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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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  • juxtojuxto Posts: 16
    I've been reading this toyota thing for some time here. I was in the market to replace my 2000 accord (110k miles) and the 2010 6 cyl XLE camry was the car of my choice (never another honda, but that's a different story). My father-in-law passed away and my mother-in-law wanted to trade me her very nice 2002 taurus (DOHC 6 cyl loaded SES with about 50k miles on it) for the honda. She doesn't drive much and wanted a smaller car that didn't remind her of him. So I searched the web for 2002 taurus problems and it seems ford did recalls on the taurus through 2001 for coil springs that were suddenly breaking and flattening tires. It appears the problem continues through the 2002 model, but that it was not included in the recall. My point? The thought of a potential coil spring breaking bothers me enough that I'm going to pass on it. I don't want to be wondering if/when it will happen. I don't want it in the back of my mind every time I get in the car. I believe the same will likely be true for many toyota owners. They'll be wondering if/when for them. They'll be wondering if the problem has really been resolved, if it can recur, etc. I think future car buyers will also have this in the back of their heads. Not just the problem with the car, but the way toyota has dealt with it. To me it's been a "sneaky" way of doing business - one which tells me it is not a company I want to be associated with.
  • All Toyota did was put a shim behind the pedal where the spring is located. They did nothing else. No ECU or ECM adjustments or flash. They did just the shim.
    I was told that there might be a new gas pedal assembly coming, but they don't know when. So right now, I don't know whether or not there will be any other recal repairs for the gas pedal on my Camry? Only time will tell.
    Other than that, my vehicle is running fine from what I can see. I got it to drive it and that's what I intend to do. I am not worried about the car. It's been very reliable so far. :)
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    have figured out how to putting fuel in an engine & and stopping the fuel-flow, so complicated! :P :P

    Pedals with complicated motions, pedals too close together, can't figure out how to keep a mat in place, all sorts of sensors and computers needed to put the gas in the engine, when someone was able to do it in a Model T. Whatever problem or problems drivers are having, theses are ridiculous to have.

    Congrats to all the electrical, software, and design engineers out there involved in making products like this!

    This goes out to all auto manufacturers. Make the products simpler, less costly, and without all these systems that can fail and need costly repair.
  • lzclzc Posts: 483
    >>This goes out to all auto manufacturers. Make the products simpler, less costly, and without all these systems that can fail and need costly repair.

    Practically speaking, the only way to do this--and meet emissions and mileage requirements--would be to reduce engine size drastically. Few Americans want to drive a car with 1.2L engine.

    The complex electronics on modern cars are necessary to reduce weight, improve mileage, clean up the exhaust, and still give Americans the size car and power they want.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,160
    gtg....that's good news. Glad things seem to be "OK" and you have this behind you.

    There may be a silver lining here. That is, I bet every other manufacturer out there is testing and retesting their accelerator and brake hardware/firmware/software to make certain they don't suffer the same fate as Toyota is suffering.

    On a side note, the annual car show is coming up towards the end of this month in Cincinnati. I always attend. Wonder what Toyota/Lexus will be showing in their booths?

    Camry? Corolla? Prius? ES350?

    I'm sure it's too late to pull out of the show. But, I would think that the product mix is up to the manufacturers.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 28,056
    I think prototypes, future vehicles, upcoming models, etc.. might be up to the manufacturers, but our local show in Cincinnati is run by the GCADA, the local car dealer's association...

    For most of the makes, the local dealers supply the staffing and the vehicles..

    I doubt the local Toyota dealers would want to be left out.... or, to not show 70% of their model line-up, which will be back on sale at their dealerships, shortly..

    just my $0.02

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    Japanese Media Slam Toyota Chief for Crisis Responsee

    TOKYO — Japanese media sharply criticized Toyota's president Saturday for what they called a delayed and unconvincing explanation for the massive car recall that has sullied the world's biggest automaker, a Japanese corporate icon.

    Akio Toyoda, the founder's grandson appointed to lead Toyota Motor Corp. last June, emerged late Friday to apologize and address criticism that the company mishandled a crisis over sticking gas pedals. But he stopped short of ordering a recall for Toyota's iconic Prius hybrid over separate braking problems.

