BMW 5-Series Sedans

sambeam

[Bimmer12, got your response. Thanks]

Hi Guys:

NJ/NY area I saw some 1500 over invoice type
ED prices. DOes anyone have experience
with similar prices in San Jopse/San Francisco Bay area in Northern California?
Would you be kind to share your experience in that respect?

Thanks!!

spyderred

Like I may have mentioned earlier, I am in Southern California (BMW capital) so I have been able to research these cars now for over a year. Test drove at least 40-50 BMW cars; manuals, autos, 325's, 330's, 525's, 528's, 530's, 540's, private party and dealers.
Here is my take.
First things first. I really wanted a 5 or 6 speed manual. I have driven many auto's and they are nice but I like to have more control(fun) with my car, eventhough I am sometimes stuck in Southern California Traffic. Call me crazy. The 3 series car are really nice but they are too small for my needs. I have two children in car seats and I needed the little extra room in the back seat. Also, the 5 series just seemed a little bit more solid and luxurious than the 3 series. So my search was narrowed to the 5 series. Now, which one, 525, 528, 530, or 540? Drove all varieties; manual, auto, and step. Didn't like the auto at all in any of them. Even in the 540, just didn't seem like it had the 282 hp rating. It was powerful, but to me just didn't seem as powerful as a car with a manual transmission. So the consideration was narrowed to manual and may be Steptronic. Drove the step in 528 and 530. I wasn't impressed and, when in Step/sport mode, it seemed that there was a 2-3 second lag from the instant you shift 'till it actually engaged the next gear. The Step would be much nicer in traffic be it didn't give me the control/feel that I was looking for. Call me old fashioned (I am only 35). So my decision was narrowed again. Manual. Drove at least 5 528 5 sp, 3 525 5 sp, 3 530 5 sp, and 2 540 6sp.
The 540 6 speed is a really sweet car. If money was no object then it would be my first choice. The other thing with the 540 is that it would get me in too much trouble with our local police dept. and CHP and I really didn't want to get to know them that well. Also the additional cost of maintenance of the 540 was a drawback.
I have a really good friend that works for BMW and he told me that the BMW inline 6 is much more durable and reliable than the V8. So based on all those factors the 540 was sadly eliminated from my list

Now as for the 530 5 speed, It is probably the perfect car with appropraite power, handling, and cost. I drove, I think 3 of them, and was very impressed.
Then I drove 525 and 530 both 5 speeds back to back on a couple of separate accassions and the 530 definetly seemed a little bit faster, but not substantially. Then I was confused. Do I go for the 530 for the extra ~30 HP and ~40 Ft.Lb of torque for an extra $4,000 or is the 525 plenty enough for me. Mulled it over for a couple of months went back again then I drove the another 525 and another 530 and the difference wasnot as noticeable between the two. To me, the 530 has a bit more pull in 2nd gear compared to the 525 but
it wasn't that much of a difference. My mind was made a 525 5 speed with a sport package, xenons, DSP, leather, moonroof, and a beatiful sand interior is finally mine. I am loving life.
Sorry to ramble on,

riez

spyderred... Excellent analysis. I might disagree a bit on the 540i6 maintenance and durability issues and would've pointed out there appear to be some significant durability issues with all BMW automatic transmissions. But you are a textbook case supporting the need to do lots of research and thorough test drives, repeatedly, to find exactly what will and won't work for you. Enjoy! (Don't think anyone can go wrong with darn near any 5 Series!)

spyderred

It took a lot of work and patience but it was a lot of fun. The best way to decide on what you want and not be sorry about your decision is research, research, research. I had the luxury of time and I also ended up with a great value. This is the best part for me.

bmwluver

Dollar is down by 10% in recent months relative to the Euro used by the Germans. How will this affect BMW prices? Should I be glad I took delivery on my 530 in April? Can we all expect to pay more for parts--perish the thought our cars should need them even at current prices.

