Volvo S60

peglegger · October 2003

Did you work for one of them, davant? I see them on the news daily, pretty much....just curious.

If you worked for any of them, marketing can't be blamed for their collapses....actually, maybe marketing did too good a job

phils60 · October 2003

Peglegger - I enjoyed your reply regarding horsepower not correlating to safety.

You convinced me, but your insurance agent might have some different data concerning horsepower and it's influence on driving habits, speed, and ultimately accidents and injuries. Naturally, Volvo owners are always an exception to the statistics...

By the way, be sure to buckle up in that golf cart (grin)

qbrozen · October 2003

Depends on model, apparently. Carsdirect has the 2.4 for almost $4K off sticker, the 2.5T for about $5K off, and the T5 for about $4500 off. But that's all before options. For instance, a loaded up T5 is more like $6K off.

phils60 · October 2003

Davant, I purchased a 2004 2.5T 9/17 in Atlanta, GA. Premium and Sport package. MSRP 33,385. My total purchase price was 29,185. I traded a 2000 Jeep Limited for 19,500 that had a trade in value between 17000 and 18000. So toss all the numbers and it looks like 5000-6000 off MSRP is about what most folks are speaking of.

avolvofan · October 2003

Yesterday (Friday, October 10th), there was an accident on US101 near Fort Hunter Liggett in central California. The car had ended up flipped over and the roof was basically crushed down to the level of the rest of the body. Based on the lack of urgency of the emergency services personnel and that both North-bound lanes were at a complete stop, I would imagine the accident was fatal in outcome. If the accident was fatal, my condolences to the survivors. I am not an expert at identification of vehicles when they have flipped on their roof, but it looked like... a Honda....

The reason for this post is that where safety is concerned, Volvo has a reputation for safety. Patents for 3-point safety harnesses, Side Impact Protection System (SIPS) and Whiplash Injury Protection System (WIPS) immediately come to mind. Taking an idividual crash test result as an overall indicator of relative crash-safety is a bad mistake. As volvomax posted, Volvo is one of only two manufacturers that have an active program to research improvements in overall crash safety of their cars. I have observed an increasing focus on Volvo's part on strengthening the roof area on 850s through to the current S60 - A, B, C, and D pillars have become larger with each successive model. With the S60, the use of boron steel was added to further increase the roof strength. None of these steps will be recognized in the crash tests of either NHTSA or IIHS, because they don't flip the car on its roof. However, real-life accidents seem to increasingly end up with the roof being involved.

Net, net, many Volvo owners buy a Volvo for its reputation as a car for which the manufacturer has focused on safety. Volvo has a challenge to add higher output engines, higher capacity brakes, handling improvements, etc., while still maintaining the foundation of safety. So far, I think that Volvo has met that challenge. I have been completely satisfied with my S60 AWD. For me, the S60 AWD has mechanical reliability, performance (accelerating, braking, emergency handling, etc.) as well as overall safety.

davant · October 2003

Zorro - I'm doing Volvo a big favor, I'm buying one. Thanks for your views, my message was aimed to evoke opinions, guess I succeeded. Smug-pug,I was just having fun.

Pegleg - Bigger than any of those companies ever was and still is, thanks for playing & posting.

Phils - Insurance rates have me puzzled. An '01 S80 T6 is more to insure than an '04 S60 2.5T even though (at least crash rating wise) the S80 is a notch above. I agree with your assessment of safety, looks like rates have more to do with cost to repair than accident risk.
Especially want to thank you for your price info. Dealers here seem reluctant to bargain beyond 'house' prices regardless of incentives.

A-V-fan - Could it have been an Acura since a crunched 'A' could look like an 'H'? Are you suggesting manufacturers do a flip roof skid test? I think we're doing that now in the middle-east. Tire makers might lobby against it as for some strange reason they feel their product is more road capable than any roof. Can't help but wonder if Honda will strengthen their roof now or sleep soundly on their H-pillars.

phils60 · October 2003

Davant - The dealer here in Chattanooga was reluctant to deal on the 2.5t. They were pushing the the 03 lineup with a straight 6000 off the 2.4 with no trade.

