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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,196
    Well, a very brave or stupid stuntman could try to duplicate the problem. We can always take a stock ES350 and put a roll cage in it ala NASCAR and try to duplicate the problem with a race car driver at the wheel. I don't know if there are any NASCAR drivers desperate, greedy, or foolish enough to take on this task. I don't think Kyle Busch would want to upset his sponsor.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Agree Mike. Toyota built it's reputation on precision engineering and is the only reason why they stole so many customers from the Big 3. Hopefully the american consumer will realize that Japanese automobiles have flaws and faults just like the Big 3. If this story doesn't die down just maybe General Motors will once again be the worlds largest automaker!!!!! :shades:

    -Rocky
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,389
    >The two best examples I can think of are the Ford Pinto exploding gas tank and the Chevy truck exploding gas tank.

    Those two flaws in vehicles don't compare with the unintended acceleration and the ongoing coverup.

    The Pinto gas tank only caught fire (not exploded) if the car were hit in the rear, hard. Then there was no fire unless the car was hit again in the secondary impact which caused metal to rub and generate a spark which caught the gasoline the might, might be leaking out the rear of the tank through the intrusion caused by the rear axle differential housing.

    This didn't happen in every accident, and it didn't happen when driving your Pinto around and parking and going down the highway. It only occurred in that unlikely event of a severe REAR end accident.

    Same for Chevy truck fuel tank.
  • flxmomflxmom Posts: 24
    Another question,,,IF it is Electronic or the drive by wire theory..then what does it matter what pedal it is or does it? Can one pedal work well with the system and the other not and was the CTS pedal in ALL the cars that had accidents, I doubt it..They arent saying anything about that...My Sienna doesnt have the CTS pedal but it has had lots of complaints about over acceleration including crashes..its not on the recall,WHY?! I dont trust Toyota one bit, it makes me just shake my head because I thought I was buying the best for my familys saftey ! Also, WOT,,how fast would this be ? Do we drive with a WOT?
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Posts: 2,882
    The specifics on what brings out the flaw are not at issue. It comes down to statistics. The Ford Pinto had a significant number of serious injuries in rear end accidents as compared to other manufacturers in similar accidents. Same with the Chevy trucks with side impact accidents. Both vehicles were leaders in their respecitve category, when compared with other manufacturers. Now it's the same with Toyota in the "Unintended Acceleration" category.

    Alex, I'll take Side Impact Explosions for $200 please..... :)
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    The two best examples I can think of are the Ford Pinto exploding gas tank and the Chevy truck exploding gas tank.

    More importantly, what year did both of those occur?

    This is 2010, the age of Toyota setting itself apart from all other automakers or are we comparing the Camry to the Pinto? :)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,058
    The Pinto gas tank only caught fire (not exploded) if the car were hit in the rear, hard.

    According to witnesses of the San Diego ES350 crash, It burst into flames after rolling several times. Does that mean we should add poorly designed gas tank to the other recalls for the Lexus ES350? Toyota is the one in the hot seat now. The other auto makers have had problems and dealt with them. Now it is Toyota's turn to get their act together.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,389
    I didn't go back to read if I missed the point of your earlier post or not.

    >flaw are not at issue. It comes down to statistics

    The statistics are much more easily collected and collated now than when the Pinto was found to need a rubber diaper to prevent metal-to-metal contact if a rear collision were hard enough to move the differential housing into the tank.

    Also I don't recall Pinto being marketed as the greatest car with tremendous reliability and and perfect safety rating. I also don't recall that advertising and selling continuing even after early reports that fires did occur.

    I said many times in forums that the reputation leads by 3-4 years here over reality. Some reputations have gone up to better than people's perceptions and memories from friends and family give them; others have gone down and people still thought the reputation were much greater than is deserved.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,058
    Transportation Secy: Don't Drive Recalled Toyotas
    LaHood Called Automaker 'A Little Safety Deaf' During Probe Of Problem

    Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood is advising owners of recalled Toyotas to stop driving them and seek repair immediately.

    LaHood's warning came Wednesday in testimony before a House Appropriations subcommittee on transportation. LaHood says his advice to owners is to "stop driving it. Take it to a Toyota dealer because they believe they have a fix for it."


    http://wcbstv.com/local/stop.driving.toyotas.2.1467177.html

    If you drive a Toyota under recall and have an accident where someone is injured, you could be part of any lawsuit. The liability switches from Toyota to the owner that disregards the mandate.
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    And what year was the Pinto issue?

