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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall



  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    The facts speak for themselves. The LAT shup up after Toyota posted it's reponse.

    The long view is that the fixes will be made, new pedals will be installed and production/sales will resume.

    Unfortunately, you are correct! However, that doesn't fix the problem that Toyota has tried to deny for over 5 years and denies there is a problem. So what is really causing the problem in Toyota vehicles remains to be seen.

    As someone else had already referenced:
    "My biggest concern is that most of the credible reports describe the incident in a way that cannot be explained by a stuck pedal. "I tapped the brake and the car took off", "I did not press down on the gas pedal", "I know my foot had hit the brake and not the gas". Since the cars computer has exclusive control over the throttle position at all times no matter what the driver does, this sounds more like a problem in the electronics. If a bug in the computer has it in la-la land, it may not be accepting any inputs from pedals or switches or anything to change the throttle. "
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    I don't think Toyota was legally required to stop selling anything.

    Until there is a proven problem, and proven to be Toyota's responsibility, I don't see that our goverment could force anything. Our government asked Toyota to with hold the products from the market and as I see it Toyota "voluntarily" agreed.

    It is/was not, clearly not, Toyota's responsibility to be certain floor mats were being properly installed or used. They suppy floor mats with the holes for the retraining hooks and the hooks. We all should know that if the optional factory floor mats are shipped with the vehicle they are installed during dealer prep.

    Insofar as I am concerned no one can say, definitively, that the sticking accelerator pedal is the primary causative factor in these run-a-way vehicle incidents. It just doesn't pass the "smell" test.

    No trying to side with Toyota, just applying logic.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    " does present a balanced.."


    Until the firmware source code is revealed (FAT CHANCE..!!) and analyzed by someone of appropriate knowledge there can be no balanced and knowledgeable independent explanation.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,448
    the Government can do what ever the 'H E double hockey sticks' it wants to.
    Until recently, Toyota was not a competitor of ' Government Motors', the #1 vehicle sales corporation in the USA.
    I also see it as putting the wrong floor mat or 1 floor mat on top of another not to be an acceptable reason to have a vehicle to be unsafe to operate.
    Are correcting those 2 issues the final solution? TBD.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 17,702
    >This is where toyota slapped the LAT down for fabricatin gfacts and misrepresenting...

    Must not have slapped them down very hard. Yup. toyota sure shut up the TIMES.,0,4401302.story?t- rack=rss

    Doubt cast on Toyota's decision to blame sudden acceleration on gas pedal defect

    Federal vehicle safety records reviewed by The Times also cast doubt on Toyota's claims that sticky gas pedals were a significant factor in the growing reports of runaway vehicles. Of more than 2,000 motorist complaints of sudden acceleration in Toyota and Lexus vehicles over the last decade, just 5% blamed a sticking gas pedal, the analysis found.

    What's more, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has conducted eight investigations into sudden-acceleration problems in Toyota vehicles over the last seven years, none of which identified a sticking pedal as a potential cause.

    "The way the sudden-acceleration problems are occurring in reported incidents doesn't comport with how this sticky pedal is described," said Sean Kane, president of Safety Research & Strategies, a Rehoboth, Mass., auto safety consulting firm. "We know this recall is a red herring."

    Sudden-acceleration events in Toyota and Lexus vehicles have been blamed for at least 19 fatalities and 815 vehicle crashes since 1999.

    Toyota last fall blamed the episodes on floor mats that entrapped the gas pedals, leading to a massive recall. Then last week Toyota said sticking gas pedals were also causing sudden acceleration by not springing back into idle position, triggering another recall.

    On Tuesday, the automaker stopped sales and production of eight models until it could remedy the problem.

    Independent auto safety experts have been skeptical of Toyota's explanations, saying floor mats and sticky gas pedals can't fully explain the large number of complaints that have been mounting for the last decade, covering some of the most popular models in the company's lineup, including the Camry.

    That argument was given more weight Friday when the manufacturer of the suspect pedals insisted its products had been unfairly blamed.

    CTS Corp. of Elkhart, Ind., said in a statement that it had "deep concern that there is widespread confusion and incorrect information" about its products linked to the sudden-acceleration issue.

