Lexus LS 400/LS 430

mbman1

Having been born and raised in America I, as well as most Americans, have been taught that turning the other cheak is the appropriate thing to do. We avoid confrontations, try to help and be thoughtful to each other, and treat each other with the respect a human deserves.

Estimates are that more people may have lost their lives than in both Pearl Harbor and the Vietnam War. This cannot and will not go unanswered. I expect, even demand, swift, horrific consequences to not only those responsible but the countries which are harboring them. If need be, I am in favor of a Declaration of War from Congress. The United States was attacked on her own soil, all of our military sources should be used.

It is every Americans duty to make sure that the victims of this do not die in vain.

My heart goes out to all of the victims and there families. Stay strong and God Bless you and God Bless America.

wwest

I have flown quite a lot in past years, both nationally and internationally.

I was surprised, stunned, really, to learn the other day that it was deemed okay, by our own government, for passengers to board with knives if the "blade" was less than four inches long.

What this means to you and I, with regard to what has just happened, that regardless of how lax security was or wasn't these guys could have still boarded those planes.

What idiot in our government made this assinine decision and why?

It has bothered me for many years as I have watched stewardesses come and go in and out of the cockpit with a simple knock on the door for entry.

It looks to me as if we had simply abided by some more realistic rules regarding carry-on weapons and abided by the standing rules regarding inflight procedures then none of this would have happened.

I'm not a republican by any means by didn't they run a campaign based on enforcing our current laws more stringently and strictly rather than passing new ones.

What is the need for passing new rules, procedures, and even laws governing passenger flights if in a few years we become lax about enforcing them?

mbman1

I agree with wwest 100%.

1. Why is anyone allowed access to the cabin?
2. Why aren't the doors made of built proof steal and glass?
3. Why isn't their an armed guard on every
flight? He/she doesn't have to be in full
dress, they could look just like any other
passanger, but shouldn't they be there?
4. Where is the security?
5. Shouldn't the airport have realized that
these flights were off course?
6. The plane that ran into the Pentagon circled
the capitol first and "had its pick of
targets", isn't there protected air space?
Shouldn't the military have been alerted?
7. Can a plane simply fly into the White House
uncontested?

I would like answers to all these questions. How could we allow something like this to happen?

ljflx

Great points. Do you realize NYC cabbies and late night gas station attendents have more protection than our pilots? I agree that the pilots should have bullet-proof protection, but they must upon occasion get out of the cockpit simply to utilize a lavatory and they of course must get fed on the longer fights. But for the moment the only way to prevent a plane from becoming a guided missile again is to safeguard our pilots with security guards who meet the tightest security tests that exist. A longer term solution to isolate the pilots completely requires a lot of changes to the cockpit layout but is worth the effort as we would all feel much safer knowing the cockpit was untouchable by terrorists. But realize this would have to be agreed upon by many governments, particularly those nearest our borders where a jets fuel supply would be heaviest, as was the case on Tuesday. Canadian and Mexican cities are just a hop, skip and jump to the major US cities.

I also was shocked to realize that small knives were not thought of as weapons. Ban them all including the famed Swiss army knife.

pat

I want to thank you all for conducting a very civilized and polite exchange of ideas here. Certainly, given how you folks discuss everything else amongst yourselves, I never would have expected any less of you.

I've seen emotions in posts run a huge gamut in the last few days throughout the Sedans Board (no doubt this has occurred in Town Hall as a whole), and this is by far the most cool-headed and well-reasoned discussion of the horrendous events and very troublesome surrounding issues that I have seen.

I very much appreciate that and appreciate all of your recent posts.

Please feel free to carry this discussion forward so long as we don't get into any political flame wars. I don't expect that to happen, but in response to ljflx who thanked me for allowing this to carry on, I just want to say either that or racist/ethnic accusations would be about the only problems for which I might have to intercede.

Thanks to everyone and excuse my interruption - I thought it might be a good idea to explain that you have Town Hall's support in conversing as respectfully as you have under these circumstances.

And of course, if anyone is reading this conversation and wants to ask or say anything about the vehicles that are the subject of the discussion, please jump right in - this conversation is not exclusive of our purpose, after all, and these good folks involved in this heavy exchange of ideas will certainly be responsive, just as they always are.

Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board

ljflx

Well said. Undoubtedly we will get back to cars at some point as life must go on. Right now the enorminity of the tragedy is still sinking in. It's incredible to drive the New Jersey Turnpike as I'm about to do and no longer see the twin towers of the WTC. I've also found out that some folks in my town are missing including two wonderful fathers of children in my son's grade school. Luckily my next door neighbor who works accross the street got out safely.

mbman1

I don't think this would be as hard as many think. First, start with the new planes being designed. Have a lavatory within the protective doors, a dual door setup would take care of the food situation.

A few seats may have to be eliminated at the front of the plane, no big deal. Also, passengers should board from the middle or rear of the plane, thus allowing the front door to be used exclusively by the pilots.

bitkahuna

> 1. Why is anyone allowed access to the cabin?
> 2. Why aren't the doors made of built proof steal and glass?

Agreed - the door should be secure, and the pilots should have a security camera to see the area outside the door. However, any of these measures can be circumvented. Also, consider this - even if the door were impenetrable, the pilots had their own bathroom, and they never came out during flight, what would they do if they found out the crew and passengers were being killed or threatened with death in flight? Could they be calm enough to just land without going back to help out? Perhaps a tear gas type system could be installed by planes to be unleashed by the pilot in the event of a hijacking.

> 3. Why isn't their an armed guard on every
flight? He/she doesn't have to be in full
dress, they could look just like any other
passanger, but shouldn't they be there?

This would do no good at all. The guard could be overcome, bribed, or a hijacker could simply get a job as the guard!

> 4. Where is the security?

Of course there are many measures already. They can always be made more secure, but eventually there's a trade-off in cost, convenience, time, and security.

5. Shouldn't the airport have realized that
these flights were off course?

Apparently the hijackers turned off the transponders, so the planes would have just disappeared from ATC screens. Granted this must have raised the red flag, but if the ground didn't know where the plane was going, what could they do?

> 6. The plane that ran into the Pentagon circled
the capitol first and "had its pick of
targets", isn't there protected air space?
Shouldn't the military have been alerted?

It takes time to scramble jets. Plus, no doubt the government was already completely off guard by the WTC attacks. The reality is that airspace is very difficult to protect. Plus, who knows if there's a policy on shooting down a commercial airliner. Tough call.

> 7. Can a plane simply fly into the White House
uncontested?

No, there's anti-aircraft guns all over Washington first of all. But it's just a hard problem. Didn't a small plane crash into the White House a few years back? Anyway, the sky is a big place and planes fly very fast.

> I would like answers to all these questions. How could we allow something like this to happen?

It's the price we pay for living in a relatively free society. There's a very difficult trade-off between security and freedom. If you were totally secure, you wouldn't be free to do very much.

And today there are no security measures capable of stopping suicidal fanatics.

ljflx

I'd gladly pay extra for the tickets and as far as I'm concerned Bush can ask for a $600 check back from the taxpayers to finance it.

Security, like everything else in this world will never be perfect and there will always be someone who rebels against the system and is crazy enough to kill with no respect for the families or the anguish it brings them afterwards. To see it so organized though is hard to fathom. But then we all saw Arab children on television dancing in the streets and rejoicing over this incident as if it was a sports event. That was also very hard to fathom and it only means that the hatred that spawned this incredible terrorism has a lot of staying power unless it is dealt with quickly. It has to be put out swiftly and then we need instant peace and rebuilding of relationships. In the end that's what happened after WW II and as horrendous as this act was that was probably the world at its absolute worst. But in the end the enemies became our friends and today we debate which one makes the better car.

I'm afraid the only answer to this terror is for the US to go after the governments that harbor the terrorists. It is the leaders of those governments who will cave because in the end they will lose their power if they don't. Witness Quadaffi.

wwest

Four for four.

How can that happen?

Guns are a no-no, so don't even try.

Cockpit door doesn't have to be bullet-proof just locked from the inside, just as it already is, and "surveyed" with a simple inexpensive camera looking forward. a simple light switch "test"(IR "light", which the camera will "see" but humans can't) so the camera picture can't be circumvented.