snagiel

Good question. The models' prices are set by BMW NA every year, and do not fluctuate based on currency exchanges. I'm not sure if parts' and accessories' prices are more fluid, but they've certainly appeared stable to me up until now. Over a longer term (5-10 years), though, continued currency disparities can certainly have a big effect on pricing. As the Japanese yen rose substantially in the early-mid 90's relative to the dollar, the Lexus LS400 went from a bargain $35k to a Mercedes-like $50k within several years.

riez

Since BMW AG now does its accounting in euros, and BMW NA is a subsidiary of BMW AG, all other things constant, a decline in the relative value of the dollar to the euro means BMW's profits would fall. If BMW's shareholders are willing to see profits (and thus also dividends) fall, they can sit back and do nothing, for a while. Otherwise, to offset decline profitability, BMW has to raise prices (either directly or by holding the line on prices but "decontenting" the cars so you pay same amount for the car but get "less" car), cut costs (e.g., reducing marketing expenditures, reduce racing program, hold line on salaries, etc.), reduce dividends, or some combination. One other way is to go "up market" in your product line. Build higher margin items--seems like BMW is doing that with X5, 745i, and future 6 Series. (BMW also appears to be diversifying their product line at the lower end. Will be interesting to see what sort of per unit margins they can generate here. So far Audi and MB haven't produced many profits in the small, less expensive market. Tough competition and they have very, very high labor costs.)

Sometimes companies will quietly "eat" the currency fluctuation, if they view it as short term. But if viewed as long term, they'll have to adjust. Shareholders won't accept declining profits and the market will lower share prices as it adjusts for declining profits.

Often very hard to build market share if currency is working against you.

Declining dollar could mean higher car prices, reduced features or more features (at much higher prices), higher part prices, etc.

Regardless, BMW AG always seriously studies currency trends.

snagiel

Sorry, let me clarify: I meant to say that model prices do not fluctuate within the model year; they may certainly fluctuate from one year to the next, but prices haven't ever (at least as far as I'm aware) been suddenly recalculated midway through a model year because of currency revaluations.

riez

snagiel... Manufacturers raise and lower prices at will anytime they want to. Was thinking that just earlier this year, BMW raised average wholesale prices by about $200. Don't forget that BMW's "price"--the one they receive and what is reflected on their bottom line--is what the dealer pays, not what you pay. So BMW only needs to raise wholesale prices to dealer. That either cuts into dealer's margin or is done by also increasing MSRP. Or both can be done.

If dollar falls significantly during a short period and the fall is expected to last, BMW can and will raise prices quickly to attempt to offset. Same happens during inflationary periods. Prices have to be raised just to maintain their former relative value.

snagiel

Hypothetically, sure. I'm just saying it's never happened, as far as I'm aware. As for the price increases, I was referring to MSRP costs, not invoice costs (which can be more elastic since it's not as visible to a consumer).

kirkd1

I am happy with my purchase. It just freaks me out when I look at the payments and then the car. It has its little flaws, I’m sure you see them. For instance the steering wheel should be as nice as an up market Momo without any sharp edges, but if you feel around that nasty plastic horn button surround piece you feel sharp unmatched edges. This is what’s in my hands as I drive. The turn signal lever with its pushbutton for the computer readout has sharp edges. To me these are the finishing details that should be perfect in a $40k+ car. Damn.

cmr530i

Thankfully, I can't relate to your "sharp edges" comments. I've had my 530 one year now and have no such issues. (I have the M sport steering wheel.) Contact your dealer and see what can be done.

add123

Does anyone have any sources for pics for the '04 5 series other than the ones here on Edmunds?

Tks

nyccarguy

And also don't forget that BMW prides itself on being one of the most profitable car companies (2nd to Porsche) in making a bit more than $3000 profit per vehicle.

snagiel

I guess $3k ain't bad, but I think I've read Ford makes close to $10k on every Expedition/Excursion (since they're based on much-cheaper pickup trucks). No wonder Detroit loves SUV's (and keeps their lower-end sedans at a barely competitive level).

nyccarguy

BMW's $3000 Profit Per Vehicle Margin is across their entire model line. Yes Ford & GM make close to $10,000 profit on their monstrous SUVs which are based on less expensive pickups, but what if anything do they make on other cars like the Taurus or the Cavalier? GM & FORD make all their profit from the sheer volume of cars they sell. Their average profit per vehicle is somwhere between $150 & $300 I remember reading.

