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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Kristie

    Do you know why Toyota announced recall for pedal fix, but no stop sales on a Thursday??? No repair was available when this particular recall announced. Yikes - is against law to sell known defective autos off lots. Who, why, etc. got it right, realized - & five days later stop sales finally announced??

    Do you know what happened here??? Maybe you have some info to help clarify for us???
  • I don't think injecting facts and rationale into this discussion is helpful at all, :)

    seriously, I like the title of the article, "Toyota Recall: Scandal, Media Circus, and Stupid Drivers"

    and also this line: "Our own instrumented testing determined that you can safely brake a car from highway speed, even with the throttle pegged."

    I remember reading assertions by "experts" here that those german cars (BMW, MB and VW in particular) have this "brake override" feature. Well, my tests on my own cars (BMW and Infiniti) suggested otherwise, and my recollection of driving my MB as well. I have been fortunate enough so that I don't have to own a VW so you have to wait for that confirmation.

    what it tells all of us is that the internet's greatest strength is also its greatest weakness: by empowering everyone, the internet also empowers monkeys with keyboards.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,890
    No, unfortunately my crystal ball was confiscated (unfairly, I might add), leaving me with no special insight on the matter. I'm just a wandering host here - not an industry insider!

    MODERATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • maple2maple2 Posts: 177
    Yikes - is against law to sell known defective autos off lots. Who, why, etc. got it right, realized - & five days later stop sales finally announced??


    Careful, some people around here still think that toyota voluntarily, out of concern for human life, stopped building and selling those deathtraps. ;)
  • lzclzc Posts: 483
    Wow! Thanks for posting. Car and Driver gets an A+ for politically incorrect bravery. I doubted any public entity would defend Toyota and suggest the unthinkable, driver error is the likely culprit.

    And (what a concept!) quantifying the odds of occurrence. Who would think to point out that the odds of UA are exceeded many times by all kinds of activities we think nothing about doing. Certainly not most of the media.

    The article's mocking tone will turn off some people, but it's just the reverse of those who gleefully dance on this hysterical public relations disaster for Toyota.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Tomjava,

    Thanks for the links. I particularly liked this auto comparison demonstration for stopping auto at full throttle. Different autos used this time when compared to Consumer Reports auto demo. Good.
    And higher speed demonstrated. They must have been at a track to conduct.

    Other article is good for review too. Smile - he is critical of drivers it seems. What can be called human error factors. Great for my collection of articles - as I reveiw all. Seems to analyze other issues as well. Sort of states it as it is - how he sees Toyotas.

    Hope other bloggers are evaluating.

    Thanks. Helpful.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Part of government. New reports - President Obama has increased funding for NHTSA in next budget. Have read they may hire 66 more investigators. Reports their budget had been kept same for a few/several years. I can not factually verify reports though.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Here is link that will help address question who is NHTSA. Go to section "Who are We?" - then can download pdf file to see complete answer. Etc.

    http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/menuitem.416f74e861399238160103104610- 8a0c/
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Thanks for your response. Couldn't understand why the pedal recall and no stop sales were not done same day, especially since selling
    any defective models on dealers lots illegal. Big whoops!.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Dealers have pedal fixes now, so legally when fixed autos can be sold & have seen some news reports some are being sold now.

    Against law for dealer to sell known defective autos not fixed off lots.

    § 573.11 Prohibition on sale or lease of new defective and noncompliant motor vehicles and items of replacement equipment.

    (a) If notification is required by an order under 49 U.S.C. 30118(b) or is required under 49 U.S.C. 30118(c) and the manufacturer has provided to a dealer (including retailers of motor vehicle equipment) notification about a new motor vehicle or new item of replacement equipment in the dealer’s possession, including actual and constructive possession, at the time of notification that contains a defect related to motor vehicle safety or does not comply with an applicable motor vehicle safety standard issued under 49 CFR part 571, the dealer may sell or lease the motor vehicle or item of replacement equipment only if:

    (1) The defect or noncompliance is remedied as required by 49 U.S.C. 30120 before delivery under the sale or lease; or

    (2) When the notification is required by an order under 49 U.S.C. 30118(b), enforcement of the order is restrained or the order is set aside in a civil action to which 49 U.S.C. 30121(d) applies.

    (b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not prohibit a dealer from offering the vehicle or equipment for sale or lease, provided that the dealer does not sell or lease it.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Yikes hope I am not in trouble for this?? Was just fact I had read researching from multiple different sources. I didn't understand.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,018
    I have not seen any official report stating the shim fix will get Toyota off the hook. Only an anonymous someone at the NHTSA said it should be a go. I think Toyota has to come up with a better fix than that. But I am not making the decision. That would be the Federal Government that forced Toyota to quit selling vehicles in the first place. I am waiting for the recall on the Throttle body failure that caused UA for the well publicized Toyota driven to the dealers with a WOT. A shim would not have fixed that failure. Of course the Federal Government is shut down due to GW causing heavy snowfall in DC. So we will have to wait until the NHTSA gets back up to speed, if they ever do.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,250
    > I particularly liked this auto comparison demonstration for stopping auto at full throttle.