Only in an emergency can one flight officer leave the flight deck if "coast is clear" but the second one should NEVER, and s/he should immediately deviate to the nearest airport, not allowing anyone (back) into the cockpit under any circumstances.

pcbrs

The door to the cockpit is commonly known as "breakaway doors" in the airline industry. They were specifically designed to be able to be easily destroyed in the event of a crash or decompression of the airplane. If it were heavily armored as you suggest, it would serve as a powerful projectile, either into the pilot cabin or the passengers' cabin during a decompression event. You could imagine the consequences. Also in the event of a crash landing, the pilots would be likely trapped by the armoured door. I believe the best venue of prevention would be to increase security prior to aircraft boarding... and make sure knives and guns are not taken on board. Or perhaps you are right about it being worth the new risks. Just wanted to offer an explanation why some great ideas are not so simple in application.

lenscap

You commented on air marshalls/armed guards aboard flights as follows:

"This would do no good at all. The guard could be overcome, bribed, or a hijacker could simply get a job as the guard!"

While all good points, it should be noted that El Al has successfully used air marshalls for decades and, combined with their intense security, have not seen a hijacker in decades as well. While the US airlines could probably not logistically do what El Al does in this regard due to so many more flights, El Al's policies should be used as a benchamrk.

lateralg

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2812283,00.html

nealm1

I do not believe that there is any off-the-shelf technology that would actually land a plane. (The article tied to the link above suggests that we could equip planes to land automatically if the pilot doesn't take affirmative steps). Landing a commerical airliner may not be the most complex activity man can accomplish, but it ain't that easy either. (Landing was one skill the terrorists never had to learn). But we probably could have a GPS-linked device that would automatically fly the plane to one of a handful of designated airports and circle until fuel was low and then, if necessary, ditch in a nearby vacant field or body of water. It would be triggered if the pilot failed to send a code every 1/2 hour or so to the tower or if the transponder went out (and BTW, can anyone explain to me why the transponder is switchable? Its like putting a device the car to allow the driver to disable the steering wheel while the car is in operation). But I like the fact that people are thinking creatively. This shows, I think, that we will eventually come up with fairly robust measures to counter most kinds of terrorism if we spend the treasure to do so.

nealm1

I just looked at the S class board, and was SHOCKED to see that (a) there was exactly ONE post about the cataclysmic events of this week, followed by a series of messages about the S63 AMG. Now I am NOT claiming that Lexus owners are "superior" human beings, or that the people on the MB board are evil. I am saying, however, that it is disappointing that after the events of this week folks can so easily return to their own indulgences. I have had a very hard time working and staying dry-eyed this week; I just can't imagine debating the merits of some as-yet-unseen car. Simply amazing.

bitkahuna

Clearly El Al has an impressive security record. Americans would probably not tolerate the inconvenience however.

As far as marshalls, apparently there are about 40,000 flights a day in the U.S. - that's a lot of marshalls (one marshal could do more than one flight a day though).

Maybe we can use the soon to be laid off curb side baggage handlers!

mbman1

I do believe guards on every plane is viable, as for the hijackers becoming guards this can be avoided with proper background checks. How many U.S. air force pilots have turned on the U.S.? Proper background checks are obviously available. As for the doors to the pilots being break away, so what? A material can't break away during an emergency and be bullit proof at the same time? In regards to the hijackers turning off the transponders, this is the only way to track aircraft? So a country can set up in international waters, turn off their transponders, and have a free shot at the U.S.? Obviously we have other ways to detect aircraft. Someone in WDC fell asleep or has become to lax.

All in all I agree with the posts, security is a tough call, many factors go into it and there are no easy answers.

flint350

Just FYI - the transponders being turned off is of little real impact. It does not prevent radar from tracking the aircraft at all. The transponder makes it easier to separate one aircraft from another on the air traffic controllers' radar screens by using a discrete number for each aircraft. It also provides more precise info on the a/c speed and altitude - but its loss is not insurmountable or vital.

Autopilots have had the capability to land comm. airliners for years - the problem would be a terrorist disconnecting or destroying the equipment if they got access to it before it could be setup.

pat

Now, now, just take a deep breath... :-)

Just for reference, let me tell you what I am seeing in reading all the posts in each discussion every day here on the Sedans board. I think we have about six discussions (there may be one or two more, but I can think of six right off the top of my head) that are very actively discussing the horrendous events of this week and the multitudes of ramifications. The rest have gone back to discussing cars - and after all, that is the purpose of Town Hall.

I don't think we should be critical of folks participating in Town Hall for its defined purpose. And it could well be that some folks are using Town Hall to avoid the pain this week has caused for so many of us. That's not to say that some folks possibly may not be that tuned in to the week's events, but you just never know. And since Town Hall really isn't a political message board, let's don't read too much into folks not using it as such, okay?