rwolp

Don't forget that huge multinational corporations hedge their risk to currency fluctuations. This is a cost of doing business across the world. To not do so is risking profitability from currency swings and that is not a risk that corporate officers are typically willing to make.

riez

Isn't the USA BMW AG's second largest single market for sales? I forget what percentage of revenue and unit sales USA market comprises, but it is significant. That is why a big dollar devaluation, which lasts for some time, will impact their bottom line. There is only so much hedging that can be done and so much that other markets, where currency fluctuations are working in the opposite direction, can do to offset.

Will be interesting to see where the dollar ends up averaging versus the euro over the rest of CY 2002 and CY 2003. Seem like most analysts are predicting euro rise against dollar, one that should last. But who knows, USA's economy reportedly grew 6.1 percent so far in 2002. Now we just need corporate profits to rise. Fed holding constant on interest rates.

bmwluver

Riez, your analysis is tres profound. Our brokers should only be as good as you are and maybe we'd not have naked backs now (as in "lost our shirts in the market").
Since driving my 530 in Europe, I've experienced how BIG this model is for the average street and parking lot. This is why many Europeans are not so keen on the 500 and 700 series cars--along with the astronomical price ($4.25 per gallon in Germany) of benzine. This keeps demand for these cars less in Europe which probably means BMW will continue to sell um to us for more reasonable prices despite the US dollars delcline.

kirkd1

Well, I've only had mine for a few days and the steering wheel wasn't made well in the car I purchased. I'm glad for you that your wheel is comfortable. Is it without the plastic horn button surround? When I lay my hands on the seams I feel the plastic's edge. It doesn't fit, it overlaps the leather. It should actually be smaller and it should have a tight fit.

Okay, I just took a file to the sharp edges on the turn signal stalk's button that accesses the computer.;o)

dg95

I'm about 3 months away from finishing my lease on a '99 SAAB 9-5, and I think I have finally made up my mind about my next vehicle. I have researched everything in the entry-level luxury class: 3-series, A4, TL-S, etc; and, in my humble opinion, if I'm going to spend in the low $30k range for a car (I'm purchasing this time around), I feel a CPO 528i represents a great value. It has a great blend of sport and luxury and is such a solid vehicle. But after visiting the dealer and looking into what some private sellers have to offer, I am in need of some recommendations and I have some questions about BMW's CPO program.

Riez: To your comment about BMW auto's and their durability - I have located a CPO '99 528i 5spd w/SP & PP, for $31,500. It has about 41.5k on the odo. I haven't driven the car yet, but this seems to me like to best deal I have found out there within the CPO program. I'm wondering if the manual is the way to go for durability's sake.
I have also seen a few auto's with mid 40k mileage for about $32,500. Could anyone advise if these seem like pretty good deals? Also, any recommendations on going manual or auto?
And lastly, is the CPO program worth it? The more I look at the plan, what is covered and what isn't, and how this particular dealer handles inspection, parts replacement, and warranty issues, I am left a little skeptical. I have found some other deals out there from private owners that could save me $2-3,000 dollars.

Any insight or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

riez

dg95...

Historically, BMW's (really Getrag and others) manual transmissions are pretty much bullet-proof, assuming you don't abuse and service as required.

CPO is worth it. Great piece of mind. Limits your possible out-of-pocket expenses during the life of the contract. A couple repairs and you'll have eaten up any "savings" on a private party sale.

Also, are you buying or financing? BMW FS often has great buying financing and leasing financing deals on CPO cars. I got 3.9 percent for 48 months. Think that is still on. (Though I also got first month's payment made by BMW FS. Think that ended 12/1/01.)

Check out BMW NA's great CPO locator. I drove 590 miles to get the exact 540i6 I wanted. A '98 with 53,000 miles. Web site easy to navigate; easy to check huge areas of USA for CPO inventories.