    Toyoda's appearance before reporters at a company office in the central Japanese city of Nagoya made front pages of the country's leading newspapers — but won no praise.

    "Words are not enough," the top Nikkei business daily commented in an editorial. "The company's crisis management ability is being subjected to severe scrutiny."
  • WOW! Toyota designed a Christine! And not just one! 6.5 Million!

    (Christine is a horror novel by Stephen King, published in 1983. It tells the story of a vintage automobile apparently possessed by supernatural forces.)

    Here is an article from an engineering perspective:

    'Toyota's latest woes may be hard-wired"

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10446502-64.html?tag=smallCarouselArea.2

    jd
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Obviously you have NEVER driven or worked on a model T.....

    So simple it needed CONSTANT, daily, maintainance
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    Model T owners carried a roll of bailing wire and channel lock pliers. I am sure a screwdriver was handy for adjusting the carb. It did put the horse and buggy out of business.
  • Not only are the ignition buttons (on certain Toyota models) unfamiliar to most US drivers, but isn't the 3 second delay a safety hazard in itself, when faced with an emergency???

    Think of how far one can travel in 3 seconds at 70 and/or 100 miles per hour! 3 seconds is an eternity.

    By contrast, the turning off of a normal key ignition switch can occur in less than a second.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,160
    Don't know why but it seems as if the "reply" button has disappeared on this thread.

    In any event, kyfdx....I've seen both dealer personnel and manufacturers' reps at our car show. I do agree, I don't think I'd want 70% of my model line up missing from the show floor.

    On the other hand, I don't know if I would want to answer the same tired questions over and over again as a Toyota rep on the show floor regarding brakes and UA, either.

    Maybe it would be a good chance for the Toyota people to "state their case" from their perspective, too.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    At 120 MPH that was reported in the fatal San Diego accident, that would be nearly two football fields to stop the engine. Then another football field to get it to stop with no assist. The answer to another of my questions never answered by the ToyLex faithful. What happens with electronic start stop when you do get it to work? Does that lock the steering wheel the same as turning the key all the way off? Will it even work at WOT going 120 MPH? Lexus has been very quiet throughout these last few months. Like they think they are above the fray. I can go along with blaming the dealer as my experience with them is far less than positive.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,098
    >reply button

    It's due to the 800 pixel wide picture of the RED Plymouth! B eautiful car.

    Post needed to have
    width="650" height="487" inserted before the final greater than sign after making it into an IMG file using the button. Keep the quote marks and just put a space before the word width.

    image
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    Glad to hear you got yours taken care of.

    I need to do the same, but last I checked with my dealer they were still waiting for the parts to come.
  • tomjavatomjava Posts: 136
    Car and Driver magazine did a test on camry brake travelling at 60mph and then at 120mph. In both intances the brake is able to stop camry without any problem. I amazed that this poor CHP fellow who has been trained extensively on how to use vehicle equipped with ABS or handle a blow out tire during highspeed chase or other emergency situation , did not stomp on the brake right away and shifted the gear to Neutral. RIP.
  • mnfmnf Posts: 404
    Thats great good to hear how long did it take for them to do the fix when it was in the shop. I take mine in next week it will be good to have peace of mind just the same. Dont let the sky is falling posts from some on here steer you away. Most of those trolls will move on to a differant crisis after the Toyota blood clears out of the water.

    Enjoy

    MNF
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Been awhile ago but I seem to remember that removing the spark plugs and cleaning them "daily" to prevent fouling on the next drive was SOP. Was it the model T that had the "spark box" or was that the model A..??
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    or other emergency situation , did not stomp on the brake right away and shifted the gear to Neutral.

    Aren't the automatic transmission and ABS electronic. What's your expertise to think they are stand alone systems, such that the circuits for those don't go thru the same computer-board as that ECU (or whatever the problem is).

    You are assuming the brake control and transmission control still function, when the problem creates UA.

    I would think that because a trained driver such as a state trooper, can't stop, that that is a good indicator that the brakes pedals and transmission lever are electronically dead in that scenario.