A personal belief of mine is that one can never really criticize another for how that person must deal with his or her own grief and sadness. We all have our own methods of coping, and my belief is that none of us necessarily understand another's method, we only understand our own.

I hope this makes sense.

Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board

pat

Some of you may be interested in this column from today's Chicago Sun-Times. I found it quite powerful: The spirit of America: bowed, but unbroken.

bitkahuna

Good post. Just one comment...

"my belief is that none of us necessarily understand another's method, we only understand our own."

And most of us don't understand our own, but we have the potential to.

pat

perhaps "accept" would have been a better word than "understand".

ljflx

How does everyone think Bush is doing? Seemed like he had a very positive effect in NYC today. The other day I didn't think he showed enough emotion. There have been several stories on Mayor Giuliani emerging as a great leader in the NY papers including the Times who rarely says anything good about him. I also think the Governor gets high grades and the fire chief has held up remarkably and also has shown great leadership. It was very moving to see Bush with his arm on his shoulder.

Don't know if anyone saw the Star Ledger (New Jersey) or the Miami Herald on Wednesday but Leonard Pitts Jr.(Miami Herald writer) wrote a very moving column that I also heard read over an Internet radio station. I'll try to find a link but in the meantime if anyone else can find it please post it.

The other night I said I hoped Bush was was following his father's lead. Seems like he is as he's quickly trying to build a coalition - like Bush Sr did in the Gulf war - rather than just a US based attack. Still early to call but I think we will get a ground assault on Afghanistan pretty soon.

rennybosch

And while we make our aircraft more secure, let us not ignore the clean-cut young man with a briefcase who is entering our city's water treatment plant, intending to dump a can of botulism into the water, or the one with the briefcase containing anthrax, or the gentleman carrying a suitcase containing a nuclear bomb.

Let us be vigilant against all possible threats.

"Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom."

This is not going to be easy.

wwest

Junior was in NYC to learn how a REAL leader acts in a life threatening crisis.

pat

THAT's the kind of post that can get very tricky in here, you know?

Let's just stick to our feelings about what has happened and what we'd like to see done to address prevention in the future. We need to avoid very specific criticisms that invite very specific rebuttals over clearly political - rather than logistical - issues.

I am all in favor of allowing a wide latitude here because of how unique, intense and painful the circumstances are, but we must not lose sight of the fact that Town Hall is not a political arena. Town Hall is a forum for discussing buying, owning and selling vehicles. Period. Again, I want all of us to be able to talk amongst our friends about the horrendous events and continuing ramifications of this awful past week, but we do need to be careful how far we try to go with the political issues here in Town Hall.

Thanks - I really appreciate your cooperation in keeping on the soft edge, rather than the hard edge of some of the intense political feelings that I am sure we are all having.

There are some political arguments that we just cannot get into here.

I appreciate everyone's understanding.

Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board

ljflx

the link is www.herald.com

simply scroll down to Leonard Pitts name and click on it. Pat host if I didn't post the link correctly perhaps you can.

pat

Leonard Pitts in the Miami Herald, published 9/12/01 - We'll go forward from this moment

ljflx

That is the one.

wwest

They lost, sacrificed, 18 lives...

At the most they spent, what? - 20 to 30 Million dollars?

Junior says we are at war...

A war that we have already lost !!

Our government at this very moment is planning the curtailment of many, many, of the freedoms we have taken for granted. Our government is right now planning to spend Billions upon Billions of dollars in order to take how many lives? Maybe 500, guilty, not counting the innocent killed with "friendly fire".

What will be the final result? Our economy in shambles? Many of our freedoms severely curtailed?

Fundamentalist religious men rallying to the cry to take more american lives in retribution?

Why must it be?

Why don't we fix what we know is broken and then hire someone(s)who can "think" like "they" do. Can YOU go THERE? Think about using, sacrificing, humans lives to further your cause?

Of course you can't, its very likely NONE of US can.

Didn't we hire many of the early internet hackers to tell us, help us, bullet-proof the internet?

Rather than starting a physical war, assault, how do we best interfere with their "world" such that they start crying "uncle".

We find a way to start, right now, teaching their wives, daughters, and young children about what FREEDOM really means.

Fundamentalist religions cannot survive if the populace is fully educated, taught about the freedoms truly democratic societies enjoy, not brain-washed with thoughts of killing others to achieve a better life in the next world.