528i 5-speed manual with Sport Pkg the way to go. Great car! You'd love it!!! Try to negotiate hard on price. Everything is negotiable within limits.

dg95

Thank you for the insight. I got pre-approved today for the 3.9%. I'll be purchasing the car this time around. I am planning on test driving the 528i 5spd this weekend. I'll report on it afterwards. I think from what I've sensed and heard from some of the sales people, that this is a great time to do some hard negotiation. But as you said, within reason.

patelli

How do I program the car to lock doors automatically when I begin to drive? Most cars have a sequence of window/door button presses to activate the feature. Not sure about my 5 as the owners manual says to contact the BMW dealer. Is the dealer the only one who can do this?

cmr530i

What do you mean by the "plastic horn button surround?" When I use the horn I simply apply pressure to the black area on either side of the BMW logo. Is that what you do? I did run my hand over the top edge of this piece today and while I can feel the ridge, it is not sharp. I keep my hands in the 10 and 2 o'clock position when I drive for better control(plus, the M steering wheel has grips there which I like to use). Glad you were able to solve the turn signal stalk yourself. Too bad you had to deal with this in the first place.

cmr530i

Before I took delivery, my dealer had sent me a questionnaire regarding the settings I wanted on my car. One of them was the auto lock. At the time it seemed that only the dealer could set this and other features.

530bmw

to program the door lock feature, you have to take your car to the dealer. Next time when you take your car in for service just ask them to program it for you.

530bmw

I checked out Xpel information and they claimed that you can wash and wax over the bra. I would think that if you wash and wax the bra it will make the paint looks dull. What is your opinion and experience on this? Would you recommend that the hood, fender , grill and headlamps be protected? I have a feeling that you are going to say all of the above, but if I do not want to do all areas at once,which area should be done first? The reason for this is I am not sure if I will be able to do it, I hate to order it and not knowing what to do. It costs a lot and I prefer to spend my money wisely. Your input will be appreciated.

snagiel

When I wash, polish, and wax the car, I don't skip over the Xpel-ed areas. It has no discernable effect on its appearance that I can tell. The only thing to remember is to use a Q-tip along the edge of the film and remove excess wax when applying to the hood/fenders.

As for the priority of kits, probably the most important (and easiest to install) is the headlight/foglight kit, since I hear about those cracking all the time. Then again, you get this kit for free if you order all the others. After the headlights, I'd probably say the hood (I can't remember if that includes the fender pieces or if they're separate), since it's the most visible.

I understand your concern about price, but I figure it's an investment in the car's appearance. Repairing paint chips (let alone smashed headlight assemblies) will, in time, easily pay for the kits. And the lack of any paint chips (or at least a minimal number of them) will probably help resale value as well.

tlmmhowell

I owned 3 E class MB's before current 99 540iTa. The BMW is much more fun to drive and doesn't seem to attract as much attention from jerks as the MB does. The MB had a MUCH better dealer and MUCH better service (Omaha, NE) and I felt the MB's were a bit more solid and more reliable. If doing it again, I would have a hard time deciding, but would probable go with a used MB or even, dare I say it here, Lexus. I'm getting tired of dealing with little nit pick stuff and a deplorable dealer, who if BMWNA had any balls, would defrock the dealer and find someone decent!

530bmw

hssahu

Hi all,
I am nearing delivery of my 530i (will get it in couple of weeks). Wanted to know about the extended warranty and extended maintenance programmes. Should I go for these? And typically how much do they cost? Will appreciate your thoughts.

thanks in advance.

ewoq

I'm always amazed at the number of postings about arrogant BMW dealers and the poor service and reception offered by BMW service departments. My personal experience with my 4 BMW's and 3 Mercedes by local dealerships over the past 25 years have always been first rate. They are thoughtful, considerate, accommodating and the vehicles were serviced/repaired by the expected time. I always felt they were up front with me in all respects. Service loaners were always provided so if an unexpected delay occurred, there was no concern about the car. The cars were returned cleaned and washed. The courteous service personnel always followed up a few days later for feedback.

FYI, perhaps it's because in the Vancouver, B.C. region, there are 4 independent BMW dealers but the 4 MB dealerships are all owned by Mercedes Canada. The Lexus dealers certainly put both BMW/Mercedes on notice for service during the past decade.