I heard that Atlanta was a distribution point for Volvo(?). I drove down there and found a huge inventory of 2.5t. They hit the price before I finished a cup of coffee. Good hunting.

volvomax · October 2003

Haven't heard of any changes, however the incentive program can vary from region to region.

gbrozen, there are several cars that I would rather be in than a Honda in an accident, Mercedes, BMW and Volvo come to mind.
Seen too many crushed Hondas, sorry.

derzhimorda · October 2003

phils60 can you be more specific about the deal you got? I mean what car you got and how much of MSRP or invoice it was. If that's not too much to ask.

ruski · October 2003

are there any plans to offer S60R with automatic tranny?

qbrozen · October 2003

they already do.

qbrozen · October 2003

don't know what you have to be sorry about. I'd rather be in a Kenworth than any of those you mentioned if I were in an accident. It doesn't mean the rest are deathtraps.

volvomax · October 2003

long as we're silly, I'd rather be in an M1. The ultimate SUV!

phils60 · October 2003

derzhimorda, all the details are in message 1326. Let me know if you're looking for additional info.

phils60 · October 2003

Well it looks like my Chattanooga dealer caught up with the rest of the pack. Window paint on every 04 S60 on the lot, 5000 off.

davant · October 2003

Wow, that's a pretty good discount. We're considering a 2.5T, White or Gold, Prem, Sport, Tour, Clim is OK too. MSRP is $34,870. Sounds like I should have no trouble getting it for 30K +T&T including having them locate and pick it up, any thoughts?

It's either that or I lease a Kenworth. Volvo makes semi's too, what a tough decision.

qbrozen · October 2003

That car you listed above is $29,200 through carsdirect. So you should have no problem beating $30K.

On the other hand, go for the Kenworth! Or the Volvo rig. They do make really NICE ones. Some are even more luxurious than the cars.

ruski · October 2003

wow, thanks. I didn't realize.

same horsepower with automatic tranny?

peglegger · October 2003

I talked to TireRack today and they have finally measured an S60R for wheel fitment and have approved the following:

-Moda R4 (not R3, as stated above) for $209 each
-SSR GT1 for $339 each
-Mille Miglia Action for $199 each
-At Italia Inox for $199 in Bright Silver; $259 in stainless steel

(All of the above are 17" rims.)

The ASA KA3s are NOT approved by TireRack.

You should still call TireRack on your own to confirm. I'm just happy that there are options other than the OEM Pegasus rims.

qbrozen · October 2003

I would say to start here and read that thread from there on. Lots of interesting stuff. And, of course, all of that applies to both the s60r and v70r.

rqc · October 2003

The S60R with automatic (GearTronic) has the same horsepower but reduced torque and lots of fiddling with the programming to keep the engine from tearing up the automatic tranny. Although the automatic is no slouch, its significantly slower than the manual.

peglegger · October 2003

On paper, the auto (Geartronic) is much slower 0-60 than the 6-speed. But, there has been some testing lately that shows the two are much closer than the Volvo numbers state. The manual is having a hard time making 5.4 seconds 0-60 than originally stated and the more you read, the more it looks like a 6.0-6.5 car. The automatice is about a 7.0 car.

With some brake torque, most average drivers could be close to the 7.0 number (auto). The 6.0 - 6.5 number (manual) for the average driver will be much harder to hit. It involves proper timing, quite a bit of practice, clutch drop at about 4500 rpm.

I would argue that two average drivers would be very close to a tie in auto v. manual.

Key word is AVERAGE. If you are a gear head, then the manual is probably your choice no matter what. If not, don't write off the automatic, without more of your own research/test runs.

camydog · October 2003

Hi all,

What's the going rate in the states for a manual R with premium, touring, and climate packages?

Been considering an S60R but need to know the going rate there compared to military sales in europe.

