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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,972
    that's my point. the other brands that have been the subject of derision over the years for their recalls are just the same. the actual affected vehicles are very few.
    the numbers of them recalled can be large due to the number sold.
    looking at the number of deaths, there are a lots more Fords out there than Toyota's, so of course the raw number of deaths are going to be higher.
    the Ford/Firestone recall and how it was handled, was the catalyst for the response to these multi brand recalls that have happened since then.
    Toy/Lex is just another brand having to march to that same drummer now.
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Posts: 44
    >
    Gagrice, congrats on your 401k. If you have a lot of stock, might be a good time to sell some and lighten up and diversify more. Take it from an "old timer," diversification is much safer. Ford has wonderful products now, but has a huge, huge debt facing it in the future. Also, the auto union hates to see them making too much money and may go after them. Look for trouble there in the future. Some smart people have said the only reason Ford didn't go bankrupt when GM did is because they had larger lines of credit, but they still gotta pay it back. Index funds are the way to go. For more info, read "A Random Walk Down Wall Street."
    JMHO, Denny
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166
    I appreciate the advice. Ford is less than 10% of my IRA. My largest holding is FLPSX which has 10 year 10% average. I have considered dumping Ford as it seems greedy to hang on to it. Move more toward bond funds the closer I get to being forced to take some out.

    I don't plan to buy any TM. How many more recalls will surface now that toyota is being watched closely?
  • fezofezo Posts: 9,442
    Interesting Toyota article.

    I've been mostly not bothering taking sides in here because it's gotten like the Hyundai in the luxury market thread - hot opinions but no changing minds.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,528
    > don't plan to buy any TM. How many more recalls will surface now that toyota is being watched closely?

    It's stuff like this that has been surfacing in the toyota discussions elsewhere on Edmunds that should create angst in anyone investing in toyota with the ADRs or buying the vehicle:

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0c6927/5175#MSG5175

    "Took my 2007 Camry SE (17,600 miles) to Toyota dealer service today.
    When going down a steep hill at freeway speeds and applying brakes, steering wheel shakes and car starts shuddering. Serviceman say probably rotors.
    I say "already?" Calls later and tells me a new, improved brake pad has been developed which he recommends replacing. I asked when "new, improved" pad was available? Answer: JUNE 2009. Why am I only hearing about it now that my warranty expired 4 months ago? It was on a technical bulletin but not a safety
    issue so they don't have to inform customers. Oh well, they don't tell us when it's a safety issue until xxxxxpeople die, right? $58. for pads on front; $175 labor;
    $58 pads on back $175 labor. This is my 6th and last Toyota.
    Please don't tell me to go to another dealer; 60 miles down steep hills.
    Just wanted to post this for others and the guy who had his rotors repaired 9 times. BEWARE.
    Leaving here now to go buy a new car. Any suggestions????? "

    This is occurring in the toyota discussions more and more along with the Honda discussions on Odyssey trans problems (surprise?) and in VCM discussions.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,528
    Fezo,

    The source of the article is
    93 And Counting
    Michael Fumento, 07.30.10, 07:40 AM EDT
    Forbes Asia Magazine dated August 09, 2010 \

    Hmmmm. An Asian-oriented magazine. I wonder what side he will take? Hmmmm.

    Also, it's funny to have a media magazine criticizing the media for not fact-checking? Where were they on "fact checking" during the last prez campaign!?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166
    That article kind of pinpoints the fact that two sides are being taken by the media. Those that want to sell more papers are negative about Toyota. Those that want to sell Toyota advertising are biased in favor of Toyota. I think the findings by the Canadian NHTSA, is more telling than the article leaked to the WSJ and on to hundreds of other media sources.
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,946
    hot opinions but no changing minds

    Haaa, you think that happens anywhere on the forums? ;)

    This was a good pair of stories:

    Were we all wrong about Toyota? (smdp.com)

    That was followed by the same columist writing this blog five days later:

    WALL STREET JOURNAL REPORTER MISLEADS READERS, NPR AND US!

    Moderator
    Minivan fan. Feel free to message or email me - stever@edmunds.com.

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,528
    >Those that want to sell Toyota advertising are biased in favor of Toyota.