    "The problem of sudden unintended acceleration has been reported to have existed in some Lexus vehicles and Toyota vehicles going back to 1999, when CTS did not even make this product for any customer," the company said.

    Toyota began using CTS-made pedals in the 2005 model year.

    On Jan. 21, Toyota told federal regulators that CTS pedals were susceptible to moisture and could stick, forcing the recall of 2.3 million cars and trucks. CTS acknowledged that a tiny number of pedals had a rare condition that could cause a slow return to idle position, but it denied that this condition could cause unintended acceleration and said that it knew of no accidents or injuries caused by the issue.

    Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said the company had no comment on CTS' statement.

    Another Toyota spokesman, Mike Michels, said in an e-mail that the company had identified the pedal problem as "abnormal friction in the pedal pivot mechanism" and that the automaker hoped to announce a remedy soon.

    Toyota has honored CTS three times since 2005 for the quality and efficiency of its work, citing the fact that the supplier "exceeded quality expectations" and achieved "100 percent on-time delivery and for shipping accelerator pedal modules with zero defects."

    The automaker also uses pedals supplied by Denso Corp., a Japanese company with North American headquarters in suburban Detroit, but has said those do not appear to be defective.

    However, the Times review of federal safety records shows several instances of complaints of stuck pedals on vehicles built in Japan, which Toyota has said are not subject to the recall. For example, one complaint, filed two years ago, told of a 2007 Japanese-built Camry in Maryland with a pedal that "stuck to the floor."

    A wide group of national automotive experts say there is strong evidence that a hidden electronic problem must account for at least some, if not most, of the Toyota sudden-acceleration events.

    The 19 sudden-acceleration deaths involving Toyota vehicles are more than those that have occurred in vehicles from all other automakers combined, according to figures provided to The Times by NHTSA.

    This message has been approved.

  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Yes, in the end our goverment can do whatever the fghj it wishes to, GW proved that in spades. But in this case Toyota was asked, not "told".
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,448
    the way I have read it, it was 'told' not 'asked'.
    what have you read that leads you that conclusion?
  • Stever@EdmundsStever@Edmunds YooperlandPosts: 38,950
    "Toyota Motor Corp. received clearance from federal regulators on a fix for the company's sticky gas pedals, three people briefed on the matter said on Saturday.

    A Department of Transportation official confirmed that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration did not object to Toyota's repair plans. Technically NHTSA's approval is not required, but Toyota would be reluctant to proceed if the government raised objections."

    Feds approve Toyota gas pedal remedy (MSNBC)

    Toyota Gas Pedal Fix Clears Regulators (Wall St. Journal version)
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    For those that still want to convince themself that Toyota took aggressive action for the sake of the consumer...Turns out, the decision to stop producing these vehicles wasn't made by Toyota alone. The Detroit News reports that Toyota is required by law to stop selling the vehicles since there is no fix available yet.

    Nevertheless, Toyota spokesman Mike Michels is reported saying that the company's decision to stop selling the recalled vehicles was voluntary, but that they also had a legal requirement to do so.

    Toyota was legally required to stop selling recalled models

    image image image

    How do you voluntary do something that you're obligated to do?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,676
    Until the firmware source code is revealed (FAT CHANCE..!!)and analyzed by someone of appropriate knowledge there can be no balanced and knowledgeable independent explanation.

    Toyota also closely guards the Event Data Recorder information. So no outside entity can determine what happened before an accident. There is still the Smoking Gun delivered to the dealer with WOT. And the driver says the pedal WAS NOT DEPRESSED with the car at full throttle. That does not sound like a pedal problem. Something beyond the throttle pedal was keeping the car at WOT.

    Why doesn't the NHTSA force Toyota to reveal the firmware for outside review? Why do they allow them to hide the information in the EDR? The 2008 Avalon that ended upside down in a pond killing 4 people was NOT floor mat related. Was it a sticking pedal? Where is the EDR data from that December 26th tragedy? 2100 accidents attributed to SUA is significant.

    The LA Times was not intimidated by the Toyota response last year.,0,3951770.story

    The reverberations continued Friday as Toyota announced that a European recall could include up to 1.8 million cars, pushing the global total to 9 million, or nearly as many vehicles as were sold in the U.S. last year.,0,5882035.story
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    They apparently use the CTS pedal.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Toyota to Issue a Fix for Recalled Cars
    Published: January 30, 2010
    DETROIT — Toyota Motor has come up with a remedy to fix the millions of cars it recalled because their accelerator pedals could become stuck, federal officials and dealers said Saturday.

