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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    What is your opinion on the Audi SUA?

    That was a 1980s Audi model that did not have the sophisticated electronics that are in current vehicles. This is a new issue and not 60 minutes leading the attack. It is the NHTSA. Time will tell. We got 29 more years to follow the stories.

    Through manipulating the transmission, he managed to get the Audi 5000 to move on its own, but the 60 Minutes feature never brought to light that the car in question had been manipulated. “We were appalled that 60 Minutes put this thing on the air,” stated John Pollard, a principal investigator hired by NHTSA for its study. “It was a stunt…. It does not represent a real-life situation.”

    While the 60 Minutes debacle is interesting history, it represented a crushing reality to the Audi brand, nearly driving it into bankruptcy. Even after the brand was vindicated by the NHTSA, and Audi told the world the truth via full-page ads in newspapers and magazines throughout North America, it took over a decade for a return to the sales levels it enjoyed pre-60 Minutes.

    It looks likely that the nightmare is recurring, but this time its not a corrupt TV series making up stories for ratings, but the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) heading up the investigation.

    Just like in the 5000 incidents, automakers are stating that driver error is the culprit in the majority of cases. But current plaintiff lawyers allege that the high level of electronic devices and sensors are the reasons behind the recent resurgence of sudden acceleration cases. Either way, incidents involving Ford, GM and Toyota cars will be soon forgotten while those surrounding the Audi brand will long be remembered.


    deja vu all over again

    And, "it ain't over till the fat lady sings"
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    The Audi SUA resulted in an interlock system on every passenger vehicle that prevented the shifter from being moved from the park position unless the brakes were firmly applied.

    The current incident will no doubt result in a failsafe, independent, brake/throttle override required of all upcoming vehicles.

    And just maybe a push, release, push gas pedal rachet/lock if the driver wishes to quickly and suddenly go WOT. No WOT without "arming" (push/release/push) the gas pedal first.

    DBW electronics would recognize the initial gas pedal rate of depression as a "panic" type depression and would not allow the throttle plate to open.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    I have not extensively investigated Audi SUA problems - I can not objectively give an educated opinion.

    Audi 1980's 4-5 recalls are old news and the number of research articles available are insufficient to evaluate those recalls.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,955
    I doubt we will ever see that. Too complicated for the many drivers who already can't tell the gas pedal from the brakes. Or their a$$ from a hole in the ground for that matter. The lawsuits would be never ending and the fat lady would never sing.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,955
    edited August 2010
    After 30 years you are still waiting for more info. That is why I said to settle down for a long wait on the Toyota issue.

    I can only think of 6 possible causes for these incidents. Sticky pedals, floor mats or some other foreign object under the pedals, driver error and/or panic, someone trying a scam, some unknown sort of electronic problem, and little green men from mars.

    There is plenty of evidence pointing to the first 4 defendants, but the only evidence concerning electronic issues is all exclusionary and tends to show this defendant is innocent.

    No evidence to convict the little green men, but none to exclude them either, so technically they have a greater chance of being guilty than electronic issues.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Sorry, once again you are not reading my post correctly regarding Audi SUA. I said Audi problem is old and that is old news.. Note - I said indadequate info exists presently to research effectively for my evaluation. That investigation is sort of history and will probably be remembered as people chose to remember. That is closed case as far as I am concerned. I have no rpoblems with Audi. And I really liked my son's new large diesel Audi SUV his family just got.

    I do love your little reference to "little green men from Mars." Ha, tell me when you see them!

    Finding a problem with auto electronics that may cause SUA, etc. would be quite difficult considering the number of codes now in US autos. I would have to read and evaluate the actual NASA study. Talk to my family expert.

    Both you and I, everyone else could learn from the full speech documents of the expert engineer at the National Academy of Science Study committee members meeting May, 20, 2010. Outline bullet point guidelines were very interesting. Appears his speech addressed many of these auto electronic issues/discussions we keep having. But full speech is not available, nor online.

    And we may never get an honest factual answer due to present US laws, multiple other exisitng factors.
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    So if some one doesnt`t want electronics or computers in their cars,they can always take the bicycle or walk to work..Can help cure America`s obesity problem !!! :P
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Yes, the people who are totally against auto electronics - they can indeed ride bike or walk. That is their decision. Routine active riding bike or walking does have positve health benefits.

    Ha, doubt people will stop driving though!
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,259
    edited August 2010
    if some one doesn't want electronics or computers in their cars

    I was reading an old Road & Track in my doc's office earlier this week and the cartoon on the last page was of a roadster sitting in a showroom. The salesperson was extolling the U-Drive option package that was newly available - for a little bit extra, the package came with a clutch pedal, wind-up windows and a folding road map. :)

    The jury may still be out on the Audi SUA story. Last I heard, it was back before a lower court in Chicago after 20+ years of appeals.

    Moderator
    Minivan fan. Feel free to message or email me - stever@edmunds.com.

  • I see you wrote "poorly engineered drive shafts" in some of the trucks.

    I smell another recall. Just found out that my 2005 Toyota Highlander needs to have the drive shaft replaced, after only 80,000 miles on the road.

    My mechanic called a Toyota dealer for the part and the parts guy said, and I quote,"These Toyota Highlander drive shafts are FLYING OFF THE SHELVES!"