    That was going to be my next post! :)
  • fezofezo Posts: 9,442
    hot opinions but no changing minds

    Haaa, you think that happens anywhere on the forums?


    No.. Couldn't be. :blush:

    I just thing some topics seem to have it in spades. This is one of them. The luxury Hyundai thread is another classic.

    I agree on how the media will slant things depending on which side their bread is buttered.
  • sandman_6472sandman_6472 Coral Springs, FLPosts: 2,812
    Could you please e-mail me as I have a couple of questions about Fidelity.

    The Sandman :sick: :shades:

    2015 Audi A3 (wife)/2015 Golf SE (me)/2009 Nissan Versa SL Hatch (daughter #1)/2008 Hyundai Accent GLS (daughter #2)

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166
    I tried emailing via Carspace and could not find you.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,528
    He's one of the undercover folks with an underscore... ;)

    http://www.carspace.com/sandman_6472
  • luckysevenluckyseven Posts: 134
    It's funny to see that NHTSA can't find a single valid incident so far to be at Toyota's fault.

    Release of Toyota Documents Blocked, Ex-Official Says

    Since March, the agency has examined 40 Toyota vehicles where unintended acceleration was cited as the cause of an accident, Mr. Person said. NHTSA determined 23 of the vehicles had accelerated suddenly, Mr. Person said.

    In all 23, he added, the vehicles' electronic data recorders or black boxes showed the car's throttle was wide open and the brake was not depressed at the moment of impact, suggesting the drivers mistakenly stepped on the gas pedal instead of the brake, Mr. Person said.

    "The agency has for too long ignored what I believe is the root cause of these unintended acceleration cases," he said. "It's driver error. It's pedal misapplication and that's what this data shows."

    Mr. Person said he believes Transportation Department officials are "sitting on" this data because it could revive criticism that NHTSA is too close to the auto maker and has not looked hard enough for electrical flaws in Toyota vehicles.

    "It has become very political. There is a lot of anger towards Toyota," Mr. Person said. Transportation officials "are hoping against hope that they find something that points back to a flaw in Toyota vehicles."
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    There are at least 4 high profile SUA, UA, incidents, long term incidents, that we are aware of. Those 4 cannot be explained away by the floor mat issue nor the brake/gas pedal confusion. Until NHTSA finds a cause for those it is probably needless to release the report.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166
    This piece from WSJ is to try and get back some of their credibility. It sounds like this retired NHTSA leaked them the info. And now WSJ needs to cover their behinds. So how much did Mr Person get for the erroneous information? He cannot be stupid enough to leak it for free.

    A Transportation Department spokeswoman, Olivia Alair, said NHTSA is still reviewing data from the Toyota vehicles the agency is examining. "Its review is not yet complete. The investigation remains ongoing," she said.

    A Toyota spokesman declined to comment. A NHTSA spokeswoman did not respond to phone calls and an email seeking comment.

    At the time of his retirement, Mr. Person, 67 years old, was chief of NHTSA's Recall Management Division, which is part of the agency's Office of Defects Investigation. He said he was briefed on the agency's probe into the causes of accidents in which drivers said Toyota vehicles suddenly accelerated on their own, and said he offered his input on the matter to investigators.

    Ms. Alair said Mr. Person "was not involved in any aspect of the ongoing investigation into unintended acceleration."

    Mr. Person said he retired in good standing with the agency. Ms. Alair said she could not comment on personnel matters.


    Maybe Person was forced into retirement for all the previous screw ups with letting Toyota off the hook on recalls. That was his department. I wonder if his Civil Service retirement will be as much as he gets from Toyota for past favors.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,528
    >It's funny to see that NHTSA can't find a single valid incident so far to be at Toyota's fault.

    The statements that they can't find anything recorded in their sorry excuse of an event recorder doesn't mean anything. The last 3 crashes of my Pentium 4 desktop showed no records in the computer's own memory as to the actual cause. It did tell me that it had crashed, however, which is what the toyota and NHSTA folks are saying.

