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BMW 5-Series Sedans

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Comments

  • cmybimmergocmybimmergo Member Posts: 265
    Will you please define "recent"? I'm not a BMW CCA member; if I can track down someone who has back issues, it would be nice to know which one I need.

    After reading your post, I looked elsewhere and found several mentions on another board, but no actual explanations or solutions. But what I don't get is how, if it's so well known, no one I've spoken to has ever heard of or experienced it.
  • cmr530icmr530i Member Posts: 278
    As a new BMW CCA member, I only have a half dozen issues archived, but I did run across a Mike Miller answer to someone who had a 1995 525i pop out of 1st gear. Mike attributed this to a rare but well-known defect in the S5D 250G manual gearbox. He states that a number of S5D 250Gs produced up to 04/98 had an incorrectly machined guide sleeve on first and second gear. In time, this defect causes the pop out problem. I know that the car at issue here is the E39, but could it also have a similar rare defect, only that it is not that well-known yet? Mike's answer said that there was a Service Information Bulletin, 23 02 99 that detailed the problem amd limited it to the E36 3 series, but that the same gearbox is used in the E34 5 series six cylinder models. He said that "if the complaint was under warranty, BMW would have replaced the gearbox with a factory remanufactured unit. Today, the gearbox can be repaired with an updated first and second gear guide sleeve." This repair requires the technician to remove and completely disassemble the gearbox. FYI, He knows of only four BMW manual gearbox rebuilders nationwide:
    Bavarian Engine Exchange (www.bmwengine.com)
    Brett Anderson (www.koalamotorsport.com)
    Jim Blanton (www.performancegearing.com)
    Jim Rowe: (www.metricmechanic.com)
    Mike says that a rebuilt from these guys will result in a stronger gearbox than stock. They might also work with you if you just want a new guide sleeve.
    Hope some of this info helps in some way to get to the bottom of the E39 manual gear pop out problem.
    P.S. The Roundel issue I referenced was from Sept. 2005
  • cmybimmergocmybimmergo Member Posts: 265
    This is the most helpful information I have seen. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

    Happy New Year to you and everyone else on this board.
  • juniorbmwjuniorbmw Member Posts: 29
    I took a change and purchased a Nextel i870 bluetooth cellular phone yesterday, even though Nextel isn’t listed on BMW’s list of officially supported Bluetooth compatible phone list.

    I enjoyed some (enough) success in that the phone paired with the vehicle with very little difficulty and I’m able to make and receive phone calls, as well as use the voice command feature to dial numbers.

    The only limitation is that I’m unable to download my cell phone’s phonebook to the vehicle; I guess that was the reason why Nextel didn’t make BMW’s list of officially supported Bluetooth compatible phone list.

    Still, I’m happy to report that the core features of the phone are available through BMW’s bluetooth, and can only hope in time that the technology will improve that will allow the phonebook to be downloaded.

    I realize that Nextel’s phone service is different from other carriers, e.g. T-Mobile or Verizon Wireless, primarily because of their walkie-talkie feature, but I’ve opted to stay with Nextel and just a little happy that all the bluetooth features work save for the phonebook downloading. This offers a viable option for those BMW owners who need Nextel’s phone service.

    I’m sure bluetooth technology will improve in the future, so there is hope for improved connectivity between Nextel (now owned by Sprint) & BMW. :D
  • jhammelljhammell Member Posts: 38
    This is my wife's car and she tells me that she does not use the shift knob as a hand rest. I don't either when I am driving.
  • jhammelljhammell Member Posts: 38
    I had this problem on every service ticket we had (probably 5 times) and finally I was able to convince the service advisor (who is a BMWCCA fan who comes to watch us run at Road ATL often (I use my 1985 VW GTi not the 530i)) to make something happen. He did and we received the re manufactured transmission although it was not installed exactly correct as some of the bolts securing the unit came loose after a few hundred miles. Constantly listing the problem worked for us.
  • div2div2 Member Posts: 2,580
    I'm just looking at all the possibilities. One thing I do know for certain is that it is extremely unusual for a BMW MT to fail; they will usually last for an extremely long time. Here's a quote from an E36 Racing list I'm on:

    We ran the 180,000 mile transmission that came with our
    car from 1999, when we built it into a race car until the middle of this summer. Over 100 sprint races, and through 6 enduros of 8 hours or more. When we pulled it out, we saved it as a spare. It just grumbles a little going into
    5th.
  • jhammelljhammell Member Posts: 38
    Thanks for this posting. I have a Regional Technical person coming tomorrow and I have already made a request to the BMW Consumer Affairs about this and other problems we have already experienced with this car.

