Davis was kind enough to autograph it for me at O'fest 1992.
As for the four cylinders, yes you really need a manual to extract the best performance from them. It's sad that driving a stick is becoming a lost art. I'd also like to try some of the diesel BMWs that AG is selling across the pond. I hope we're not going back to the situaution of two decades ago-when Munich decided to keep their best BMWs at home...

cassidym

Anybody got the Heads Up Device? I've ordered a 2005 545I but am still wondering about the HUD. Only things you can project onto the windscreen are your speed (in digital format) and the right hand side of the NAV screen. Also the Adaptive Cruise Control data if you have that option.

I'm getting NAV and wonder if this gadget is worth it.

glaker

I’ve read some postings asking questions about extended warranties (beyond the original new car warranty). I was at my dealership on Friday and found some details concerning the supposedly new extended/upgraded maintenance program. To go from the standard BMW 4/50 maintenance program to the extended 6/100 program costs $985 for the 3 series (except the M), the Z3 and Z4, while it costs $1195 for all other models and the M3. According to the pamphlet it covers “all factory-recommended maintenance as listed in the BMW Service and Warranty Information booklet. It also includes the replacement of items that are not covered by the BMW Limited Warranty – such as brake pads, brake rotors, wiper blade inserts- when wear and tear exceeds BMW specifications”.
On the other hand, exclusions include “components or parts on any vehicle that are subject to gradual deterioration or normal wear and tear as the result of driving habits, conditions or use of the vehicle.” The fine print then specifically lists such excluded items as piston rings, valves and valve guides, suspension bushings, ball joints, tie rod ends, and drive shaft flex discs. Finally, they exclude items such as engine, transmission and body adjustments, batteries, hoses, exhaust systems, headlamps and a bunch of other things including upholstery carpeting, etc.
Having only had my 530 for one year, I haven’t yet experienced the value of the maintenance/repair warranty, but I guess I’ll have to do some ‘thinkin’ and ‘cypherin’ before I decide on whether it’s a good deal.

Div2 - I took delivery of a 330 with performance package on Thursday and it is absolutely awesome!

div2

Congratulations! The PHP makes a great car into a legendary car-its the only new 3er I'd have.

nyccarguy

Congrats on a beautiful new ZHP! Enjoy it!

As far as the 6/100 extended maintenance package goes. What are your driving habits? How long are you going to keep the car? How many miles do you plan on putting on it?

The maintanance package is just that, maintanance, it IS NOT an extended warranty. If you're going to have the car past the 4/50 b to b warranty and free maintenance package, maybe it is something you should consider... Find out the cost of Inspection II at your dealership (at 60K miles it will be the first post free maintenance), a basic oil change, brake job (BMW replaces pads and rotors at the same time. You could also look around your area to see if there are any good independent BMW mechanics in your area.

bavaria

It has been discussed or rumored before in this forum, but does anyone know when or if BMW is going to bring out the 535 with more horsepower. I am looking to buy 530, but would wait if I know 535 is coming out soon. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

sdg380

Bavaria, this is a site with a fairly detailed discussion of new 6-cylinder engines, and makes reference to a new magnesium 3.0 liter with Valvetronic, good for 258 hp, and a 3.5 liter turbo-diesel. But it wasn't clear to me if these are for '05 and/or US market.

http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2040718.001/bmw/1.ht- ml

bavaria

Great information. I did not realize the increase in HP was based on a new 3.0 engine. Thought it was the 3.5, but with the increase in HP the 3.0 might suffice. Just need it to come out in Sept. Wonder if BMW will announce new engine for US for 05. Thanks

driver5

Just returned from a 6000 mile trip in my new 525i.Averaged 34MPG,with AC on and fully loaded, mostly at 80MPH , 20% city driving. I used Premium as recommended. intend to try the mid grade next. Anyone have any ideas on that. I just traded in my 2000528i and I had used mid grade fuel for 68,000 miles with no problems. love my new 525i. ( just would not put up the additional $5M for the 530)This new one is super in every way.I do use the manual and super drive a lot. It is a lot bigger,especially the trunk. I got the folding rear seats, and find it much more flexible to organize my wife's 3 suitcases and my little suitcase and golf clubs. The I control is easy to get used to.Wished I could have gotten the NAV system,but I was too impatient, Still hate the brake dust and the cupholders.The interior room on this car seems a lot bigger and taller. I am really getting used to the styling.Platinum Silver is awsome.Interior,light grey.Active Steering , Xenon headlights and rain sensors are great.

