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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall



  • mickeyrommickeyrom Posts: 936
    I would have commented on your post if I had any idea of what you are talking about.Not your fault,I just don't understand the terminology.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,845
    edited March 2010
    22-30 minutes of recording, exact time of day specific recording...?

    No way...!!

    I agree, that it is part of the deception by Toyota. Who can argue when they claim the ECM recorded 250 times the brake was hit. Very convenient for their case against Sikes.

    James Sikes may well be a con artist. I think he has met his match with Toyota.
  • dookie84dookie84 Posts: 33
    My 2010 Camry has a very touchy accelerator. If I press down like I would with any other car - including my 92 Camry - the car kind of lurches forward. I have to sort of tap it/baby it to get it to start smoothly from a full stop. Should I be worried or is this "the way the car drives." :(
  • Curious where you got the information about where the data is stored. I must have missed that along the way.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,845
    edited March 2010
    Here from the Toyota newsroom:

    The hybrid self-diagnostic system did show evidence of numerous, rapidly repeated on-and- off applications of both the accelerator and the brake pedals. - 268.aspx

    From an ABC interview this correction of that newsroom statement:

    After the press conference, however, a Toyota representative confirmed to ABC News that the electronic data did not show how hard the brake was being pressed. "The level of brake application is not recorded," said Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons, "only that the brakes were completely released and applied."

    Lyons also clarified Michels statement about the number of times Sikes must have hit the brakes and the accelerator. He said that the data showed that Sikes pressed and released the brakes 254 times, and did not show Sikes pressing on the accelerator, only that the throttle remained open throughout the incident. ory?id=10114198&page=2
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Posts: 44
    Gagrice, thanks for the interesting post. I disagree with shorting Toyo stock, but could be wrong.
    1) They are highly capitalized and have lots of borrowing power if necessary. Also, they are the pride of Japan, and would probably get financial support from the govt. if it came to that.
    2) There are many, many thousands of satisfied customers.
    3) Their sales have been up recently, in spite of the bad PR and how badly they have screwed things up. Multiply your monthly payment times the number of months and see how much you save with the 0% financing and rebates.
    4) I sort of agree with the Pinto comment, but who's number one of U.S. manufacturers today? Ford, of course.
    5) The truth will come out in the trials, if not sooner.
    6) Government won't ban electronic controls, because they greatly increase fuel efficiency and safety and would kill all the manufacturers, and the hybrids won't even work without it. No chance.
    7) I took my Avalon Limited in today for recall repairs and a new battery. Cost me about $120 for a 60 month battery. This car is very close to a Lexus, yet I pay Toyo prices for service instead of Lexus prices. A friend of mine took his BMW roadster in for a new battery and it cost him $750! (He got so mad he sold the car!) So I'm a very happy camper with my Avalon. With 60,000 miles it has had only brakes, one tire, wheel alignment and the battery. Runs like new. Great gas mileage.
  • Thanks, but I still don't see it. The first article simply says "The hybrid self-diagnostic system did show evidence of numerous, rapidly repeated...". The second says "a reading of electronic data from Sikes' car showed that he had applied the brakes and the accelerator alternately...". Both of those could be referring to EDR data. If you have any references to the contrary I would be very interested.

    The only technical descriptions I have seen of where these cars store data about a "sequence of events" is in the EDR buffer. I do not believe any sequence data is stored in a control module other than transient data in volatile memory being used by executing software. There may be error codes stored there, but that is not the data Toyota is pointing to. If there is only 150ms worth of sequence data in the EDR, that would explain why Toyota refrained from mentioning any span of time.
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Posts: 44
    "Honesty levels:

    Military recruiters = car salesman = Toyota at the beginning of this issue."