    Maybe you missed my prior posts on this issue, since there are so many posts each day. So I'll repeat:

    The best way to stop a machine from operating is to shutoff it's energy source - whether that be gasoline, electricity, or pressurized air. You'd prefer NOT to rely on electronics to perform the shutoffs. Good shutoffs would be a normally-closed (spring-loaded) valve in the fuel-line, or a physical disconnection of the battery. In a vehicle it would be preferable to stop the fuel supply to the engine, and allow the battery to still provide energy to other systems such as lights.

    Probably someone could make a fortune, designing (patent?) a fuel-line valve that is connected to a rod that goes up thru the vehicle floor and is connected to a big push-button next to the shifter. The driver pushes down on the button, the valve snaps shut, the engine sputters and the driver pulls over. Anyone does it, I'd appreciate a few %. :D
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Thanks for providing this good link. I do like the detailed engineers explanation how drive by wire electronic throttles work. How our foot pressure on the pedal application is actually controlled by computer sensors telling our autos how much to accelerate. Some may say/argue he might be biased, but fact is explanation is quite good. That alone makes article excellent for us. Personal opinion - one of better ones I have read.

    Then I seem to question why DHTSA and some auto manufacturers who also have higher complaints when compared to all manufacturers have not addressed while others have? Seemed some of those who have addressed have installed brake override systems as last resort fail safe. Many European auto manufacturers have. When I spoke with my son that was first things he asked - do I have brake override?
    I was quite ignorant, and didn't know. Sure found out quickly Toyota does not have.

    I have just not researched all the manufacturers that have few complaints to actually see if they have brake override systems. Most average knowledged owners are not even aware of these systems.

    DHTSA does not presently require auto manufacturers to have these systems. But still seems enough manufacturers have implemented these systems. Those who have incidents are now low.

    Incidents numbers may seem small, but deaths have occurred (number is also debatable and what DHTSA has reported and what outside safety agencies claim do differ- which is correct?- not an expert to evaluate who telling truth). .

    Fact is our autos are full of computers now. We all know the more complex all products are that we buy will/can increase the statistcal incidents for repair, problems, or breakdown.

    I have taken it upon myself to try to learn since this started. Below is a link for Toyota UA timeline. Thought was good and does appear to match other reports I have read and bookmarked. Only keep going back to this site as seems best complete documentation I can presently find. Other sites documentation seem not as good.Could they be biased - yes- don't know for sure - they are a consultant type agency advocating consumer protection, for attorneys, appear to do investigations, etc. Still they are quoted frequently.

    http://www.safetyresearch.net/toyota-sudden-unintended-

    Appears this sad deadly accident has been the most influential "final straw that breaks camels back" leading to where we are now.
    (1) San Diego veteran CHP officer and family killed in a loaner from Toyota Dealership while their Toyota model was being repaired - - August 28, 2009 - model crashed Lexus ES350 - Toyota says floor mat issue- DHTSA says floor mat -

    NOTE - DHTSA doesn't include this accident in their UA statistical death stats. ????

    NOTE REFER BACK TO TOYOTA UA TIMELINE - SEE EARLIER COMPLAINTS LEXUS ES MODELS - ES350 - TOYOTA AND NHTSA - NOTE TIMELINE - EARLIER TO PRESENT. floor mats
    keep getting blamed alot - were to be re-designed. several years ago - if issue blamed earlier and addressed why does it continue being blamed by Toyota & DHTSA - how can floor mat design problems continue when a dealer has had prior recalls. Corporate QA should have addressed/eliminated any/all issues any future floor mat design interference, etc. problems. Just some my
    personal observations and questions I have. Quality Assurance - should be. .Most of us were unaware of how long existed, past decisions, etc.

    Where does Toyota announcing November, 2009 they will install brake override sytems on all models 2011 fit into all of this????
    This statement came after floor mat recall October, 2009, and before pedal recall December, 2009 . Then rumors/reports exist elsewhere some recall models will receive these flashes for brake override but not all recall models. Rumors 2010 models will have now too? Have seen some reports/individuals questioning if Toyota will secretly/quietly flash the brake overrride systems update into all models if they are brought in for service?