    I know Toyota quality has dropped, but if the Camry is now being compared to a Pinto...oh my :sick:
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Posts: 2,882
    What? I'm sueing Toyota for my monthly car payment, cost of renting another one, diminished value, loss of use, emotional distress, etc. etc. I can see a flood of law suits like this coming.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Here is alert to everyone just coming out. LaHood Secretary of our government safety agency has just made public announcement advising all owners of recall models to stop driving their cars. take to Toyota dealerships.

    Link to news article. Just hitting news now - can't find others as yet.
    http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/03/news/companies/dot_toyota_lahood/index.htm?hpt=T- 1

    Oh no!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,058
    Well the dealerships are complaining about lack of customers. Just not the kind they probably want to see. Good luck finding a rental replacement. Since Toyota sells 20% to rental fleet companies, there will be a shortage of cars to rent.

    Anyone doubt this is not politically motivated by the UAW controlled Congress and Administration?
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,768
    >The two best examples I can think of are the Ford Pinto exploding gas tank and the Chevy truck exploding gas tank.

    Those two flaws in vehicles don't compare with the unintended acceleration and the ongoing coverup.


    While I'm no apologist for Toyota, and they are rightly getting their dues (did you see today's comment from the government that owners of recalled vehicles should stop driving their cars and get them fixed?) -- Ford's lawyers saying it is cheaper to let a few people burn to death and pay those lawsuits than to redesign the Pinto is IMHO *much worse* than anything we've seen from Toyota at this time. Maybe not if more stuff comes out.
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    I'm sueing Toyota

    No, no, no !! Owners need to take more of a Soprano's approach if they are not getting their concerns addressed by Toyots dealers.

    I'd take my car down to the dealer and get a repair or have them buy it back for KBB retail, or tell them the option is your car's going to be across the street running from their lot and showroom, and geez it might just accelerate right into their showroom. :P

    Maybe the government could help people by redefining an attempt at a repair, that can be counted towards the Lemon Law. For instance if the consumer documents taking the vehicle 3X to the dealer and the dealer says they have no fix, or appointments are months out, that doesn't matter.

    If the dealer turns away the request for repair without providing a similar rental, then that's an "attempt-at-fix". 3 of those and Toyota is forced to buy it back as a Lemon. Consumers would have the choice to do that, or to wait months for a Toyota fix.
  • oparroparr Posts: 61
    I hate to have to admit it, but I have a 2009 Toyota Camry sitting in my garage that has not moved since January.

    Someone stole the engine or the wheels?
  • OK host Steve, don't you think its time to rein this thread in a little. I want to read about Toyota's accelerator recall, not suicide options, Pintos, Chevy pickups, or the UAW controlled Administration. Folks must be out of relevant Toyota news.
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    Folks must be out of relevant Toyota news.

    Are you getting, seems like there is a new story every hour...now its the Prius with bad breaks, Don't drive your Toyota, and the afternoon has just begun.
  • Toyota, as we all know, has come under fire for alleged safety issues. The cynic in me causes me to suspect that Toyota's competitors are exaggerating the accelerator issuue. That could well be GM, aka: Obama Motors, which is struggling to survive. My 2010 Prius hasn't received a recall notice, although my understanding is that only Toyota's produced in the US are at risk. Given the track record of US built cars over the years in terms of recalls, it would not be a surprise if GM, Chrysler or Ford doesn't discover safety related issues in the coming months.

    I will stick with my Prius, at least until one of the big three develops an auto that can achieve 50MPG. The Chevy Volt, at $40,0000.00, is beyond the means of most middle class Americans, and it renains to be be seen how the Volt will perform in everyday use..
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    It would be utterly stupid IMMHO to use the existing throttle control, engine/transaxle ECU control module, to implement a failsafe for preventing engine run-a-way. Yes, go ahead and embed some sort of "watchdog" within the existing code, but a true failsafe would require a "secondary" implementation method.

    Time for an aftermarket product..??