    The fact that the computer doesn't show the brakes were applied doesn't surprise me a bit. Early on that was a complaint: applying the brakes had no effect because the car was hell bent on accelerating. Why should I think the computer record would show the pedal was applied while the accelerator was fully applied--at least in the car computer's info.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166
    I find it very interesting that the Toyota diagnostic program does not record a WOT condition as a fault code. Yet Toyota claims all kinds of wild assertions about what the EDR is showing. Including 250 on and off depressions of the brakes while the throttle of the Sikes car was wide open. This without a crash to save the data. Toyota knows that No one in the Federal Government is smart enough to refute their claims. So they can say what they want about any given Toyota incident, without fear of being caught.

    The question I want to see answered, will they pull the wool over the Jury's eyes as they have with so many media people?
  • luckysevenluckyseven Posts: 134
    We need to go by cold facts. If by now there is only 4 SUA-UA proved cases per gazillion manufactured Toyota vehicles there is only one explanation behind SUA- UA publicity and whole anti - T. compain, it's a political one. I don't think NHTSA leak is unintended, they just don't have anything to show us. Time will tell...
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,972
    does anyone what equipment is being used to read the EDR data?
  • beachfish2beachfish2 Posts: 177
    "Any suggestions????? "

    About the brakes? Sure. Buy a 2006 Avalon XLS. The one I just sold with 46,000 miles on it had the original brakes. Knowing I was going to be selling it to a woman at work, I twice (2x) tried to get the dealer to redo the brakes, or at least the front pads. They wouldn't, said everything had at least another 10k to 20k miles on it. Go figure.

    Then again, if you're riding the brakes down all of these steep hills, well, nothing is going to last too long.

    John
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,205
    What? They didn't wanna get paid?
  • jjadusjjadus Posts: 3
    The Wall Street Journal is reporting this afternoon that senior officials in the U.S. Department of Transportation are temporarily blocking release of findings that could favor Toyota in an unintended acceleration probe, according to a recently retired official with knowledge of the situation.
    The story is based on an interview with George Person, who retired from the National Highway Safety Administration (NHTSA) on July 3. Person was the head of NHTSA’s recall management division and was involved in the agency’s probe into the causes of accidents in which drivers said their Toyotas suddenly accelerated on their own. He told the newspaper that since March, NHTSA has examined 40 incidents, determined 23 vehicles had accelerated suddenly, and in all 23, the electronic data recorders showed the car’s throttle was wide open and the brake was not depressed at the time of impact, suggesting driver error. “It’s become very political,” he said.
    “There is a lot of anger towards Toyota,” adding that transportation officials “are hoping against hope that they find something that points back to a flaw in Toyota vehicles.”

    To read the full Wall Street Journal story, click on:
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703999304575399523349443634.html?m- od=googlenews_wsj
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166
    determined 23 vehicles had accelerated suddenly, and in all 23, the electronic data recorders showed the car’s throttle was wide open and the brake was not depressed at the time of impact, suggesting driver error.

    Does anyone but me see how silly that is? To think that someone would hold their foot on the throttle wide open until they crash is beyond belief. Now if UA was happening equally among the different automakers, they may be able to convince me. It is at least 3 to 1 against all other auto makers combined. Toyota has some serious issues. And I do not believe for a minute they are telling the truth about the EDR readings. They were top secret just a few months ago with only one reader in the whole USA. All lies put out by the Toyota PR machine. And the NHTSA are clueless.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    Old news. Nothing to see there that hasn't been rehashed.

    George Person is RETIRED from the NHTSA and is in good standing. Let's see how long that lasts.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 6,067
    Just as I have always said, nothing more than confused, panicked drivers jamming on the gas instead of hitting the brakes. Sprinkle in a few would be scammers, a floor mat or a beer can or two jammed under the gas pedal and everything is explained.

    What a colossal tempest in a teapot !!! All those idiot congressmen should have to apologize to Toyota and pay damages !!

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,166
    George Person is RETIRED from the NHTSA and is in good standing. Let's see how long that lasts.

    Says who. He was in charge of recalls and dropped the ball several times over the last several years. Funny he just retired in July after more recalls came to light that the NHTSA should have been on top of. No comment on his retirement from the NHTSA. They will not say anything negative that can be turned into a lawsuit.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    He was in charge of recalls and dropped the ball several times over the last several years.