That's just one of the ways THIS war can be won, and on the cheap!

THINK DIFFERENT !!!!

bonger

I have a LS430 with the Ultra Lux package. The black finish on the welting on the outbound side of the drivers seat is wearing off leaving it a beige suede. The car has 5900 miles on it. Has anyone else had this problem? Over the phone my dealer says Luxus calls this normal wear and won't do anything about it. Also the drivers side headlamp washer won't retract all the way (will get this repaired next oil change). I have had the groan repaired but the retraction of the steering wheel is still noisy. I am fast becoming disillusioned with Lexus quality.

wwest

I'm beginning to be glad Lexus didn't/doesn't build a black cherry/ivory/maple LS430.

Buy some black shoe dye.

bitkahuna

So your idea of a response is trying to educate, what, half the world's population? Sure that'll be inexpensive (not).

And you're talking about us hiring terrorists so we 'think like them'?

People who directly (not indirectly as a result of attacks on military targets for example) kill tons of innocent people for some 'cause' are insane and evil.

If our government hires insane evil people, how can the result be predictable?

And please drop the 'Junior' epithet, while you may not like our President and probably don't think he was elected fairly, he is still the President. If your man Gore had won the election, he would still be my President.

flint350

Must say I agree, generally, with bitkahuna. Maybe it's time we got back to the cars and let this terrorist/politics issue move on to a more appropriate forum elsewhere. wwest seems to want to change what was a natural outpouring of controlled emotion, opinion and discussion of the events into his personal need to attack the President and other name calling.

No one cares whether you're a republican or not, or have some dislike for Pres. Bush, etc. etc. - but since you apparently can't keep those type of inappropriate attacks to yourself, it is my suggestion we all move on by returning to the topic of this forum before the vitriol gets out of hand and the hosts are forced to act on this.

It's sad, IMO, that this degenerated into political name-calling by some, but like those brave folks in NYC and here in Washington D.C., we should probably move forward now and put the bickering behind us. Just my two cents and God bless America.

wwest

No, what I was trying to say was because of our background, freedom, religions, educations, not even to mention our lifestyle, etc, we will NEVER be able to think the way they do.

How do we figure out a way to defend ourselves if we can't think in their "venue"?

Educate half the world's population, no.

No, not insane and evil, their life here on earth is undoubtedly hard, maybe as hard today as was any american's 200 years ago, and their religion has taught them that the way to a better life is to kill those who do not share their religious beliefs.

Where is the greatest "hotbed" of fundamentalist religion? What is the female population of Afghanistan?

How can we begin to educate them as to our way of life and the personal freedoms it would offer to these women?

How do you hire these terrorists?

Punish them by putting them in a garden of eden, beautiful virgins at their beck and call, until they tell us what we want/need to know, and then promise them we will execute them so they die for their religion and go on to a much better life?

I will salute and I will follow the PRESIDENT of the United States, George W Bush. But I will speak of him, individually, in any manner I chose, that is one of my basic freedoms as an american.

wwest

Boy, have I screwed up, royally.

Everyone seems to be focussing on my use of "Junior" when referring to Bush. If I could I would be very pleased to go back and change that to "Our President says we are at war..."

No, I think all I'm trying to say, simply, is maybe an "eye for an eye" tactic will not work in this case.

pat

I have to pipe up here and say that I agree with that thought. Maybe it is exactly time to do that, for now anyway.

Today has clearly been a day where America as a country has tried to return to "normal" - not that "normal" will ever be normal again, it seems to me. And certainly we all wait to see what happens next, and none of us expect this to be "over" any time soon.

But still, the stock market reopened (and predictably took a terrible dive - but the story will be told over the next few weeks, not today alone), the silly court shows and soap operas are back on TV instead of the talking heads with their incessant background images of the planes crashing into the WTC, the commercials are back (there's a whole lot of financial loss to go around a wide swath of our society, but the networks have certainly suffered in that arena), the baseball games are resuming tonight - with very poignant patriotic tributes as I have just seen prior to the Braves vs. Phillies - Town Hall as a whole and the Sedans board in particular seem to have gotten back to the normal level of posting, and most folks are again talking about cars.

I have no intention of stifling any reasonable, polite and civil conversation about the events of this past week nor the events that surely are to come.

But we do all need to remember that we are in a car forum, not a political one, and please, please let's leave the clearly controversial statements at the door.