    Have a microprocessor "watch" the existing brake fluid pressure sensor and the EFI PWM pulse width. If the brake pressure rises above a certain level and the PWM doesn't decline cognizant with the idle setting within a second or so then use a relay to OPEN the EFI or fuel pump circuit.
  • topgun7topgun7 Posts: 409
    I will stick with my Prius, at least until one of the big three develops an auto that can achieve 50MPG

    Prius is also being investigated.. It may not be as serious as Camry etc.. But it is not home free yet...

    http://www.leftlanenews.com/japan-u-s-to-investigate-prius-brakes-apple-co-found- er-complains-of-acceleration-issue.html

    Japan, U.S. to investigate Prius brakes; Apple co-founder complains of acceleration issue
    02/03/2010, 10:23 AMBy Andrew Ganz
    Toyota’s popular Prius – in many ways the company’s flagship model – has been insulated from the automaker’s massive unintended acceleration recall, but now the hybrid is undergoing scrutiny over a brake-related issue that has been blamed in at least one wreck in Japan. Meanwhile, Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak says his 2010 Prius has a software issue that causes it to continue accelerating until the brakes are applied.

    The scrutiny applies only to Toyota’s all-new 2010 Prius, which was not involved in the automaker’s accelerator pedal recall.

    The issue, according to Toyota, stems from weak performance on rough or frozen roads. It is unclear if the problem is related to the vehicle’s brake pedal, ABS system or something separate.

    “The complaints received via our dealers center around when drivers are on a bumpy road or frozen surface,” Paul Nolasco, a Toyota spokesman in Japan, told CNN. “The driver steps on the brake and they do not get as full of a braking feel as expected.”

    Japan’s Transport Ministry has recorded 14 brake-related complaints since the third-generation Prius launched in its home market in May and Kyodo News says that more than 100 complaints have been lodged in the U.S. One wreck was recorded in Japan and two have been noted in the U.S., according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

    U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood confirmed this morning that federal regulators are investigating Prius brakes in addition to their general probe about whether electronics – and not just pedal design – could be the root of the automaker’s unintended acceleration recall.

    Apple co-founder speaks out about Prius accelerator
    Steve Wozniak, co-founder of Apple, says that his 2010 Prius experiences an unintended acceleration issue that he says is related to the vehicle’s drive-by-wire software, not the actual physical pedal.

    “Toyota has this accelerator problem we’ve all heard about,” Wozniak said on Monday during a conference. “Well, I have many models of Prius that got recalled, but I have a new model that didn’t get recalled. This new model has an accelerator that goes wild, but only under certain conditions of cruise control. And I can repeat it over and over and over again – safely. This is software. It’s not a bad accelerator pedal. It’s very scary, but luckily for me, I can hit the brakes.”

    Wozniak says that, when using the cruise control to increase his Prius’ speed, the car would continue to accelerate on its own until he hit the brakes.

    Wozniak has loaned his Prius to Toyota engineers, who will evaluate the car for a week to track down a problem.
  • topgun7topgun7 Posts: 409
    And electronic is being investigate as another possible cause of the WOT problem as well..

    http://www.leftlanenews.com/feds-investigate-toyota-electronics-for-unintended-a- cceleration.html

    Feds investigate Toyota electronics for unintended acceleration
    02/03/2010, 3:11 AMBy Mark Kleis
    Not long after the dust seemingly settled on the investigation of the faulty pedals and floor mats causing unintended acceleration in millions of Toyotas, a new report is suggesting that the U.S. Department of Transportation is now looking into a possible electronics-based problem as another possible source of unintended acceleration. The unofficial investigation stems from the several cases of apparent unintended acceleration that have been documented without floor mats or pedals at fault.

    Although the D.O.T., nor the National Highway Safety Transportation Safety Administration have formally launched an investigation into the possibility of a third source of unintended acceleration causes in Toyota vehicles, an anonymous source within the D.O.T. has reportedly confirmed that the third cause is in fact being considered.

    Leftlane reported on January 15th that a Toyota Avalon owner had experienced unintended acceleration without a floor mat installed, and even managed to get the vehicle to a Toyota dealer with the vehicle still pegged at wide open throttle.

    Upon arriving at the dealership, a Toyota mechanic was able to test the accelerator pedal’s range of movement with no affect on the throttle being applied by the engine. This incident seemed to have displayed the type of occurrence that is now reportedly being investigated.