    I was told on Friday by the service advisor the the hydraulics of the transmission are fine but that there is a problem with the syncros and or the throw out bearing determined so far. On the surface this indicates that the remaufactured transmission is OK (but it still has popped out of second gear but not as often) and that other components are defective. I am still concerned about the long term durability of the transmission as we plan to keep this car at least ten plus years until a worthy replacement of the E39 arrives.

    BTW we do have a brand new 2006 325i with the steptronic and I have to say that that motor is amazing as it spins right up to 7,000 RPM's and sounds great. If I could get the new 3.0 R6 motor with a good 6 speed manual in the E39 we have I would be very happy.
  • jhammelljhammell Member Posts: 38
    I want to believe that our E39 will be just as durable as all of the E30's, E36's and other BMW's I see at Road ATL, Barber and Roebling Road. This car has been pampered as it is our first BMW and is still a very new car to us. It looks great (Sterling Grey, SP, PP, tinted windows etc.) when the wheels are clean so we would like for it to run as good as it looks.
  • mikerochmikeroch Member Posts: 69
    Hi,

    My wife and I are almost signing the deal for a 530xi and are now being told by the dealer (we're in Canada) that the 2007 model year production run is going to start in March so that we could have an '07 by the end of April....i.e. that BMW is starting the new model year run now instead of in the fall. She is also saying that there won't be any changes from the '06....

    Any comments?

    Thanks.
  • mikerochmikeroch Member Posts: 69
    This relates to an '06 530xi.....

    Are any of the climate, radio, navigation functions able to be voice controlled by the driver (with iDrive)? (Or, is it only via the iDrive controller and/or using the steering wheel buttons...?). (With Bluetooth "prep" I assume the telephone functions are handsfree, but what about these other items?).

    Also, anyone have pictures of the comfort seats in beige (with ventilation)? (preferable with the dark poplar high gloss wood, if possible.....thanks).

    Thanks
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    For the E60...

    iDrive Voice Commands
  • mikerochmikeroch Member Posts: 69
    Wow - I guess that answers my voice command question!

    Thanks.
  • zeamerzeamer Member Posts: 1
    Since reading threads posted here helped me better informed, I felt obliged to do my share after becoming an owner myself.

    I took delivery of a 2006 530i in January equipped with all the toys (heads-up display being my favorite along with the active steering). The fun and satisfaction are simply awesome. It really puzzles me WHY people still go with the DULL Mercedes, Lexus and the alike. My advice: Get a Beamer, and you will NOT regret.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    Wow - I guess that answers my voice command question!

    Better study up.... There's a test tomorrow on all of those voice commands! :P
  • housleyhousley Member Posts: 3
    I am on my 4th BMW. I had a 2002 540i, X3 and currently own a Z4 2.5 and most recently purchased a 2006 525xi. I love all of my cars except for this one. I have vibration that is intermittent at speeds from 40 up. The dealership has been working on balancing tires for the last 30 days. The car drives like a 2 year old Ford.

    Anybody else having problems? Thanks.
  • div2div2 Member Posts: 2,580
    My advice: Get a Beamer, and you will NOT regret.

    Bimmer=BMW Car
    Beemer/Beamer(sic)=BMW Motorcycle
  • turnbowmturnbowm Member Posts: 76
    ".....It really puzzles me WHY people still go with the DULL Mercedes, Lexus and the alike....."

    My wife prefers driving her Lexus to driving my 530i. Different strokes for different folks!

    Martin
  • 540dude540dude Member Posts: 38
    I had had Dunlop Winter Sport M3s on my 2003 540i Sport for 3 seasons. They are fantastic in snow, rain and dry. I strongly recommend them.
  • jzshorejzshore Member Posts: 1
    I just recently purchased my 2006 525xi 2 weeks ago and it runs fine above 40mph. The car came with BMW approved Continental all season tires. I'm still breaking the car in and have only put about 850 miles on it. We took the car on a nice 2 hour trip to the mountains in PA and the engine ran very smooth. I had plenty of power under 2500 rpm, which enabled me to keep up with the highway traffic. I love this car and all the technology that's packed into it. The I drive is easy to use and the Nav system works great. Today I had the pleasure of driving the car in the snow. I used the DTC and it blew me away. I was following a Ford F150 up a slippery hill that wasn't plowed well, which had a stop sign at the top. The Ford F150 struggled to get the traction it needed to get across the intersection. The 525xi with the DTC activated grabbed the unplowed street like it was on dry pavement and I was in total awe. I can't Wait to hit 1,200 miles so I could try out the Steptronic in Sport or the 6 speed. I was advised to hold off using those two features before the break in period is over. The manual only says not to use the Kickdown or accelerate to quickly and I'm taking good care of this vehicle. I believe your problem has to do with wheel balancing or it could be your alignment. Either way BMW gives a good warranty with your car and they should fix it for you. If your not happy with the Dealership taking to long to repair everything ,you have every right to go to a better Dealership for service. Keep in mind that BMW just like any other car manufacturer can make a mistake in the production of any model that rolls out of their plant. In the same breath BMW gives good service and should correct the problem for you. Hope they resolve your problem soon.
  • rainmaker2rainmaker2 Member Posts: 14
    I recently ordered a 5. Is there any way for me to check the BMW factory using my order number to see when the car will be available?
  • srfastsrfast Member Posts: 138
    You need to get the BMW factory production # for your car. Call your salesperson for this info. Once you get the #, go to www.bmwusa.com and register on the "Owner's Circle."