    Word of the remedy came as the French automaker Peugeot said it was recalling cars it builds with Toyota at a plant the companies operate together in the Czech Republic, widening a recall that has already affected cars in the United States, Canada, China and throughout Europe.

    Toyota presented a plan for repairing the potentially sticky pedals to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, a senior official at the Transportation Department said. The official spoke on condition of anonymity.

    The safety agency is not required to approve remedies but can reject them if it thinks they will not sufficiently address defects. The agency did not reject the remedy, the Transportation official said.

    Toyota officials phoned dealers Saturday to say that a remedy was ready.

    “We got the call this morning,” said Peter Blackstock, the owner of Victory Toyota and Lexus Monterey Peninsula in Seaside, Calif. “The parts are on their way.”

    A Toyota spokesman, Mike Michels, said the company planned an announcement next week and would send letters to owners, but he cautioned it could take several weeks for notices to arrive. Toyota wants owners to wait for the letters before they take their cars to dealerships for repairs, he said.

    Mr. Blackstock said he expected that dealers would be sent replacement accelerator pedals, which are produced for Toyota by CTS, a parts supplier based in Elkhart, Ind.

    Separately on Saturday, the traffic safety agency said it had opened an investigation into the manufacture of the accelerator pedals.

    Last week, Toyota said it would temporary stop production and sales of eight models — as well as sales of the Pontiac Vibe, which Toyota makes on behalf of General Motors — at plants throughout the United States and Canada. The plants are scheduled to be closed for a week beginning on Monday.

    Toyota did not stop production or sales at plants in Europe because it said it had already devised and implemented a remedy there.

    The recall for accelerator pedals involves 4.1 million cars in the United States, Europe and elsewhere. Toyota has also recalled another 5.4 million cars in the United States whose accelerator pedals could get stuck on floor mats. Worldwide, the recalls affect more than 9.5 million vehicles.

    The recalls have given a black eye to Toyota, which grew to become the world’s largest automaker, and the second largest in the United States, based on a reputation for building high-quality vehicles.

    On Friday, Toyota’s chief executive, Akio Toyoda, apologized for the problem but said consumers should feel confident driving the company’s cars.

    Toyota’s competitors have tried to capitalize on the company’s troubles by offering trade-in deals to Toyota owners. But it is still unclear what effect the recalls might have on Toyota’s sales in the United States., a Web site that provides car-buying advice, forecast that Toyota’s market share for January would fall to a four-year low. But, which tracks consumers’ shopping habits, said consideration of Toyota brands had actually risen over the last few days.

    Mr. Blackstock, the California dealer, said he hoped repairs could be completed quickly. He said he did not think the recalls would have a lasting effect on his business, or that of Toyota.

    “If this is the worst thing that happens to us this year, it should be a pretty good year,” Mr. Blackstock said.

    Life goes on. Fixes will be installed, new pedals will be installed and sales will go on. The long view.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,771
    Sounds like 'ol revit is wanting to get some of them "reparations" to me. Maybe a free 2009 Camry. Not gonna happen revit. :)

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460

  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    The problem is not the pedals so once again, Toyota does not have a fix for the problem; yet another Toyota cover up.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,676
    Sounds a bit like last year when Toyota announced all was hunky dory. The next day the NHTSA slapped them down and said not all is well. This was an anonymous person with the NHTSA giving the go ahead on the pedal fix. Sure you can put in your parts. That does not mean the investigation is over. Too many unanswered questions. What about the WOT without a sticking pedal? ABC is too involved with that case to let Toyota try a fast one. I am sure Toyota would love to SHIM their way out of this mess.
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    Since first importing cars to the United States more than five decades ago, Toyota Motor Corp. has slowly and steadily built itself into the world's preeminent automaker, developing a strong reputation for technical expertise and reliability.

    Now two major recalls and Tuesday's decision to suspend making and selling eight models because of a safety issue put Toyota's gains at risk.