    The news that federal officials are looking into other possible causes for unintended acceleration may spawn new meaning to the quote Leftlane reported in a separate story earlier today, “We’re not finished with Toyota and are continuing to review possible defects and monitor the implementation of the recalls,” said Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood.

    When asked about the possibility of vehicle electronics playing a role in unintended acceleration cases, John Hanson, a Toyota spokesman, said he knew little about the expanded federal investigation.

    Brian Lyons, a safety and quality communications manager for Toyota said, “We will continue to cooperate fully with NHTSA on all vehicle safety issues.”
  • Does anyone know how many actual complaints have been filed with the NHTSA about the Toyota gas pedal/sudden acceleration issue? And, what is the incidence of the problem? In other words, how many of the cars in question have actually exhibited, or are suspected to have exhibited, the problem or failure compared to the total universe of those cars in service.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Yes, unfortunately law suits become part of it all - some justified & some are not. 19 deaths and all the accidents - complaints - news media releases, high consumer internet use - etc. - issue has exploded.

    CNN - just now LaHood changes advice. Seems like he now advises owners to call, get fixed ASAP. Still not certain how he addressed this "stop driving" advice he already gave? If he did, or he purposely avoided?

    I own a Toyota and only recently joined to try to stayed informed. Have researched extensively. I do have one advantage understanding UA - my son does auto development/engineering computer software. He has helped me tremendously.

    I had mentioned several times I had concerns no "lid" immediately put on this. Now we have what seems to be "turf protection" of all involved. Difficulty for consumers is - what is full truth?

    UA has not been effectively handled for years by many manufacturers, DHSTA, etc. Some auto manufactuers have and their complaints now low. Then we have those who rise above others- over the years. This is not just a Toyota issue, but Toyota has purportedly 40% of all complaints. Ford, Chrysler, and ? appear to have more complaints too. Poor consumers don't even have accurate numbers of complaints - no official law mandated data base. Some complaints are at DHSTA, some Toyota, some with news. etc.

    Is news media pressure good?? Yes, maybe it can be. Consumers may see DHSTA and all/slow to implement systems auto manufacturers finally do something about UA & it's risks. Has been present for many, many years.

    UA in and of itself is huge human safety risk. Incidents do seem small when you compare to total number of autos sold. But high human safety risk should make/makes this complaint a top priority. Not only that - this includes issues risk exposure for costs vehicle damage, increased insurance costs, loss of salary, injury or even death as result of any accident, costs of any needed medical care,effect on DMV record. etc. I am an RN, my husband was CEO of ambulance company and past California EMS commisioner, my son is also an MD. Each of us have seen first hand what can happen to people in auto accidents.

    I am sure you want human safety risks decreased. All of us do. I don't care if we own a BMW, Ford, Porsche, GM, Chrysler, Honda, etc. Safety first.

    I realize many will say - well it's the owners. Human error should always be factored into development of auto systems for safety. We are all human, make mistakes, and statistics show humans react differently in emergency situations. I am sure most people feel for those poor people that have had this emergency situation. Smile - this is USA and we do have big hearts.

    And there is a way to implement a brake override system to control UA issue - brake and acceleration in conflict. Brakes win. Acceleration forced back to idle.

    Now everyone says - difficult. Each year auto manufacturer engineers develop/do engineering for each new model. They already have engineers that do all of this, and yes, it can undeniably be done. This can be added to older recall models as well. Once developed cost to Toyota would be minimal. Toyta owns the computer programs. Overhead cost is low. Computer flashing.

    I am hoping I hear more positive news releases. Hope to see Toyota get more proactive now.

    Since my vehicle is not in recall, Will I ask if I can get brake override system update? Sure plan to. Even if I have to pay for it.
  • I hope you will have the decency to highlight the secretary's retraction of that misquoted statement?

    but then, I am not holding my breath either, :)
  • on the basis that he is from the government, your right strategy would have been to discount, HEAVILY, whatever he said.

    that would have been the winning strategy for you.
  • jdm9jdm9 Posts: 38
    Does anyone know if any of the people involved in accidents they claimed were the result of uncontrollable acceleration respond by trying to shut the motor off or place the transmission in nuetral or did they just panic and stomp wildly on unresponsive brakes until they crashed? Could anyone direct me to a site that has documented these peoples experiences?
  • please, why would you inject facts and rationale into a mass hysteria?

    :)
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