    Good luck.....JL
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    Go to BMW Owners' Circle. When you register, it will ask for the VIN or the Production Number. Enter that number, plus your personal information, and you'll get your car's own webpage. One of the things you can do on that page is "Track Your Order."
  • goldbug06goldbug06 Member Posts: 3
    Hi guys,
    I am in the process of ordering 530i,
    is comfort access option really helpful and fun to use?
    Will appreciate a feedback.
  • mikerochmikeroch Member Posts: 69
    Hi,

    In process (almost) of ordering 530xi (waiting for 2007 order sheet which saleswoman says is due to be released any time....).

    What are opinions of Head's up? Loses the green tint at top of windshield - is this a problem...?!

    Thanks.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I have the smart key on my new Audi A6. For $750 is is an expensive novelty that is most appreciated on the rare instance when you have both hands full and are unable to open the door with the fob.

    The rub is, of course, if this is the case you still can't open the door without freeing up a hand.

    On the Bimmer it is $1,000 right?

    I love the voice command and if it is a choice, I would pass the comfort access and get voice. If voice is standard it is pretty cool the first few times to just press the start button.

    But not for $750 or $1000.

    Jus' one man's opinion.
  • googamooga99googamooga99 Member Posts: 2
    Same problems here. Window act funny up and down at times, vibration they cant get rid of, and a transmission failure yesterday, but it started working again.

    I'm pissed. it's got 4,000 miles on it.

    Googa
  • googamooga99googamooga99 Member Posts: 2
    Anyone else having vibrations at hwy speeds? 2 trips in and a new set of tires later, it still vibrates. Window inadvertently goes up and down on its own. Got message yesterday of a transmission failure. Car stuck in neutral, then went into some emergency mode and still kept going. Stopped, restarted, and problem went away at least temporarily. Wife had a problem the day before with the transmission.

    Did I get a lemon?

    Googa
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    On the Bimmer it is $1,000 right?

    "Comfort Access" (as BMW calls it) is $500 for the 3-series and $1000 for the 5-series and 7-series.
  • mikerochmikeroch Member Posts: 69
    Any comments on this? anyone?

    Thanks.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    And on the Audi it is $750.

    It is NOT worth these kind of prices IMHO.

    Or, compared to voice command which is usually a fraction of the cost, there is somehow an upside down valuation here.

    Pushbutton start is cool.

    My dad's Hudson Hornet had it.

    It is overpriced -- but that is just one opinion.

    I bought it for the cool factor and I don't dislike it.

    At $35 - $40+ a tank for gas, well you do the math what $750 would get you in that dept.

    I'd get it again at half price.

    Or if it "came with."
  • mikerochmikeroch Member Posts: 69
    Hi,

    I assume that the all wheel drive in the 530xi is better for snow etc. conditions than the rear wheel drive in the 550i....and this is important to us (Canada).

    However, given the new modern traction control devices etc. in the 550i, what is the "real" advantage of the awd 530xi over the 550i? In other words, is the 550i a "bad" choice for snow, or is it "almost as good" traction wise as the awd??

    The dealership said we would need snow tires anyway with the 18" wheels on the sport pkg with the 530xi....so if we need them anyway, could get for the 550i already, I suppose....

    Finally, what is the gas mileage penalty with a 550i over the 530xi?

    Any comments/info/experience would be appreciated!!!!

    Thanks.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    We are now at a point in engineering and customer experiences and preferences where AWD is seen to be the "system" that provides the highest performance in the real world -- the streets, roads, highways and freeways (and autobanhs) that most of us drive on.

    The highest performance offerings or among the highest performance offerings are the AWD variants of the various "super" car companies.

    Dr. Piech predicted this would happen. He was ahead of his time for he predicted this over 25 years ago and produced a very successful idea he called quattro. It was so capable it became "outlawed" in racing as it could beat all comers.