What's the governor set at on the R?

jmichaelp · October 2003

Looks like a fair offer to me, I'm just not in the market to spend $40k & was looking for a T-5. Thought I'd post this so others can see what deals are out there.

Sapphire with Light Taupe leather, touring premium & climate packages; 18" Pegasus wheels; 6-spd. The MSRP is $42,270 and the invoice is $39,461.00. Offered it for $40,461.00

ejgabe · October 2003

I own a 2003 S60 2.4T and have noticed that I get better gas mileage when I use the high grade gas vs. low-grade. What grade of gas is recommended for the 2.4T?

ptrekker · October 2003

In a Toyota Corolla you will get better mileage if you use premium. Just like you will get drunker quicker if you drink 8 oz Stoli straight rather than 8 oz of wine.

ejgabe · October 2003

Thanks for that advise - very insightful. Forget the gas mileage. Does anyone have advise on if there is any advantage to using the premium gas in a S60 2.4T? Or am I just wasting money putting premium in this car?

redfive2112 · October 2003

I don't remember where, but I'm pretty sure that near the gas cap or in the owners manual it says "Premium Recommended" or "Premium Only". Our previous car, an Acura, had the same recommendation. The general concensus from these boards and other sources is that many newer cars do run better on Premium if they state to use that grade.

Personally, since we plan on owning this car for the long term, it doesn't make sense to quibble over an extra 3 bucks per tank. A leaser might think otherwise. One more reason to never buy used...

-Scott

volvomax · October 2003

2.4T, and all volvos recommend premium unleaded
min 91 octane.
Its in the warranty book.

phils60 · October 2003

OK, so I've got a month and 1600 miles on it... here's my two cents.
CONS-
1. Steering does not center back well after making a turn at low speed.
2. Sun roof has a fair amount noise when closed but curtain is open.
3. Engine starts growling close to 4k rpm and above.
4. Typical 5 cylinder vibes at idle.
5. lacks interior nooks for cell phone etc.
6. A pain to dry after washing... so many body seams retain water. TETHYS wheels take forever to wipe down.
7. I'm surprised the wheels don't get out of balance with the amount of brake dust... what is up with that?
8. Don't like the headlights on all the time. If you choose just the running lights they will stay on after you turn off the engine and leave the car. Seems very odd.
9. The ride is a bit rough at low speeds if roads are not perfectly smooth.
10. Hesitation when accelerating from stop.
11. Buying premium gas sucks!
12. Cannot read the digital dash well. Not well lit or angled for brightness.
PROS-
1. Excellent engine power from 2k-3.5k rpm
2. Runs smooth as silk 65-80+ mph. Very quiet except for sun roof as mentioned above.
3. Transmission shifts perfectly, smooth and quiet. Geartronic is fun and the shifter is perfectly placed.
4. Sport seats are comfortable and keep you in place on curved roads.
6. Radio sound is pretty good, but takes a bit to understand controls. Hat shelf speakers are great.
7. Brakes work well and have a good pedal feel.
8. Handling is great. Very little body lean.
9. I'm 6' tall and there's plenty of head and leg room, but don't expect to ride anyone larger than a midget in the back seat.
10. Avg fuel mileage is about 23-25. I don't expect to see the claimed 30mpg unless coasting down hill.

dbugbee · October 2003

I'm considering buying an S60R but am a bit disappointed that Volvo does not offer the choice of All Season tires, much like is offered with the BMW 3 series and the Audi A4.
I live in the Boston area, where we can get a considerable amount of snow. I've always driven FWD vehicles with All Season tires and have never had any problems. I also like the idea of not having to change tires twice a year, and thus would prefer the All Season tires over the High Performance tires.
Instead of buying a second set of rims and snow tires for the S60R, I was considering just buying a good set of All Season tires and putting them on the original rims. The question then is what to do with the original tires. Sell them? Put them back on during one or two Summers, knowing that since they only last about 20k miles, they'll probably have worn out by then, and then I can just stick with the All Season tires from then on.
Any thoughts on this idea?