    How well the Japanese automaker responds may determine whether it can avoid the inexorable trends that eventually sent former industry leader General Motors Corp. into bankruptcy last year -- an aging customer base and a seeming inability to tackle quality issues squarely.

    Unless it can quickly identify and come up with a fix for the occasional but sometimes deadly acceleration problems that have plagued its vehicle line, there will be more formerly loyal customers, such as John Whiffen of Malibu, who will flee to other brands.

    Whiffen, a longtime Toyota fan who prized the vehicles for their feeling of safety, began having sudden-acceleration problems last spring with one of the two Highlander sport utility vehicles in the family, which also owns a Lexus.

    But his dealer downplayed the first three incidents, and Whiffen continued driving it until a fourth incident in August sent his SUV into a wall, causing $12,000 in damage.

    This week, nearly six months later, he said, the dealer's service department called to tell him the vehicle had no problems and checked out fine. For Whiffen, a retired orthopedic surgeon, it was the last straw.

    "I thought Toyota was a very good company and built good products," Whiffen said. "Now I wouldn't even consider buying a Toyota in the future. This whole event tells me that they don't value my life, and that means I should never buy another car from them."

  • I was thinking exactly the same thing as you as I read revit's post just above yours. The sticking accelerator pedal may be part of the problem but like you say, what about the cases of WOT w/o the sticking gas pedal?

    Or are those accusations just something made up? Stick around to the end of our show and you'll see if these are true or did we just try and shim them in on you while your weren't looking.

    Sorry, couldn't resist the "Fact or Fiction" allegory. Thought I was watching that show for a second. :blush:

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • After watching the various informative "pedal' videos, and reading posted info about several folks who probably DID NOT have a sticking pedal during excessive acceleration, I must agree with wwest. It is very inconclusive that a sticky pedal is the primary cause of all of these run-a-way incidents.

    If Toyota replaced my very smooth CTS accelerator pedal assembly tomorrow, I'm not sure I would feel any safer!

    And by the way, I ignored the Toyota letter about removing the floor mats in my 2007 Avalon. There is no way that my properly anchored, factory carpet, mats are ever going to cause a problem with the accelerator pedal.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,676
    the dealer's service department called to tell him the vehicle had no problems and checked out fine. For Whiffen, a retired orthopedic surgeon, it was the last straw.

    I see these technicians with all automakers as Laptop jockeys. If they cannot find an error code when they plug in and do an analysis, all is OK. And if they do it is change a module and put the car on the road. What happens when there is a failure that does not show up? Like a mechanical part that wears out? Do these cars have sensors on every mechanical device to determine a fault? It seems all too often we read complaints from owners where the dealers just blame it on the consumer. For someone with 150k trouble free miles, it is not the vehicle's fault. Even here on Edmund's we have gotten people coming in frustrated with a vehicle and the proponents of that brand will castigate the poster to where they just leave. So we never find out the outcome of their problem. Much of this is coming to a head with Toyota.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160 that at a point soon the fixes will arrive at the dealers service departments, new pedals will be installed in new vehicles at the plants, production will resume, sales will resume and this dust-up ( which is far less serious than Pinto, Vega, or Exploder/Firestone ) will recede into the distant past like those prior 'disasters'.

    The public that now has strong anti-Toyota sentiments now like several herein will have those sentiments reinforced and still will never set foot in a Toyota store.

    The bulk of the population that has little or no direct interest in these issues on a daily basis because it doesn't involve them will continue to have little or no interest and soon will forget about it. People still buy Fords and Ford is the current darling despite killing people all over the country with Exploders back only 10 yrs ago.

    The public that is loyal to Toyota and is having no issues will cut them some slack for one very good reason...we're all self-centered. We think about ourselves first and foremost. If drivers are not being incovenienced and have no issues at all with their vehicles then they're not likely to budge.

    Some current owners definitely will move on to new pastures. These might be considered 'grazers' since they move from maker to maker trying new opportunities.

    But as reported in most articless as well as by the NHTSA, by CTS and by Toyota the very very isolated incidences are very unlikely to impact any meaningful group of potential 'intenders' as Edmunds calls them. We being self-centered at heart look to our own experiences first and while the FLASH BANG is intense right now the long view is..... well you know what that is. But it's fun for the first group.
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