    Hey that's par for the course when referring to civil service employees.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    edited August 2010
    Gary says, "To think that someone would hold their foot on the throttle wide open until they crash is beyond belief."

    Gary, please.

    That DOES actually happen. People panic and think they are holding the brake when they are holding the gas.

    Is documented in many, many accident cases.

    As "beyond belief" as it may sound, it's a proven human panic reaction.

    Q
    DRIVING AUTOMATICS SAFELY: Why do you repeatedly advocate left foot braking of automatic cars?
    A
    Because in the absence of a clutch to separate the driven wheels from the engine it's the only way to remain in full control of an automatic, especially when manouvering. An engine may surge at any time, either due to a fault, due the engine ECU protecting the catalytic converter from unburned fuel, or due to driver error or muscular spasm. In the time it can then take to get the right foot from the accelerator to the brake a child could be run over and killed (there were three such cases within days of each other in September 2003). In addition, elderly drivers are known to have become confused and instead of braking with the right foot have stabbed the accelerator.

    Furthermore, many elderly people wear thick, heavy, welted shoes that can be more difficult to move quickly and can catch under the brake pedal.

    That's why I recommend elderly drivers to to think very carefully before making a switch from a lifetime of manuals to an automatic. Often it's too late to safely make the change. The problem with automatic transmission is that, unless the driver drives 'two footed', he or she has far less control over the car than over a manual – which is why we read of many deaths and injuries caused by 'out of control' automatics. What usually happens is that during the engine's warm-up phase, or if the engine has been over-fuelling, the electronic control unit raises engine revs to above the point at which drive is taken up in the transmission, and the car starts to move. The driver may then panic, attempt to brake heavily, but hit the accelerator instead of the brake, and the car either crashes or runs someone over. (The phenomenon even has a name: 'Sudden Acceleration Syndrome'.) You cannot predict precisely when the car's ECU will increase revs independently, so my advice is to only buy an automatic if you can teach yourself to brake with your left foot at least while manoeuvring, which keeps the car fully under control. Skilled drivers left-foot-brake automatics – and even manuals – all the time, but not everyone can get their heads around the technique for everyday driving, especially if they switch between the two types of transmission.

    Three examples of death by right foot braking of automatics:

    A retired driving instructor was manoeuvring his Mini automatic in a supermarket carpark using only his right foot as he had always taught his pupils. Either the engine surged or he had a spasm. He quickly stamped his right foot on the brake, hit the accelerator instead and the Mini went into a wall. He died of his injuries.

    A man was parking his BMW automatic in a Hong Kong multi story car park. Either the engine suddenly surged or the driver had a spasm. He tried to brake. Hit the accelerator instead of the brake. Crashed through the safety barrier and plunged six floors to his death.

    An elderly gentleman was reversing his automatic car one footed, aided by his wife of 50 years standing behind it. Suddenly the car surged and he has unable to get his foot off the accelerator onto the brake before he had run her over and killed her.


    And:

    Glass Breakage

    image

    A slip of her foot had dramatic consequences for a pensioner trying to park her car.

    Instead of pressing down on the accelerator she hit the brake and appears to have shot off the road, up several steps, through a glass wall and into the lobby of an apartment block.


    And:

    Death by incorrect pedal

    ROANOKE -- A man was killed Friday night when a woman backing out of a parking spot hit the gas instead of the brake and plowed into a group of people.

    Steven Hodel, 60, was pronounced dead at OSF Saint Francis Medical Center in Peoria.

    Hodel was trapped under a car driven by Ruby Kennell, 85, of Roanoke. Kennell was backing out of her parking spot when she saw a group of people sitting in lawn chairs along the road. She attempted to hit the brakes, but instead stepped on the gas, speeding into the group.


    And:

    Police say a woman hit the gas instead of the brake and drove through the front windows at a credit union office in Aberdeen.

    Happens. All. The. Time.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Google this phrase:

    hit the accelerator instead of the brake

    and see how many stories there are of that happening.

    FAR MORE instances of that than there are "supposed" cases of 'Yota SUA.

    True, the "full mystery" of what is causing 'Yota SUA has yet to be solved COMPLETELY - but some of them are most ASSUREDLY driver error.
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