kyfdx

Why would you take a chance to save $5 a month?

div2

Exactly! The so-called "savings" add up to less than 18 cents per day. That assumes that you drive 15000 miles per year and average 24 mpg on both fuel grades. OTOH, maybe there's something to this; I think I'll start running generic 30W oil in the 3er and 5er; I'll run by the Dollar Store at lunch and pick up a couple of cases. Maybe some white box oil filters too. And Big O tires(speed ratings are a huge waste of money)!

zpjp

I have just ordered a 2004 545i and the dealer has told me that their service department is not able not install bluetooth.

Does anyone actually use bluetooth with the 2004 5 series in the US?

ali

i am shopping around for a 2001 - 2002 5 series. any suggestions b/w 525 vs 530? is 530 worth the extra bucks?
thanks for the help.

riez

ali... Only you will know. You should take at least two very, very thorough test drives to see the differences in performance. Drive the roads you drive in the traffic you drive. And only you know your budget and what you can afford.

Get what meets your needs and your budget.

[If you are going to get an automatic, the 525ia might be a bit underpowered in comparison to the 530ia. If you enjoy driving, get one with Sport Pkg. Even the 525i manual with Sport Pkg is a blast to drive and drive hard. The 530i just provides more power.]

shipo

We went through the 525i vs. 530i debate (in a fairly spirited fashion I might add) last winter. The thread generally starts at the following link and continues for several pages.

Post 8297

From my point of view, there is no comparison in performance; the 530i is substantially faster and easier to drive when compared to an otherwise identical 525i. For the extra couple of bucks, you will get a car that gets better mileage (in manual transmission form), has substantially better acceleration and better brakes (the 530i has the same brakes as the 540i).

Then again (as you will see if you look up the old posts), those with a poorly calibrated "Butt Dyno" seem to have a problem feeling the difference in the acceleration. My recommendation; follow Reiz's advice and drive both.

Best Regards,
Shipo

kyfdx

I'm getting my Butt Dyno calibrated tomorrow.. I think they missed that at my 15K service..

rich545

Along these lines, one really funny thing about my 545 that I didn't see for about a week after getting it. Inside the trunk there is a little sign velcro-ed to the side. It is a diagram of how to fit 4 golf bags into the trunk! I also read that the 7 series' trunk has such an odd shape specifically so that 4 golf bags would fit nicely into it. Now, I like to stay away from generalizations, but I would say that both things indicate that BMW is certainly targeting a certain group just as much as that group is targeting their cars. I'll only speak for myself here (and I am in no way bragging because I don't even know any of you anyway) I drive the 545 because it is an amazing car to drive, and I wear a Rolex because it is a great watch in terms quality and because I like how it looks. I don't care one bit what other people think of either the car or the watch. Honestly, I never lusted after either. I just bought both because I liked them and I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford them at this time. But in general to say that BMW's are not purchased because of perceived prestige value as a factor is simply ignorant. Take the executive above as an example. I really doubt he'd feel comfortable driving his clients to the golf course in a Subaru WRX. Supposedly, it's a "driver's car" in that it's quick and handles well. But it certainly doesn't project the image that said venture capitalist is trying to project.

rich545

I'm sure others here know a lot more about the potential problems from using mid-grade gas (maybe I'm a sucker because I wouldn't use mid-grade in my 545i unless I had no other choice) then I do so I'll leave that to them. About the brake dust though, I completely agree. Man, you get the car washed and it has brake dust on the wheels by the time you get home. I guess it's a trade off though. The brakes are huge and really good. I also agree about the syling. Mine is silver grey and I think it looks great. I honestly hated the new design at first, but it must be catching on because I'm starting to see them all over the place here (in Chicago). I didn't get NAV either for the same reason (too impatient). I actually like the cup holders. They seem to hold any cup I've tried in them. I think that where they are located is a bit odd, but they seem to work well.

bmwmrc1

Let your personal preference make the decision. Many including myself chose a fully loaded 03' E39 525i with premium, sport and auto. And at 12,000 miles I couldn't be more thrilled. I could have easily purchased the 530. I chose not to.