    About 2 decades went by where the RWD crowd argued that AWD was unfair and inferior to RWD (hmmm, how could that be?)

    In 2004 a bunch of high zoot cars came to market offering either AWD as standard or optional in at least one of their cars brought to market.

    We now have:

    Audi
    Acura
    BMW
    Cadillac
    Infiniti
    Jaguar
    Lexus
    Mercedes
    Porsche
    Saab
    Volvo
    VW

    . . .and others of higher and lower "class" and the list continues to expand and extend.

    AWD is or is becoming one of the highest performance characteristic (feature) of cars. Audi, Cadillac, Mercedes, Porshce, Saab, Volvo and VW all offer V8's, V10's or V12's with AWD, while the other guys offer 4's and 6's in AWD.

    Every year as high, higher, highest performance is brought to make it appears as if it is being done in cooperation with all wheel drive.

    For all the reasons Dr. Piech suggested way back in 1980.

    I have no proof, only speculation, that the most powerful and higest performance BMW's will with in a few years always be offered in AWD and may actually be ONLY offered in AWD.

    Basically, Porsches AWD and Lambos AWD are their highest performance vehicles.

    AWD does offer "go in the snow" capabilities -- but its ability to improve driving in the dry is or should be well known by now."

    If the best and biggest of the bunch is needed and budget is not an issue -- go the W 12 Audi A8Ls without fear, thd the V8 or S8 have a great follwong.

    Yet, I am now able to do the same thing aout the SAAbaaaaa,
    Getting

    The new Audis with RWD biased AWB are sold to be sold into a best of Year sttod in hi wah,

    AWD is the true future for high perofmrance vehicles. A lot of them seem NOT to know that but it seems the marjority do believe that AWD will be the passenger cars, soon.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Mark, who is an unflinching advocate for AWD, makes a great case for you to consider a car so equipped, and if you were considering an Audi he would be absolutely correct, however, in the Sport Package equipped BMW world things are a little different and as such the decision isn't quite so clear cut. Why? Well, unlike Audi, BMW does not offer a true Sport Package on their xi models, in fact, of the three possible suspension setups available on the 5-Series; the one that comes with the "xi" models is the least capable on dry roads. Simply put there is the "xi", the "i" and the "i SP" models. Admittedly the difference between the "xi" models and the standard "i" models amounts to a matter of ride height (about a half of an inch or so) and as such the difference between the two should be marginal at best, with the nod going to the "i" on dry pavement and a BIG nod going to the "xi" in less than ideal traction conditions. That having been said, when you throw the SP into the picture the rules change fairly dramatically. On the "xi SP" models, the Sport Package is simply cosmetic (seats and trim), while on the "i SP" models BMW upgrades not only the seats and trim but also the suspension and the wheels and tires. That equates to a huge nod to the RWD SP models on dry pavement, and of course a fairly significant nod to the AWD SP models in slippery conditions.

    Were it me trying to decide between the 530xi SP and the 550i SP, it would be no contest; I'd choose the 550i and buy a set of winter tires. In fact, I did just that on my former 530i SP, and drove it through three snowy winters here in New Hampshire (we totaled over 7.5 meters of snow during those three winters) without saying to myself "gee, I wish I had a 530xi" even once.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • jfirbjfirb Member Posts: 9
    I got this message 3 weeks ago with only about 43k miles. And my dealer added one quart as the iDrive recommended. Just yesterday I got "Engine oil at minimum level" again in just 3 weeks with less than 1k additional miles! It's like my car is drinking the oil. Called the dealer and made the appt on Monday. Have you guys seen this? What was the problem?
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Great points and it of course begs the question "why?" with respect to the xi offerings not having a true sport option. Audi has the Sline which adds wheels, tires and suspension calibration settings that do contribute to what most of us would call a more sporting attitude.

    Yet when were the 5 series offered with the 255HP and x drive in the US. Has it been 6 months since these cars were widely available?

    And, add to the answers of this question the statements from my BMW dealer who says the X cars have had remarkable sales growth. My wife was ONLY interested in a 3 series with X drive. The brochure said steptronic was an OPTION, but there were no sticks that could be had and due to the transition time, no new 3x orders were allowed.

    Oh, what the heck, we'll test drive the X3 before we go back to the Audi store and buy one of their A4's which, too, only came with tiptronics (at that time) but comes with a 3.2 liter 255hp engine and sport package (as options.)

    What happened next was typical: the X3 became a serious contender to the Audi A4, the Mercedes C 4Matic and the 330xi (MY 2005.)