volvomax · October 2003

You bought the wrong S60.
All season tires will compromise the R's performance.
Like the M3 and S4 Audi the R needs its sticky high performance tires to be effective.
All season tires have less grip than the P Zeros on the R. If driven aggressively the R on all seasons will spend most of its time w/ the DSTC system going crazy.
Picture a track star running in dress shoes.
Also, by their nature sticky, high performance tires don't live long. They give up longevity, and the harder rubber compounds that requires for handling and grip.
Best advice, get a set of snow tires.

rollie · October 2003

I respectfully disagree. Your statement was accurate up until a year ago or so. There are now all season tires SUPERIOR to most speed rated summer stock. It's shocking to many including me.

After having P-Zeros, XGT Z4 Pilots, and Dunlops I've stumbled across the BEST performance tire I've ever had and it happens to be an all season tire in the Micheline Pilot Sport A/S. It's simply grippier and the fact that it has long tread life is a bonus. Pilot Sport A/S tires start at Z speed ratings and GO UP from there. Michelin calls them their most advanced speed rated tire ever and my experience with them and many other Volvo owners on Volvo boards echos this sentiment. I never thought I would see the day where I could buy Y-rated all season tires with a 400 treadware rating.

Check around and you'll find MANY happy Pilot Sport A/S owners running these tires on high-pressure turbo cars. They give better launches, are stickier in the corners, and have good grip in wet stuff. I couldn't be happier!

Unless you plan to spend your time on a glass smooth road going in left circles all day these are the tires for you.

Thanks.

-rollie
rdollie@att.net

rollie · October 2003

Volvomax, I respectfully disagree. We now have all season tires that outperform most summer stock.

After years of using P-Zeros, Pilot XGT Z4s, and Dunlop Sports I've stumbled across the best tires I've ever had in Michelin Pilot Sport A/S tires. They simply have more grip, launch better, and have nearly twice the tread life. The minimum speed rating is Z and they go up from there. Michelin claims they are their most advanced speed rated tire and my experience and that of MANY happy Volvo owners echoed on Volvo forums seems to support the claim.

Who would have ever seen the day when all seasons would run in W and Y speed ratings with a 400 treadwear rating? I couldn't be happier!

Thanks.

-rollie
rdollie@att.net

volvomax · October 2003

The Pilot A/S is a nice tire no doubt.
For the average driver they will work well.
However, for snow they won't.
Also, in the ultimate grip dept they won't come close to what the P Zero Rosso or The new Pilot P2 will do.
A very high performance car is designed for two things, speed and handling. For this you need the best, stickiest tire possible. Yes, you could get by with less, but why buy a performance car then?
Whats the point???

explorerx4 · October 2003

re: your comments on the water after washing the car, don't have the same car, too bad for me. i usually dry it, then drive it a mile or so and dry off the additional water that was pushed out onto the body/wheels. i really like a clean car and this is a good(easy) way to get rid of the excess water.

rollie · October 2003

Hi volvomax. I think you missed my point - Michelin Pilot A/S tires are listed in the Ultra High Performance category as is (and fit the definition, based on minimum speed rating and profile rating, for Max Performance rating.) I haven't tried every tire out there but you'll be VERY hard pressed to find a stickier tire.

Thanks.

-rollie
rdollie@att.net

p.s. - Don't take my word for it. Check the posts on some of the non-Edmunds forums and you will find the same claims from many performance enthusiasts.

peglegger · October 2003

I finally found a set of rims that work for the S60R. I had them installed at Discount Tire with Vredestein snow tires today.

I got Enkei CDR9 rims for about $140 each, including mounting/balancing. You will need a wheel installation kit (make sure that DT orders that, too....it's $40). The stock lug bolts will not fit the Enkei rims.

The rims look great, IMO, and the tires feel pretty decent. Not as good as the P-Zeros, but still pretty decent.