    Haven't had my car fixed yet. Anyone have a suggestion as to how to proceed?
  • luckysevenluckyseven Posts: 134
    is it only 80,000 miles or 800,000 miles? cause any mechanical breakdown after ONLY 5-6 years of service and ONLY 80,000 miles definitively seems to be a sign of poor design, any Toyota should last for at list for 50 years and 800,000 miles without any problems. Seriously though... I didn't hear that drive shafts on 1 gen HL is a big issue and your post needs to go to "Toyota Highlander Maintenance and Repair" thread.
  • cargirl65cargirl65 Posts: 4
    edited August 2010
    Really? Is it that hilarious guys?

    When a part is flying off the shelves, there's no issue?

    No need to be nasty or sarcastic.

    The 2010 Tacoma has a drive shaft issue.

    Why is it so unbelievable to think the 2005 Highlander does?
  • roho1roho1 Posts: 317
    If you haven't realized it yet this forum is loaded with Toyota haters. If you want a straight and reasonable answer your best bet is to stay in the Highlander forum. Good luck.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,370
    >your best bet is to stay in the Highlander forum

    Gotta keep those failure posts about problems separated as much as possible by keeping them in different forums rather than collectives. :P
  • luckysevenluckyseven Posts: 134
    if 2010 Tacoma has a drive shaft issue, it doesn't really mean that all Toyota cars have drive shaft issue because clearly they have not. Go to the 1st gen HL forum and ask people there is really a problem with the drive shaft. This thread covers mysterious and never proven UA issue that has nothing to do with your drive shaft.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,711
    what is really a shipload of problems for toyota of late. I would add to their "fix-it" list adding brake override systems to countless late-model and otherwise cars and SUV's to stave off more cars and SUV's built by toyota running off of cliffs and in to homes and off of large rocks. Did I mention that I would do this as of yesterday?

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    edited August 2010
    And what about a new modification that requires "arming" the DBW throttle if one wishes to go WOT..??

    Below, say, 10MPH, the gas pedal must first be applied, then FULLY RELEASED, and only then it will allow a WOT condition on the next depression. Or even, again at some low speed, requiring that the brake be applied, even lightly, before WOT DBW will be enabled.

    Mistakenly hitting the gas instead of the brake pedal would have no result, acceleration wise.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,955
    It is not possible to completely idiot proof any car. What good would the brake override do when the EDR shows that most people never touched the brakes, they just floored the gas, thinking it was the brakes.

    The obvious answer is that certain people should ride the bus instead of trying to drive.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,952
    Today I saw a current style Avalon billowing out clouds of grey smoke when stopped a light. The smoke was coming from under the car, maybe towards the front, but hard to tell. I wonder what was up there.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    edited August 2010
    That's why I have suggested an "arming" system, procedure, for the DBW throttle.

    If a driver suddenly depresses, FULLY depresses, the gas pedal without having been braking, "just" previously braking, and the vehicle is stopped or going below 10-15 MPH the modified DBW firmware would simply leave the engine idling.

    Think of how you would use the clutch in this case. You would have to closely coordinate the clutch disengagement with gas pedal depression. So what would be so different if you had to "arm" the gas pedal in order to go WOT...?

    Thanks to the Audi episode we already have to, have learned to, depress the brake in order to put an automatic into gear. So what would be so different about having to do the same thing in order to "arm", release the DBW throttle for functionality...??

    And who knows, there just may be enough unused firmware memory space in many modern vehicles that the above technique could be "back-fitted" via reflash.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,711
    I'm afraid you've lost about 95% of this thread's audience with your idea. Or is it just me you've lost. Give us the Reader's Digest version of your WOT override idea in a short paragraph or less. Perhaps in two sentences of average length. :P

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    hmmm, perfectly clear to me.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Posts: 936
    Prius is the alleged offender,and they don't offer a manual transmission.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    I assume that when someone hits the gas pedal instead of the brake pedal it is mostly the result of some sort of PANIC situation. In which case there would likely be a quick/fast depression of the gas pedal to the WOT position.

    The idea is to detect that situation and prevent the DBW throttle from opening beyond the idle position unless/until the gas pedal is fully released and then reapplied.

    We already have BA, Brake Assist, systems that detect PANIC braking via rate of brake pedal application so why not the same for/on the gas pedal.

    This "failsafe" need not apply if the brake pedal is just previously released and/or the vehicle is already traveling above ~20 MPH.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    The manual transmission example was only used to indicate that humans can readily adapt to the type of procedural sequence this SUA prevention "failsafe" DBW firmware revision would require.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,955
    edited August 2010
    But what if someone was hitting the gas in a panic to escape an oncoming train or big truck? Sometimes the fix is worse than the problem. Thanks, but I will take my chances to way it is...hit the gas and speed up, hit the brakes to stop.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Like I said, if you, "we" can learn to release the clutch pedal in order to "go forward", full or partial throttle, you, "we", certainly should be able to learn to "jiggle" the gas pedal on-off-on quickly if you wish to go WOT from below ~20 MPH and not have had the brakes applied just previously.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,955
    I agree that you and I probably would not have a problem, but what about the people who can't find the right pedal now, when they don't have to jiggle anything?

    Your idea has some merit, but the car companies would never try to institute something like this for fear of an avalanche of lawsuits.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

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