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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,846
    You understand the Prius ultimately better than I do. My understanding is when you lightly touch the brake peddle the regen braking system takes over. That shuts down the forward motion through the HSD system. The hydraulic brakes do not come into play unless you stomp hard and only for emergency stops. I don't see how Toyota can build a case for this being a hoax without admitting their electronics are faulty.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Yes, when the brake light switch is tripped the skid control ECU "looks" at several sensors to determine the level of braking the driver is "requesting". Once it determines the total braking level required at this very instant it sends a message to the HSD control ECU. Basically the skid control ECU is telling the HSD control ECU how much total braking force is required and at the same time "asking" how much of this can it supply using regenerative braking.

    In the normal case the HSD control ECU might come back with the ability of 0 to 100%, but let's use 50%. In which case now the skid control ECU can open the ABS/TC manifolds enough to supply the other 50%.

    And if the HSD control ECU isn't communicating....WHAT...??
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Well I did provide enough links with known facts I had saved since this all began today. Hope it helps everyone.

    As to your reference of an outside independent engineer - not sure they would want the liabilty or the big fight, and the professional damage attacks they could experience.

    I was shocked. Story will continue. All has been quite an education for me.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Yes, they have had a great reliability rating and record. That was why I got my RAV4. It was rated well.

    I started out thinking I needed to investigate, learn, etc when this started. I had vested interest. I had found myself with the time to do this. Just retired. Started this rooting strong for Toyota. Paper trail grew, and then disappoinment.

    Despite all I have found out about everything - I do know and realize Toyota will come back. Markets already indicate they are. Memories are short, and most people not aware of all the detailed facts.
    Etc.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    So from what you said few questions may still remain. Even though CHP saw brake material and smelled brakes. Now throw in Issa and his trail & the questions, Toyota hired Exponent engineers & possibly one of their own inhouse engineers, and who NHTSA sent.

    But brakes could/may not have been able to stop vehicle. Got it. Guess we wait for the next chaper to unfold.

    Many thanks.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    "Brian Pennings, a spokesman for the California Highway Patrol, said his agency's view that there is no evidence of a hoax is unchanged. The CHP does not plan to investigate the incident because there were no injuries or property damage.

    "Unless they can completely disprove Mr. Sikes, we're done," Pennings said. "It doesn't sound like they can do that."
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Sorry there were two posts. My computer froze and then did auto post without me hitting post my message. Sorry. Wierd. Guess a "bug" hit my poor computer too.

    "The memo said both the front and rear brakes were worn and damaged by heat, consistent with Sikes saying that he stood on the brake pedal with both feet and was unable to stop the car. But if the fail-safe system worked properly, the brakes wouldn't have been damaged because power would have been cut to the wheels.

    The Wall Street Journal reported Saturday that the wear was not consistent with the brakes being applied at full force for a long period, citing three people familiar with the probe, whom it did not name. The newspaper said the brakes may have been applied intermittently."

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gc_pIFqke7WxQovY3MnhcyIYiLgwD9- EEO8H01
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    edited March 2010
    The skid control ECU is the SOLE manager of the HYDRAULIC braking. If the HSD control ECU "told" the skid control ECU that it could provide ~70% of the braking force via regenerative braking (but didn't) then the skid control ECU would only allow 30% Hydraulic braking force. And that 30% might well have been heavily biased toward the rear brakes.

    There is STRONG evidence that the HSD control ECU firmware had gone awry so anything is possible.
  • PMOPMO Posts: 278
    You are the perfect used car shopper,I too bought this way when younger but not now. This Enclave cost me $1800.00 it is a 2009 my 2008 traded with 6000 miles. I looked at the extra 8 Hp and the options tow pak.trans.cooler. and leather could not let it go . This is trade up one year too.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    [quote]If all else fails there is direct hydraulic pressure from the brake pedal.[/quote]



    The documentation clearly implies that the skid control ECU will NOT open the ABS/TC manifold ports to allow hydraulic braking to the wheels if the HSD control ECU "says" it will provide 100% of the braking. So it might not matter how hard your depress the brake pedal the resulting hydraulic pressure may not be ported to the wheels or maybe only a portion provided what the HSD control ECU "reports".



    Yes, clearly there should be, SHOULD BE, a "time out" period if the HSD control ECU doesn't report back within a very short time limit, say <10 milliseconds.



    But if you look at the 2010 Prius TSB regarding the fix for delayed hydraulic braking in the event ABS disables regenerative braking then it becomes quite clear that NipponDenso has overlooked, until now, the need for this type of time out.