Anyone want to talk about the steering wheel groan, or maybe the shortcomings of the GPS software? Or how about how luxuriously quiet the LS 430 is, and what exactly are these back seat luxuries I read about anyway?

;->

Thanks folks.

Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board

bitkahuna

"this degenerated into political name-calling by some" - well one, to be specific.

But anyway, that's the end of it.

Back to cars.

Anyone know if there is ANY difference in the 2002 LS (vs 2001)?

ljflx

The ultimate victory for the terrorists and loss for us and the rest of the world would be for us to stoop to their level. Given the level of weapons we have we don't need to hire thugs to fight our battles - we are big boys and can defend ourselves thank-you. The ultimate victory for us and the world would be for all this to backfire on the terrorists. There are some seeds of that happening. Have you noticed Cuba, Iran, Russia, Libya and others throwing sympathetic words our way. Notice all the flags showing tremendous unity in the country. People on the roads are even driving less aggessively. If the Taliban handed over bin Laden and his top people, a real longshot, but if they ever did we can even get a peaceful outcome from this with some new, albeit strange bedfellows becoming friends and quarantines on terrorist networks similar to those on nuclear weapons. Then all our deaths, terrible as they were, would lead to a more rational world and our military might is used correctly as a strongarm rather than in retaliatatory strikes. That would be vengence enough for me. I do, unfortunately now know personally of some people who died in the tragedy. Those people are/were wonderful human beings who would want a peaceful outcome if it were possible so long as justice was served and a military one only if innocents were not killed as a result. Let's pray the Taliban has a lot more common sense than bin Laden. And I wish the NY Times would stop putting Mr. in front of his name!

OK Pat - said my piece - now I also would like to get back to cars.

wwest

Again, what I was trying to say, and obviously haven't done it very well, it that we need someone, or a group of someones, who can THINK like these terrorist do.

Since we can't think at their level, how do we prepare our security "structures" so they are no longer so easily overcome?

And if we go after these people with our BIG GUNS, then I suspect that will only stiffen the resolve of the militant fundamentalist religious groups to bring down the "big devil", the US.

It seems to me right now that our administration wants to use an atomic bomb to swat a gnat.

They, the terrorists, were willing to wait us out, waiting until our security systems become so lax that they could successfully take over 4 commercial airplanes within an hour.

What would happen if we were to pull in our "horns", "repair" our broken security systems, use all of this military money to strenthen our economy, and begin an earnest effort to educate the world, especially Afghanistan, about our beliefs and who we really are.

Now that, to me, would represent a real loss to these terrorists and a clear victory for us.

robh3

To understand clearly that your proposed method of ridding the world of these brainwashed fundamentalists is off the mark, one need only point to some of the "cults" that have been successful right here in the United States, such as the "Moonies", the David Karesh followers in Waco, and the folks in the San Diego mansion who poisoned themselves a couple of years ago to catch a spaceship. Many, if not most, of these people were well educated Americans who indeed were living (and were brought up in) the American lifestyle before they became brainwashed in the name of a "higher power".

Heck, the very highjackers who committed this act have lived right here IN the USA and among us Americans for the better part of the last two years. They have interacted with us and conducted business with us. Don't you think that actually living here and seeing that we are not evil people would have softened them up and changed their minds??!! it DIDN'T. If we couldn't do it right here in our own country, how are we going to do it in theirs?

In the case of terrorists and other foriegn influences that would rather see America fall, history has shown, unfortunately, that a "soft" approach, such as economic sanctions and "peace" are by themselves not effective. Even those actions take the lives of innocent civilians eventually because the screwed up leaders of those countries take for themselves what remains of the basic necessities (food, shelter, etc.) that the economic sanctions create a shortage of, and they let "their" people rot in the street.

History has also shown that countries that have been our enemies and ultimately lost to the strength of the American military (with our allies) have virtually always ended up better off to one degree or many by subsequently becoming our allies and trade partners. Most of you on this topic are driving cars built by one such country. Japan doesn't have to spend billions on national defense like America does because through an agreement made at the end of WWII we will protect them with ours. Perhaps the fact that they can focus so much of their national engineering brain power on electronics and automobile technology instead of war ships and plans and weapons is a reason they are so proficient in building those products. Germany falls into that same category.

No matter how you slice it, these terrorists are going to cause the suffering and pain of innocents on BOTH sides. It cannot be tolerated and they have shown that they are NOT a people to be reasoned with. There is no "right" answer here, however there is a necessary answer.