    Then I asked about sales in December 2005 -- 40% of the 5's sold are now X drive and that is inventory constrained.

    10% of 3's are so equipped -- but they claim nearly all 325's are sold as X drive versions.

    Imagine if BMW offers a true sport package (the X3 sport package upgrades the wheels to 18", lowers the profile of the tires (and widens them, too) and stiffens the springs, etc.) for the 3's and 5's and ultimately adds X drive to the 7 series. Then imagine if BMW extends the X drive to its cars with more than 6 cylinders. In the US, at least, you would think this would wound Audis sales even further (in contrast to BMW's.) BMW already outsells Audi by what 3 to 1 (in the 5's vs the A6, this is certainly the case, I suspect the 3's substantially outsell the A4's, too)?

    The buying public that eschews Audi or Japanese or other European brands for BMW must have -- based on their buying behavior here in a small city that has 2 BMW's stores, one the largest in our state -- been snatching up all available 3 and 5 series X drives.

    Unleash the inventory and I'd wager a broad increase in X drive sales -- not just here in SW Ohio where we do get a few (very few) flakes of snow from time to time.

    Every A6 sold in the last year here (of course) was AWD, every Acura RL, ditto. It appears (completely without statistical verification) to me that at least 1/3 of all Mercedes have the little chrome "4Matic" on their rear ends, too.

    BMW is motivated by what sells. DOH! A blinding glimpse of the obvious, I know.

    But based on reading and participating in these blogs for years now, I never would have guessed or predicted a rise in sales of 5 series Bimmers at 40% X drive. The (almost) animus of many posters (pre-widespread X drive BMW offerings) was that "AWD cars were really posers and almost not worth of being called sport sedans" (sic).

    Maybe folks can point to Audis shift from 50 50 AWD bias to 40 60 RWD/AWD bias and say "see we told you so."

    I have been told and have started to come around to this belief that probably a lot of folks don't know if their AWD car is FWD/AWD, RWD/AWD or 50 50 AWD -- AND they don't know or care if their systems are based on this that or the other AWD technologies. Credit to Acura for at least attempting to make SH-AWD have some meaning to the customer.

    But really credit BMW for "wet tongue, frozen pole," the BMW angles and the current snowball campaign (for the 3 series.) BMW is selling the concept, selling safety, selling performance, selling selling selling.

    The contrast between the SH-AWD commercials and the BMW commercials is striking. The SH-AWD (marketing) seems to appeal to the left brain almost exclusively. The X-drive (marketing) seems to "get to the left brain" via the "right brain."

    Whatever is happening, we are moving at a faster pace than I would have imagined (but still not fast enough for my tastes) to AWD just being another tick on the option box -- in some respects like "power steering" used to be. Everyone got it but it was optional years after it almost certainly had become "expected."

    Now if someone will address if BMW USA just doesn't offer true sport packages on the X drive cars because they "can't" (that is, are true X drive sport variants available in other markets?) or because they "don't believe the customer wants it?

    It seems, based on our regional appetites AWD cars are being sold "like hotcakes."

    One more anecdote -- I don't think I have even seen an Infiniti M35 that DIDN'T have the "x" after the 35.

    Maybe the new Q7 from Audi isn't too late after all.

    A BMW M5 w/X-drive -- or an M3, ditto. Wouldn't that put the fear of something into Audi with respect to the S6, S8, S4, RS4, etc etc etc?

    Competition is really making the marketplace more interesting every day. :shades:
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Why?" That does indeed seem to be the question of the hour regarding the growth of AWD systems in general and the substantial success if BMWs "xi" models in particular.

    My view of "Why?" is, ummm, a little cynical to say the least. Dovetailing with your comments about marketing, I believe that the AWD marketeers [sic] have been, if anything, maybe a little too successful. All too often I hear folks say things like, "I live in and NEED a car with AWD." Never mind the fact that they've been driving for twenty years with some flavor of a 2WD car shod with crummy All-Season tires in that same location; they've been convinced that unless they get AWD on their next car they'll crash and burn when the very next snowflake falls.

    In my case there is little doubt that if I lived high in the Rockies or Sierras or even the White Mountains here in New Hampshire, I'd seriously consider a car with AWD. That I live in an area with rolling hills and winding roads and lots of snow means (to me at least) that I don't need AWD, a 2WD car shod with a good set of winter tires will serve me just fine. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Typically Americans keep the same set of tires on year 'round. Perhaps we're just lazy.

    Buy a sport package equipped RWD BMW 3 series (it will have summer only tires) and come winter IT WILL be slip slidin' away even here in River City the home of almost no snow and what little we have rarely sticks.