Just rambling...

musher2

As an avowed 'clutch' guy, I've always been curious about what a Steptronic transmission was like to drive, but I never took the time to test drive one ('twas never really an option I would consider for my own car). However, the loaner I got today whilst my car was in for Insp I had it, so I finally had a chance to try it out.

Well, it was interesting. While it tried it's best to behave like a manual, there are limitations, most notably a not-so-subtle delay between the pull of the knob and the response. I understand Step has a feature whereby it 'learns' the drivers tendencies. Perhaps if I could have put on more miles, it would have adjusted to me a bit, but I suspect the delay is inherent in the design.

And I couldn't help but notice that mileage was poor, although being in an unfamiliar car, there may have been factors other than the Step affecting that. But I put ~50 miles on the car and used up about a quarter tank. Yikes! I checked the OBC and it showed the average MPG at 18. Perhaps that's mostly due to a succession of part-time drivers stomping on the accelerator in a borrowed car, but it's fully six MPG less than my typical average in a manual 323i.

While I recognize that Step may be a great compromise for people that must have an auto trans for whatever reason, it's certainly no substitute for the 'directly connected' feeling one gets from a clutch.

riez

Yesterday BMW FS finally sent me my BMW Ultimate Visa Signature Card. Waives annual fee for first 6 months and gives me 5,000 Rewards Points free. Looks pretty nifty in the wallet. Used it a couple times last night. The store clerks seem to think it looks pretty cool. I know it is shallow, but I can't help it. However, I do plan to build up points with the credit card and then also use BMW CCA rebate program. Should save me a pretty penny in a year or two.

dl7265

If you choose the rewards card , you have to pay a annual fee correct ?

DL

kirkd1

I'm speaking of the molded plastic piece that's in my face when I look at the steering wheel. I bump the horn button in the middle of it just like you. I am irritated that it's not as clean as a three spoke Momo. We paid dearly for a "M" sport wheel. I think the wheel should be wrapped predominantly in LEATHER. Not PLASTIC with leather. In a car of this quality and cost I shouldn't be resting my hands on a plastic steering wheel. Look, I realize the air bag is in the wheel and that presents a design problem. But this is BMW "M" design we're talking about. I test drove earlier 5er's ('98-'00). I think that earlier sport wheels where less junky, weren't they? I could be wrong about the last point, but I'm absolutely right about our cars.

riez

dl7265... Yes, there is a $50 annual fee for the basic rewards package. The basic rewards package is an upgrade to the basic no annual fee card which doesn't have any rewards package. Unfortunately, the annual fee is $100 for the Ultimate Card. But supposedly the Ultimate Card is by special invitation only (yeah, right) and is the only one to give you 5,000 Reward Points up front (when it takes spending $1 for every reward point). As I said, the Ultimate Offer I received from BMW FS waived the annual fee for the first six months and gave me the 5,000 points up front. Now I'll need to see how fast I can earn points. I can always cancel the card after using my points! (Over the past 10 years I've redeemed about $3,000 worth of GM rebate dollars and another $2,000 worth of Ford rebate dollars and about $500 of Citibank Driver's Edge dollars, which replaced the Ford card program. Fortunately these three cards had no annual fee, so they were esp. great deals.)

nyca

Yes, this card could be a better deal. What are they offering people who have actually spent big $$$s on these cars over and above what anyone could sign up for via the web site? People who actually own BMWs should get the rewards package for no annual fee.

hssahu

Has anyone used these? Extended maintenance for 4 yrs/50K miles would be $799 - that's what the dealer tells me. What about extended warranty? Usually upto what miles does it come? Can I take any of these later? (I am getting my 530i in about a week's time.)

Would appreciate some advice on these topics.

musher2

Normally, I'm not a big believer in extended warranties, at least not for run-of-the-mill appliances like microwaves and VCRs. However, I bought the ext warr for my 323i two years ago and I'm glad I did. It just paid for new brake pads (at just 27K miles...hmmm, I must be braking harder than I thought), which the service guy said was a $500 - 600 job. And, having just sold this car to a private party, I was able to recover half the $800 cost of the warranty by tacking an additional $400 onto the sale price (it's transferrable). The buyer was happy to pay the extra $400 for two years of full coverage on a pre-owned car.