Sometimes a can or two of Raid is not enough, you have to call in the exterminator.

lachua

I stubbled here and decided to add a little to this unsocilated debate on American Politics (sorry host).

Seems all this talk of war seems to be getting a little out of hand. Has anybody seen the evidence on he who is supposed to be gulity? Nope! Osman Bin Laden is a man hiding in the Afgan dessart sleeping in a tent. One must wonder if he really has all this power and influence. Why is the government so quick to jump on this fellow? Perhaps because the United States government is a little pissed that he betrayed them. Yup, that right guys, the 200 million dollars he has is none other than profit from arms trade between U.S and the Afgan fighter to topple the past Afgan regime. But guess what? Bin Laden did a 360 and now calls for a jihad on the US. Yes, one reaps what ones sows. You try and topple a gov to install one that favours you but instead they turn on you. And thier middle man is thier chief culprit now. The same thing goes for Iran and Iraq. You do not see on the news the starving children in Iraq. Why are they starving? Cuz of U.S government policy. Thats right, these policys hurt many, many countries in the world and in retilation they cause terror on US soil in order for them to experience what they have suffered under the U.S policys. So if you still wanna point a finger at someone take a closer look at Uncle Sam, cuz he sure an't that pretty right now. But of course they won't tell you that in the media (more evidence of a press that is NOT free) Don't take my word for it, do a little research on your own, you might find yourself living in a country that has commited some of the worst acts of terror.

bitkahuna

ahh... the law of unintended consequences at work. All this talk now about our need to be more connected with scoundrels around the world is, as you say, what got us in trouble in the first place.

Any place (web), or book you can recommend for info on these issues with our foreign policy?

I know stratfor.org has a lot but I find their commentary too paranoid.

wwest

A geopolitics teacher made an interesting comment on TV last night. Her point was that the terrorist organizations who did this should be treated as criminals and punished accordingly for murdering these people. Her point was that if we call it an act of war then in the minds of her students, and many others in the world, these were soldiers, not unlike those aboard the Enola Gay who killed so many innocents 56 years ago.

Regarding the comments from our Canadian friend. Remember that we also aided Castro in his bid to overthrow the unfriendly to the US Cuban government. He is right, undoubtedly there are those still in our government who have been "stung" by Bin Laden and would like to have their revenge.

On another point. If our military (CIA, etc,)can make this a WAR then their budgets will no doubt increase substantially.

wwest

This past weekend we made the drive up to Bellingham again. We were going to a new address in south Bellingham this time so I used the RX300 Nav system from the very start, woodinville, WA.

The system worked flawlessly until we exited the freeway about two miles from our final destination. At that point the voice came on and "bailed", saying now use direction and distance as guidance.

So it failed us once again.

The strange part is that later in the day we were in north Bellingham and needed to get to an address east of lake whatcom (house hunting).

When I punched in the address and "started" the route guidance I immediately got an announcement that said (paraphrasing) there are gaps in the system coverage on this route and you will be asked to use directional and distance from time to time.

So the ability to detect these gaps clearly exists so why did it "detect" the system shortcoming in one case but not the other.

wwest

Has anyone out there ever placed a "custom" order successfully, or does anyone know of a dealer who will place such an order?

I would really like to have a new LS430, Black Cherry, Ivory, Maple, with air suspension, but its not configurable as a standard.

bitkahuna

In the first case your destination was in a place which the system didn't have details for.

In the second case a part of the journey went through an area the system didn't have details for.

Net: Your live/drive in areas where the DVD data isn't very complete, so the system is less useful and capable. I wouldn't be happy with it in your situation either. But in metro areas that are covered well by the DVD data (or hard disk, as in my case on my 2000 GS400) the system works very well. But when I was on Hutchinson Island in Florida for example, its value was less, as it didn't know anything about local streets in nearby Stuart or Port St. Lucie, for example.

rennybosch

I see you fly the Canadian flag, but I am guessing you were educated in the U.S. Am I right?

3pointstar

I agree with your views.

Manuel Noriega
Sadam Hussein
Taliban/Muhahadeen

They were all on our payrolls. Playing with thugs is a double edged sword.

Peace.

lenscap

The only change to the 2002 is that the 16" wheel design is different. It looks similar to the 2001 but it is different. The 17" wheel is the same.