    But, where I differ in this discussion is first in an observation: SUV's (purchased in no small measure because they had AWD) and second in my contention that the cars that perform "better" are currently thought by a significant minority to be no longer 2WD cars, but AWD cars.

    You may be right, you don't "need" AWD -- but where I differ is I would want AWD if I lived in Dallas or SoCal or Florida where it rarely snows.

    The RS4, S4, S6 and S8 (and some other notable AWD German Sports Cars with well known pedigrees) are not marketed first and foremost for their Winter Prowess -- rather they are marketed for their Performance and invitation to bring on all comers.

    The RS6 (C5 version) was marketed as a statement of what was possible in terms of performance and oh by the way it also had AWD.

    BMW is, NOT YET, (here at least) marketing the Xdrive cars for their performance but for their low coefficient of friction conditions traction.

    This, I suspect, will change -- BMW will begin (they have already) marketing more and more the Xdrive as a safety feature and will evolve into marketing the Xdrive offerings as the highest performance BMWs.

    You may argue convincingly that "it ain't so" because Xdrive adds weight which is, as we all know (yea right) the enemy of performance (mileage, handling, etc etc etc.)

    This "fact" may be accurate, but I submit it will not be perceived to be "true."

    At this moment, BMW seems to be missing another sales opportunity by not offering improved anti-swaybars, spring rates and height, wheels, tires etc in the Xdrive sport packages.

    For ONCE, Audi with their somewhat appearance weighted SLine package (which, after all, does include the suspension, wheel and tire sporting bits) has leaned in a more sporting direction than BMW (in this narrow regard, only.) Yet, the 5 can be had with plus sized wheels and tires AND the sweet 255HP engine mated to a 6spd manual -- and one would assume some aftermarket tuners offer stiffer and lower springs and perhaps anti-sway bars and more sporting dampers. So the factory that gets the nod and polite golf applause for offering a sport package goes to Audi.

    But the overall inherent balance of the BMW, larger factory wheels and tires AND the manual transmission may, to a lesser extent, favor the BMW's offering save for the fact that "the 5 series are rarely sold with stick shifts."

    If you want a sporty AWD Premium car for about $57K and a V8 you can go with an SLine A6 4.2 or for the same money get a 530xi with the "in name only" sport package.

    That BMW still outsells Audi must be an indicator that either the customers don't know or care for a true sports package or that Audis is a really well kept secret (if one assumes that the customer really would go for a sport suspension were it offered -- by BMW for instance.)

    Whattya gonna do?

    Even knowing what I know and participating in this discussion with "y'all," I would TODAY opt for the 530xi with the fake sport package from BMW configured on the car with a stick shift and 18" UHP tires and wheels.

    On the other hand, if forced to take the auto, the overall fit and finish plus the aforementioned SLine offered by the Audi would tip the scale in Ingolstadt's favor (for me.)

    I'll bet BMW will add a true sport package option soon, very soon.

    Even the Cadillac STS offers it on their AWD version.

    Oh the ignominy. :surprise:
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    A few miscellaneous thoughts...

    - Of all of the RWD BMWs that I see around here (southern New Hampshire / northern Boston suburbs), the vast majority are non Sport Package All-Season shod standard suspension cars.
    - Looking at the SP equipped 3-Series and 5-Series cars that I see around here during the winter months, I have yet to see even one that didn't have winter tires either mounted on dedicated rims or OEM sized winter tires mounted on the factory rims.
    - Of all the Audi Quattros that I've inspected in parking lots and such, very very few have performance rubber mounted in the summer and winter rubber mounted in the winter, in fact, I don't think I've ever seen a winter tire equipped Quattro.
    - If I was buying an Audi A4 or A6, I'd opt for a manual transmission (if available), the Quattro system, the Sport Suspension, Performance rubber and then buy a set of winter tires.
    - If I was buying another 3-Series or another 5-Series, I'd opt for a manual transmission equipped RWD "i" model with the Sport Package and buy a set of winter tires.

    What can I divine from the above?

    - Confirmation of your statement saying, "Typically Americans keep the same set of tires on year 'round. Perhaps we're just lazy."
    - Most folks don't care about the Sport suspensions for either Audi or BMW. Could that be because of the basic goodness of the base suspensions?
    - Given my belief that a balanced RWD car (ala BMW) with winter tires is both more capable and safer than an AWD car with All-Season tires in the snow and other slippery stuff, combined with my preference for RWD means that I'll probably continue buying RWD cars, all else being equal (which it rarely is).
    - That last statement brings me to this one: Given that "all else being equal" isn't true, and given any number of other prejudices, opinions and beliefs that I have, the car that is currently at the top of my short list as a replacement for my 5-Speed 530i SP is the FWD Audi A3 2.0T 6-Speed Manual. Why? That's a very long answer and probably too off topic for this discussion. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Basically, Porsches AWD and Lambos AWD are their highest performance vehicles.