So even though I owned the car for just two years, the ext warranty paid for itself and then some.

I, too, will be picking up a 530i in a week or so, and I plan on including the extended warranty when the deal is closed (you can do it post-sale, but I don't want to take the chance of missing the deadline).

riez

hssahu & musher2... Are you talking BMW CPO or some 3rd party?

cotmc

I called to get more info on the basic rewards package. I was told I would need a minimum of 35,000 rewards points to receive any savings on BMW financing ($350 savings), or 30,000 rewards points to receive savings toward a new BMW lease ($300 savings). Other options for redeeming points included an extra free 1000 miles on a current lease, or "paying" for wear-and-tear at the end of a lease. Since I am not currently leasing, and because I am not a particularly big spender, I declined on this $50/yr rewards package.

musher2

My apologies for imprecise language. What I purchased was an extended Maintenance Program. Lessee here, if I've got this straight, all new BMWs have Full Maintenance for 36 months or 36K miles, which is separate from the (limited) New Vehicle Warranty that runs 48 months or 50K miles. The "BMW Maintenance Program Agreement" that covers the extension I bought describes two types of extended coverage -- "Scheduled Maintenance", which provides "factory recommended maintenance as listed in the owner's BMW Service Warranty Booklet" for 48 months/50K miles, or "Full Maintenance", which includes coverage for "brake linings (pads) and rotors, external drive belts, battery, clutch and wiper blades" (effectively extending the standard 36/36 Full Maint coverage to 48/50).

Interestingly, what I thought was an $800 cost was actually $399, now that I've pulled the paperwork and checked. I don't recall if I negotiated the price down from something higher to $399, but the fact that the cost was $399 versus an even number like 400 suggests it was the going rate at the time. Or perhaps it was one of those "special deals" that the sales guy could offer only to a "really special customer" like me! ;-)

So, now that my memory's refreshed regarding the fact that my car, like all new BMWs, has standard Full Maintenance coverage for 36/36, it appears that the brake work I had done yesterday with an odometer reading of 27K miles should have been covered without the extended MP. I think I'll call the service guy that was so effusive about my extended coverage and point out that ALL new cars that are sub-36/36 should be covered for that work, and see what he says.

riez

cotmc... Thanks for the info. You know more about it than I do. But I'm going to try it for a while. I pretty much haven't used cash to buy anything in years. If I can buy it using a credit card I do. Gasoline, groceries, you name it. And both my credit cards are automobile rebate cards (I use each for half the month). The realized rebates have added up into the thousands of dollars. And I pay the bills in full each month so there is no finance charge.

Too bad BMW's program isn't nearly as good as GM's current, Ford's former, or even Ford's successor (Citibank Driver's Edge).

merckx

Could you give the site(or link) for the Citibank card. I built up $2,500 on a GM card;I bought my wife a Catera,though,as that was the only GM car I had an interest in.

cotmc

Be sure to use your card for all your gasoline purchases. I believe they pay double points on gasoline purchases. (Gee, I just might have signed up for this rebate program if we owned a Lincoln Blackwood or a Ford Excursion!)

cmr530i

Just curious, how do others on this board feel about the fit, finish and materials used on their "M" sport steering wheel? (Personally, I am very pleased.) Anyone else feel that it should be completely wrapped in leather? Has it ever been?

john01

I am happy with ours. To my knowledge, it has never been completely covered in leather. Copy of German market accessory catalog for E39 shows various combinations of wood and plastics, but no leather.

riez

merckx... Pulled out my platinum Citi Driver's Edge card. There is a 1-800-967-8500 number as well as www.citibankcards.com web address. The nice thing about these rebate dollars is that they can be used on any marque and can be used on used cars. I got back $400 from Driver's Edge when I bought my CPO BMW. But you do earn points a lot slower than with GM card. (Since I'm a charter member, think I earn points at twice rate new members can today.)