If you have questions, call Mike Mockbee (952.898.2399), Manager at Discount Tire in Burnsville, MN.

jtb1973 · October 2003

I just purchased a 2003 s60 2.4t. I went with with volvo because of the front wheel drive rather than a rwd bmw. I get some pretty nasty winters and have never driven rwd before. So far I love the car and couldn't be more pleased, but I am a little worried after reading some of the reviews on this car. If anyone has had this car for a while could you please give me some feedback.

davant · November 2003

Appreciate your pro/con list awhile back. I think we're going with an S-80 rather than a 2.5T S-60 as the con list I put together thus far is shorter and the pro is bigger, just like the payments.

niv · November 2003

Iam planning to buy S60 by Thanksgiving, I found in today's news paper, 5000 Off of MSRP for this car. Is this good deal in bayarea or N. California.
I didn't find the catagory "Prices Paid" for Volvo, so posting it here. -Thanks.

-Niv

wantapassatnow · November 2003

I am looking at a 2004 S60 2.5T FWD, no extras (no sunroof, no leather, nada ... I don't want any of it). MSRP + dest. charge is about $30.2k, invoice is $28.5k. I didn't think I could lease this for anywhere near $300 a month, but I found a deal for $275 +tax for 51 months, $1995 driveoff. I don't plan to buy it at the end of the lease.

My gut tells me it's a good deal, and if it is I need to snap it up ASAP. But I wanted to check with the pros on this board first. Thanks!

P.S. Don't mind my username. It was created *before* I test drove the Passat! lol.

niv · November 2003

Iam not sure about lease! but carsdirect sells this car 4000 below MSRP, you can better bargain with this lowered price.
-Niv

jam1000 · November 2003

5k off msrp or 3k off invoice (they work out to about the same thing) seem to be the prices offered by most dealers in my area (Baltimore-Washington), though I don't sense there's too much dealing after that. Posts on this board from other geographic areas seem pretty consistent with this pricing.

I'm sure the pricing resulted from the 3k factory to dealer incentive, which expired Oct. 31. I don't know if it's been renewed. If you saw the ad in today's paper, I'd bet it has been renewed.

phils60 · November 2003

I purchased a 2004 2.5t with Premium and Sport package for 29,185. If you back out these packages ,2595 and 795, you should be able to get it for less than 26,000.

Davanat - Let us know which one you pick.

wantapassatnow · November 2003

Thanks for your help. I didn't go for the deal. The car didn't drive as well as I'd hoped (it was kinda loud and not too smooth), but I could have lived with that if the saleswoman wasn't so horrible. We walked out and then spent 3 hours at Saab negotiating a 9-3 Linear. I almost leased it, but had major second thoughts at the last minute (it wasn't the color I wanted - and if I'm spending that much money, it had better be the color I want!)

Now I'm gonna check out the Mitsu Galant, apparently redesigned for 2004. I have a Galant now and love it. Thought I'd want a European car, but I guess I shouldn't mess with a good thing. Thanks again!

dbugbee · November 2003

I'm looking for a sport sedan with a manual transmission, AWD, and a price tag under $40k. I've narrowed it down to the S60R and the 325 xi.

I got a quote of $39,356 for a 300 HP S60R with the Premium, Touring, and Climate Packages. I also got a quote of $37,601 for a 184 HP 325 xi with all the options needed to make it comparable to the S60R, e.g., Premium and Sport Packages, Alarm, Homelink, etc.

So, any thoughts as to which is the better deal?

Thanks.

volvomax · November 2003

Call me biased, but 300 hp beats 184 hp.
Let's face it, if it wasn't for the spinning prop on the hood the xi would be anywhere near $37000.

avolvofan · November 2003

For that matter, a straight S60 AWD beats the 325xi....

amazon · November 2003

Here's a link in Swedish. It shows a 500 HP version presented at The SEMA show.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/bil/story/0,2789,387937,00.html

Some highlights:

470 ft. lbs.
500 HP
187 MPH
Pirelli P Zero- 235/35 19

Cool!!!

Volvo S60

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