    Not quite. You are referring to the 911 Turbo which is one quick sled. But Porsche’s highest-performance cars, the GT2 and Carrera GT are RWD.

    In Porsches, AWD is there for stability, adding weight to the front to offset the severe rear-weight bias that is inherent in 911s. Providing torque to the front wheels also mitigates the characteristic oversteer of 911s and their tendency to come loose in corners. Although many enjoy the cornering stability of AWD in Porsches, the prevailing preference is still RWD.

    I have driven an S4 and love it, and I like AWD in an everyday get-from-point-A-to-B vehicle. But when driving with sass it compromises the ferral responsiveness that comes with RWD especially in Porsches. I guess it’s like cowboys wanting to ride bulls. There’s a certain skill required and sense of accomplishment when you’ve mastered it.

    BMWs already have enough understeer. I can’t see the more spirited driver wanting AWD in a BMW. However, AWD will be successful for obvious reasons. I welcome it as an option in a beast-of-burden sedan, but not in a sports car. I think anyone who wants to squeeze every ounce of sport out of his sedan will not be longing for AWD, and I don’t think the AWD Porsches and Lambos will convince them otherwise.

    Lastly, although I agree with Shipo’s assessment of winter-shod RWD cars, he has his work cut out trying to convince the hoi polloi. AWD cars have a lot going for them. In the snow belt they are the no-muss-no-fuss purchase. Conversely, I don’t think the SoCal/Fla crowds are going to be stepping on each other to get at AWD sedans any time soon.

    ;-)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    While technically, at this moment in time, there are a few ultra high performance cars that are not AWD, I suspect I should say "generally speaking" or the "spirit" of what I was saying pertaining to AWD high performance vehicles is up for little argument.

    Perhaps the absolute pinnacle is RWD at the quantities and price points such cars as a GT2 suggest.

    Although the prices of some of the lesser Porsches that are both HP and AWD are still quite high, I understand that your point is that my statement was not literally or technically correct but I remain steadfast that more and more cars that are selected as "daily" drivers even at these price points are both very high performance and AWD.

    AWD is making huge sales inroads (both in dollars and in sheer numbers, units sold, that is) and remains one of the fastest growing segments -- now that it is no longer "just trucks" that offer these systems.

    BMW of America and its customers are the beneficiaries of this trend.

    Moreover, "performance" is improved with AWD in the mind of most consumers (who rarely if ever actually take their cars to tracks or enter them in any kind of competitions, etc.)

    The popularity will only improve the breed of Sport oriented Premium / Luxury cars. We've already seen this effect in the entire segment edmunds calls LPS cars -- of course it is already making its way both downstream AND upstream.

    The addition of two more driven wheels, I suspect and predict, will become ubiquitous and it will be seen to be a convenience, luxury, performance and safety "content" item. AWD is the the "power steering" of this decade.

    Only a few will not offer this feature seems to be the way this is heading.

    The addition of AWD to BMW, Mercedes, Volvo, Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac and Chrysler (not to mention Jaguar and Mazda) is just the beginning.

    Although I wouldn't go so far in the very near future to predict the majority of BMW's 5 will be xdrive, I do think "it could happen."

    Of course, as usual, most of this is just my opinion, I could very well be wrong, just not uncertain. :shades:
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    In addition to the white stuff, I like AWD in rain, particularly in hydroplaning situations and accelerating on wet winding roads. If they market it accordingly they might pick up some warm-weather sales but I don't think they will be significant. On dry roads the only advantage I see is in exiting high-speed corners. I think there could be some benefits in straight-line acceleration, but the dynamics there are very convoluted. Actually, the dynamics are convoluted everywhere when considering there are differences in AWD systems.

    Just as a matter of discussion, comparable 911s with and without AWD are very close in straight-line acceleration, an approximate .1 sec edge going to the RWD version. Weight advantage is considered the difference.