I couldn't justify an extra $4,000 for 41 more hp. IMO, my car is plenty fast and one+ second is not really going to be that major. You want major, get a 540.

Some here that are hung up on HP and not the total car (fit and finish, handling, ride) may need that extra HP to justify their lack of "anatomy dyno." (LOL!)

In the end, test drive both cars. Put them through their paces and choose the one that FITS your needs and not any of us on this board.

driver5

So you are saying, It will take me how many years to save enough money to buy my Rolex ? H'mmmm! $60 a year ( at 15,000 miles a year at 30MPG). I guess I will keep my Timex. However you did not answer the question. I look at saving $2.00 per tankfull ( usually .10 cts a gallon less than premium).I guess whatever BMW says must be true and we should not question it.I am just saying that I have used medium grade in 3 BMW 5 series to date and find it works just fine. I definitely would not use it in a 545i.My 525i is not a high performance engine, and does not need Premium fuel.I don't think this calls for stupid comments like " I should go to the dollar store and buy cheap tires, cases of cheap oil etc."Those kind of responses belong on a NASCAR forum.

shipo

"I guess whatever BMW says must be true and we should not question it. I am just saying that I have used medium grade in 3 BMW 5 series to date and find it works just fine. I definitely would not use it in a 545i. My 525i is not a high performance engine..."

Ummm, maybe I just don't understand what a "high performance" engine is, however, according to my calculations, both of the I6 engines available here in the U.S. are HIGHER performing engines than the 4.4 liter V8. Consider the following (taken from the manual of my 2002 E39 530i):

Engine--- Displacement--- ---HP--- ---HP/Liter---
--2.5 I6-- ----2494 CCs----- --184--- ---73.78---
--3.0 I6-- ----2979 CCs----- --225--- ---75.53---
--4.5 V8- ----4398 CCs----- --290--- ---65.94---

"Yeah", you say, "but now the new and improved V8 is out in the E60, and it is rated at higher power than the old engine."

True, however, the new engine is now finally on par with the two I6's as the following line shows:

--4.5 V8- ----4398 CCs----- --325--- ---73.90---

Which works out to 0.12 HP per Liter than the "Low Performance" 2.5 I6 mill.

Maybe it's just me, however, any 3.0 liter I6 that can propel my 530i down the road at 150+ full of passengers, fuel and luggage is anything but a low performance engine. As such, I treat it accordingly and feed it premium fuel.

As for your $2.00 savings per tank, I have to say that I doubt it. When was the last time that you put 20 gallons in at a fill-up? Also, you are not taking into account your reduced fuel economy with the lower grade fuel. Fact, the engine electronics on our I6 engines keep the engine at the ragged edge of "Best Economy" and "Best Power" where ever and when ever possible. Fact, when our engines are run on less than premium fuel, the OBC retards the timing of the spark, and as such, delays the flame front to later in the combustion cycle, which reduces fuel economy. Does the extra economy provided by premium fuel offset the whopping 5% increase in the cost when compared to mid-grade fuel? My bet it does that and then some.

Best Regards,
Shipo

div2

Excellent points. Some people simply don't understand that pesky power-to-weight ratio concept. As for displacement and horsepower, I remember how the M10 in my Bavaria 3.0 made a whopping 170 net hp. Of course it had dual Zeniths and a Bosch distributor and coil; Motronic was still a few decades down the road.

riez

driver5... Even though the 525i engine has knock sensors, you should always use the recommended fuel. Using fuel of a lower octane will ordinarily reduce engine output and, possibly, fuel economy. It is a real win (save a buck)-lose (reduced performance and economy) situation.

Car & Driver did some testing a few years ago. They found all but one car tested performed worse using lower-than-recommended octane fuel.

If you can afford a 525i, you can afford to buy the proper fuel.

Hope you aren't tempted to skimp on tires, transmission/brake/coolant fluid, service intervals, etc. all in a futile attempt to save a buck or two?