    When I joined the Marines, they were 100% truthful. They said they were going to kick our asses all over the place and make men out of us, and that's exactly what they did!
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,613
    edited March 2010
    it is possible for owners of other vehicle brands to like their cars too.
    just because someone gets taken to the cleaners for a new battery doesn't mean the car is bad.
    blame the dealer or the lazy owner. changing a battery is an easy job.
    i rate it a little tougher than making a grilled cheese sandwich. ;)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,845
    I have been following the Prius since the first one was delivered in San Diego. I test drove it twice and thought it was kind of cool. I slowly lost interest in the hybrids when too many little things cropped up. There have been multiple reports here of UA with the Prius. This is the first time I have ever heard of Toyota having a place that stores information about brakes and accelerator being depressed over a long period of time. You are right the EDR has a very short snippet when the airbags are deployed. I am not convinced of the 250+ brake depressions. No time stamp, just out of the blue data we are supposed to believe because Toyota says it is true. They have lied before why believe them now?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,038
    edited March 2010
    >No time stamp, just out of the blue data we are supposed to believe because Toyota says it is true

    This is most likely a case of people misusing statistics to try to make toyota-lexus look good and blame the driver Sikes. I will bet, if my data recorder in my leSabre keeps records, that it will show I have pressed the brake in my 03 Buick 255 times. With no time record on when each press occurred, it's meaningless data.
  • Actually that is not quite what is meant by no time stamp. Once triggered, the EDR records changes in the car's velocity at specific time intervals until the buffer is full (for example every 1ms), not the time of day. It does not record "brake presses" but only reductions or increases in velocity that could imply brake or gas pedal presses. Some newer EDRs store more than 150ms, for example the new Chevy Malibu stores up to 300ms. The start of recording is triggered by a predetermined level of change in velocity. It does not need to be enough to trigger airbag deployment. Once triggered, the EDR will record a full buffer (all 150ms or 300ms worth) of measurements at it's designed interval and then stops. If the airbag did deploy, the EDR cannot overwrite the data it has recorded. If the airbag did not deploy, no reset is needed and the EDR can store a new buffer of data if it happens again.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,038
    >Once triggered, the EDR records changes in the car's velocity

    Whoa. The toyota-lexus folk indicated this showed the BRAKE had been depressed. Initially they said the brake and accelerator pedal alternated. You may be talking about the actual EDR for the auto. This record comes from an alleged recorder on the brake/electrical system for the Prius.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,845
    edited March 2010
    If the EDR is only capable of holding 150-300ms of data, not much change can be recorded. It could tell if the throttle is depressed or the brake is depressed. Maybe if both are depressed. With the average reaction time of a human being about 200ms, not much is recorded in the EDR. My understanding is nothing is stored in the EDR on a Toyota unless the airbags are deployed. That would mean at the time of impact, it saves 150ms of data. So that would not be used in the runaway Prius. According to Toyota the EDR in the ES350 that killed 4 people here was not readable.

    So the question is this? Where is this non volatile data stored in the Prius, showing 254 depressions of the brake while the throttle was WO? If this has been available in the Prius for several years why was it not used in other cases of SUA? Or are the dealers directed by Corporate to reset that memory when someone claims their Prius experienced SUA?
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Gary says, "They have lied before why believe them now? "

    Just because you told a lie once in your life makes you a liar, forever, never again to be believed?

  • zigster38zigster38 Posts: 72
    I think the bottom line is that Toyota has denied problems that have occurred in the past, and no one believes them now. As someone who has worked in a large corporation, the legal dept. just wants you to deny, deny, deny until they go to court or the case is dropped.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    That might be true in some private companies and probably is a standard procedure in many.

    But there are outside interests involved here, like Congress, NHTSA, plaintiff lawyers, etc.

    Toyota KNOWS they cannot lie any longer, and that lying at this point is just idiotic.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Hiding the truth, say deep inside NipponDenso in Japan, is not the same as lying. At least insofar as US courts are concerned.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,845
    You have a point. It is not considered lying until you got caught under oath. Like Toyota did in the Congressional hearings. An example when Inaba denied his role in saving $100 million by somehow getting the NHTSA to drop their investigation into UA back in 2007.

    A month after Inaba’s presentation, in which he boasted Toyota saving $100 million over a full recall, a family of four were killed in a Lexus involving a stuck gas pedal under a floor mat. In November 2009, Toyota eventually issued a full recall on the issue to prevent further incidents.

    Toyota will continue to lie and deceive even if they are caught and prosecuted in criminal court. And who ever takes the fall will do it out of loyalty to Toyota and Japan. It is the culture.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    edited March 2010
    Gary says, "Toyota will continue to lie and deceive even if they are caught and prosecuted in criminal court. And who ever takes the fall will do it out of loyalty to Toyota and Japan. It is the culture."

    Oh, Puh-Leeze. Culture Schmulture.
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