    It appears, from reading the TSB, that the early HSD control ECU was sometimes LATE (to busy, too many other more important tasks..??) in responding to the skid control ECU's query and the skid control ECU simply stood by and waited.



    Meanwhile......NO braking.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Guess story will unravel more in the near future. Many of news reports had the Wall Street version. This is fairly new AP story. Yesterday AP was reporting same as Wall Street report.

    For now ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. Thanks once again.
  • PMOPMO Posts: 278
    The 80% came from Toyota when asked by a senator at the hearings,this is what I didn't understand WWEST has the numbers but Toyota stated (the brake is only 20% of the application in this case of breaking ) Is this enough to trust your self when stopping?
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    There was a family in Colorado with a runaway Prius also - Ted James family. Wife was driving alone. Appeared to be very nice people. Were big advocates for Toyota prior to incident. Was accident. They never sued. Became upset at how Toyota treated them. What she claimed was similiar to Sikes.

    So from what you are saying Toyota was already aware there was an existing problem. News reports from Toyota - it was just 2010. Would this also exist in the earlier Prius models?
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    edited March 2010
    "...Would this also exist in the earlier Prius models.

    No, not in exactly the same way.

    My guess is that for the 2010 Prius the HSD control ECU's firmware was changed in some way that had an unintendtional/inadvertent adverse effect on the timing of the HSD control ECU's response to the skid control ECU's query.

    My other guess applies to the Sikes incident, earlier Prius model years. The HSD Control ECU's firmware craws down a rathole.

    I have long suspected a software "race" condition, the "set/accel" mode gets set "true" and for some reason it cannot be cleared, not even with brake application.

    Ms Smith offered a clue in that she regained control only after managing to get the speed low enough, <35MPH, wherein CC would normally automatically disengage. She also implied that the cruise control indicator came on without any action on her part.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,846
    edited March 2010
    Most of the runaway incidents are from 2004 - 2009 model Prius. The 2010 Prius has the brake hesitation recall that most owners should already have completed. The Sikes UA case is far from the first such incident. It is just the first with a cop as a witness.
    If you look at the NHTSA complaints against just the 2008 Prius you will find literally 100s of complaints of UA and brake failures. I did not search for other years. It should be obvious to the most casual observer that Toyota has a problem with their hybrid design. Here is an example of people with small brains. They total a 2004 Prius with UA and buy a 2008 Prius that does the same thing. Some people are just hard to get through to. Toyota has some serious issues with their electronics controlling their vehicles.

    I HAVE A 2008 TOYOTA PRIUS THAT HAS AN ACCELERATION PROBLEM WHICH IS NOT ATTRIBUTABLE TO THE FLOOR MAT. I ALSO HAD A 2004 TOYOTA PRIUS WITH THE SAME PROBLEM THAT RESULTED IN A COLLISION THAT TOTALED THE VEHICLE. THE 2008 PRIUS WAS TAKEN TO THE DEALERSHIP FOR THE ACCELERATION PROBLEM BUT THEY CAN NOT REPRODUCE IT. THE 2004 PRIUS WAS TOTALED IN A COLLISION WHERE THE VEHICLE WOULD NOT STOP. *TR

    PS
    They live among US and they are allowed to vote.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    So in the earlier models the HSD control ECU's firmware races. Since Sikes had 2008 then this would seem to apply to his vehicle. I just found James story and theirs was 2005 Prius - incident happened 2006. Found one of the sites that had story- on multiple sites. Here is that link

    http://www.safetyresearch.net/toyota-sudden-unintended-acceleration/owners-stori- es/

    So I assume what we discussed earlier doesn't apply to Sikes vehicle.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "...firmware races.."

    No, programmer term, means something other than traditional "racing".
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    You found that many complaints on 2008 Prius!!! Wow. Why isn't something being done???

    Did you see the new AP aricle I posted just recently? The earlier AP report was detrimental to Sikes with no mention of brake which I mention below. CHP are still standing by their report and case closed - appears will not reopen until Sikes incident is undeniably and 100% proven it didn't happen. States so far it sounded like they could not do. Memo released from Issa's office mentions brakes were almost gone from heat. Now we wait to see if report holds up..

    What I found particularly noteworthy - appears Issa's representative supplying reports to news. Most is detrimental to Sikes it appears. The trail w Issa is getting clearer and longer.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,846
    No doubt that Issa is in the Toyota corner. Trying to deflect from the facts of the case. Politics as usual. Highest bidding lobby gets the pork.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    PS
    They live among US and they are allowed to vote.


    Too funny :shades:

    Please note that it is an aide of a Republican that's leaking the smear. :shades:
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