    One thing that seems elusive is assimilating the difference in systems. I think it is very difficult to compare them. You really have to drive them in all conditions which is virtually impossible, and consider the tires to boot.
  • mikerochmikeroch Member Posts: 69
    FYI - Check out the latest issue of Bimmer, for articles on the AWD 530xi, etc....
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Well, I can tell you that having had both the "xi" (330xi) and now the "i" (545i with SP) that the 545i with snows is just about as good as the 330xi was with all-season tires. That's in real-world experience. Now, I don't know if I'm a better driver in the snow than most based on growing up in the northeast, and going to college in Vermont, but I was shocked at how good the 545i with snows handled the white stuff. I can barely get it so slip at all. I haven't had any problems in thr rain with either performance tires or snows on the 545. I used to be a Saab driver because I though FWD was much better in the snow, but then went to AWD. Wanting better performance and a bigger car I took a chance switching to RWD (I wanted to stay with BMW). I was actually really nervous that come winter I would regret the decision. Happily, I didn't at all. I wouldn't say I'm committed to RWD, but I will say that with snows and with an experienced snow driver it would be hard to say the 330xi offered even a noticeable difference in the snow.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    You covered the acceleration issue in your post, however, there is the braking issue as well. The 330xi with the All-Season rubber is most likely incapable of stopping as well as your 545i with winter rubber when in the slippery stuff.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    True, I did forget to mention that. I definitely agree though. Wow, in glancing over my previous post I'm surprised you could read it with all of the typing errors! Anyway, another thing I forgot to mention was that BMW has always been reluctant to enter the AWD market, and is going into it now somewhat kicking and screaming. I'm sure cost and mechanical complexity have a lot to do with it, but also they simply seem committed to the performance characteristics of RWD cars. This is probably why they offer more limited options like AWD without a true sports package. I think they feel that AWD with SP is a somewhat paradoxical thing to want!
  • manybmwsmanybmws Member Posts: 347
    Get the 550 and put some serious snows on it.

    I drove today in a Boston area snow storm that was not big (roughly 6+") but it started as slush. So underfoot it was very slippery. Subarus and SUVs were skidding around corners at every intersection. This year I just bought Dunlop Winter Sport M3s for my '03 530 non-SP. I have to say that they were VERY good given the circumstances. I never felt once like I was losing control. In fact at one point after coming across a cars stalled and slipping trying to go up a hill, I did a U-turn just before them without a problem.

    If you have a job that requires a lot of travel with your car then maybe the 530xi makes sense. Otherwise get the 550. If you want a little better ice/slush performance get the Blizzaks.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Someone must know, but it seems to me that Winter Tires are "mandatory" in Germany and cars have stickers on their rear bumpers indicating the "winter" speed they are rated for.

    Further the driver has a smaller version of the sticker inside the car, I presume to remind the driver, "I'm OK at 100kph."

    Now I will really test my memory: I was in northern Austria driving an Audi A4 quattro with 4 winter tires with studs -- the sticker said 80kph -- which is about 50 mph. The area was very well plowed but still had plenty of snow covering the highways and secondary roads.

    80kph seemed fine.

    Other cars had lower and higher kph stickers.

    Maybe this is Austrian, not German -- or maybe it is an agreement between Austria, Germany, Italy and Switzerland.

    Try getting most Americans to switch to winter tires -- can you say protest?

    I am not a proponent of government telling us what to do -- but this may be like airbags, seatbelts and other such things that actually do help the common good and probably would lower both insruance and medical costs.

    I use all season tires on a quattro -- but Cincinnati has so little snow and what snow we have rarely sticks around long.

    Don't go by me, then.

    And I resubmit the question: does BMW offer a sport package on any xdrive offerings other than the X3? Anywhere?
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    BMW does offer a true Sport Package on the X5s (Seats, Wheels, Steering Wheel, Suspension...) with the exception that the said upgraded wheels come shod with all season tires (instead of summer performance tires).

    You both make excellent points. I happen to agree with shipo 100% about RWDs superior attributes.

    Mark - a lot of what you say makes sense. Manufacturers have to offer AWD and it is a great money maker for them. I know someone who was on a waiting list for a new S Class Mercedes. The dealer called him up the day it was realeased and asked if he wanted it. He specified he wanted AWD (so did every other person on thew list), so they've got a few new S550s that aren't sold sitting on their lot.

    I think cost is a major factor as well. BMW charges you a $2200 premium for the X-drive on a 530xi. They charge and additional $2300 for the Sport Package on a 530i. That's almost 5 grand in options before you start adding other goodies. There might not be a market for it. People feel they MUST HAVE AWD for the few days a year it snows around here. They look at me like I have 4 heads when I tell them I put Snow tires on my car.

    AWD is good for BMWs bottom line though. The more profit they make off AWD 3s, 5s, & SUVs gives them more money to cater towards the enthusiast market with M cars, the 550i 6 speed, performance packages, and maybe bringing the 1 series to our shores :shades:

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • mikerochmikeroch Member Posts: 69
    I found this at another 5 series chat site - check it out for 2007 MY 5 series production and changes....(I guess the dealer here was telling the truth after all!!)....

    http://forums.e60.net/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=18507
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