    This brake override announcement by Toyata is great. I do want. But I still seem to question the CONFLICT to Toyota statements no problem with electronics exist. Brake Override systems will take away problem with electronic bugs. When Brakes & acceleration in conflict brakes win. Toyota Electronic bugs dealt with. Is this to eliminate cause? Eliminate what they don't know? Part of Toyota and DHTSA agreement to make both appear good in the end?? Both can make claims "total success" in a year?? Both can save face???

    Any comments to above paragraph questions???

    Lots still unraveling. Am trying to not be anti-Toyota or pro-Toyota. I am actually more pro-Toyota as I have a Toyota. I am rooting for them. But I still need to look at any information I can find. Lots of questions & will eventually form my own opinion. Just as each of us will.

    All of you are great. Appreciate your comments and help since I have starting blogging here.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,627
    CR had some trouble getting a Venza to stop from 60. Maybe it was the second time.
    The increasing speed could have snuck up on the CHP officer. If he tried to slow the car down first, then jam the brakes, it could have been too late.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    I can most definitely see where you are coming from.

    CHP noted in their report - link posted earlier by someone - no on dash instructions for this "push and hold 3 seconds" in emergency to kill engine. This statement rings loud and clear. Seems they may have also omitted some other safety issues with this push button ignition type system present on this auto.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,627
    i will bet from now on, all cars with a push button ignition will have a mandatory little sticker on the sun visor. :sick:
  • lzclzc Posts: 483
    >>This brake override announcement by Toyata is great. I do want.

    Depending on which Toyota you own, maybe you already have the override. From today's NY Times:

    "The company will install a brake override system on the affected Camry, Avalon, and Lexus ES 350, IS 350 and IS 250. This system cuts engine power in case the accelerator and brake pedals are applied at the same time. The system already exists on the Prius and other hybrids.
  • as i seeing this problem with toyota..and someone is blaming now a car softwares and some of them are saying about a gas pedal..what i realize..that those people are lieng..they are just jealous..because imports are ruling the world..no matter where u are in the world..you can see more imports on the road that a usa cars..because imports are the best cars..for american people to beat the import cars than they need good engine..and better graphical artist who are creating a cars i mean who are getting ideas of how car can look like..buick stole the styling of a two cars..lexus and mazda..front of a buick and rear are from a lezus..tail lights are same as mazda...gm..ford..and cadillac..they are all junky cars..i would never buy a usa cars..they are known as a problem makers..if i have chance to choose from audi a8l and pontiac g8..i would be choosing audi..imports rock..so people who are having toyota do not lie about that toyota has a problems..that information is a fake..and somebody one day will pay big time for a lieng and making toyotas hard game..less problems imports has and high problems usa cars making...so who ever have the usa car..throw that cars in garbage..and get something better as a acura tl..
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,627
    I love your post. It was so funny! :shades:
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    Is that you Mr. Toyoda? We saw you driving an Audi at the summit in Davos Switzerland. Good choice much better than Lexus, that go crazy and kill people.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    A better way, method, would be to have an electronics module "watching" the brake fluid pressure and the throttle position sensor(s). If the brake pressure goes above a certain threshold and the throttle sensor isn't near idle then OPEN the EFI ground return circuit.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Why is it that only DBW gas pedals are subject to the floor mat problem.., couldn't a "hard-wired" gas pedal have the very same problem...??

    And assuming so why have we never heard anything of that nature...??

    Why is this subject coming up only now...??
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,908
    I think the NHTSA has complaints on UA since DBW was first introduced by Toyota. Toyota dealers would claim all is working as it should and the NHTSA chose not to do extensive research. Over 2000 complaints filed with NHTSA over the last decade. It looks like it was always assumed it was driver error. No way to prove otherwise. One case even got the driver prosecuted for manslaughter in memory serves me. He claimed the car took off and eventually ran into another car killing the driver of that car. My understanding is that lawsuit is back on the docket. It seems the courts and the NHTSA sided with Toyota even though they had more complaints on Toyota UA than all other automakers combined. DBW as you well know is anything but simple. The more complex the more possible bugs.
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