    I didn't catch that CD let up on the brake and then pressed it again, all the while holding the throttle open. And repeating the way a scared driver might do. Most of us have learned to drive where pumping the brakes helped boost the fluid used by a bad master cylinder. Or pumping worked on ice. That lowers the booster assist to the brakes and then the driver can't apply enough force to overcome the motor.
  • "§ 573.11 Prohibition..."

    so, in plain English, what does that mean?

    :)
  • "a scared driver might do."

    you meant "an incompetent driver" instead?

    that's Darwinism at work. and that's how we have evolved over the last billions of years.

    and we will continue to do that, stupidity not withstanding.
  • "(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not prohibit a dealer from offering the vehicle or equipment for sale or lease, provided that the dealer does not sell or lease it."

    so basically a dealer can sell or lease a defective vehicle unless s/he doesn't sell or lease it.

    I love those lawyers, :).
  • tomjavatomjava Posts: 136
    Again, nowadays almost all modern cars equipped with Anti Braking System (ABS). With ABS, never ever pump the brake period. I bet most drivers will panic when ABS is on, and blame the car when accident happens. :sick:
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,250
    >you meant "an incompetent driver" instead?

    I don't think most people involved in the runaway acceleration and the parking accelerations are incompetent. When things happened unexpected and happen quickly, people don't have time to think about what to do.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,018
    you meant "an incompetent driver" instead?

    I would say designing a braking system that goes against tried and true braking practices makes the auto engineers the ones that are incompetent. This whole UA with Toyota is the first time I have seen any reference to cars only capable of one or two pumps on the brake before they are depleted. That to me is a design problem not a driver problem. Drivers that were trained 40-50-60 or more years ago will pump the brakes in an emergency to NOT lock them up. Changing designs without massive retraining becomes a liability to those that make the changes. It would be interesting how the courts would see that issue.

    PS
    Evidently the CHP officer in the runaway ES350 was trained to pump the brakes as I was.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    The brakes do not fail as a result of applying and releasing several times, you "simply" lose the brake boost assist unless the engine intake manifold vacuum can be used to replenish the boost.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,250
    Not sure if I'm off point on what people mean..., but take your car and drive along at 60. Turn the ignition key to the Off position without locking the column. Of course, pick somewhere with no other cars around.

    Then start pushing the brake pedal down to lightly engage. Then let up. Repeat the push. See how many it takes before the pedal pressure has increased greatly.

    Or you can kill the source of vacuum by accelerating at full throttle and the vacuum in the motor drops to 1 or 2 psi unless you've got a restrictive air cleaner. If you do this test at full throttle I suggest having an uphill section so the car doesn't build up too much steam and you're a danger or receive a ticket.
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    And I think gagrice was questioning why you would design a system that relied on intake manifold vacuum. Why couldn't the brake system be powered by the engine, and if you lost the engine, say as we're talking about turning the key; well there's still a large battery there.

    The battery could be used for minutes to provide energy to the braking system, to run any sort of vacuum pump or hydraulic pump necessary, to brake to a stop.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,250
    >And I think gagrice was questioning why you would design a system that relied on intake manifold vacuum. Why couldn't the brake system be powered by the engine, and if you lost the engine, say as we're talking about turning the key; well there's still a large battery there.

    In the old days, the vacuum powered windshield wipers. And as soon as the throttle plate opened to accelerate gently or harder, the wipers slowed or stopped.

    So, they came up with a vacuum pump coupled with the fuel pump which supplemented the engine's low vacuum when the throttle plate was opened.

    Put an electric vacuum pump in series with the engine vacuum line to the brake booster.

    Or use an electric pump for hydraulic brakes.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,018
    It all has to do with getting by as cheaply as possible. I think several have commented on the fit finish and overall quality of the 1990s Toyotas compared to the last 5 years. The newer ones are bigger and faster. And sometimes too fast for their own brakes.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Sorry you know me I will always advocate safety. Human error is always present and should/must be factored/considered when safety device discussions undertaken for laws. People react differently during emergencies. And as humans we all make mistakes. Etc. .

    Won't get into many of the reasons and findings as think I have posted many before. 19 deaths & # accidents seem to indicate some action needed..This Car and Driver article suggested driver error, other auto sites have have supported computer bugs, some take great care to be careful. I somehow see this as one more theory to save to my long list of bookmarks. Will be interesting to see..

    Reference to number of incidents. I thought that has been addressed/reported all along? But don't forget actual numbers are confusing - all over and no required data base. Some at NHTSA, Dealers, news media, safety sites, etc. Have seen some people don't know where to even lodge complaints, and state they could not get through to Toyota. They were using news blogs to complain.

    Sure is not just Toyota - thats a definite. What I find interesting is
    fact some of others with higher complaints aren't addressed as well.

    Good to hear what you are saying. Yes, I felt this guy was mocking that people were cause. Whoops not good as he wrote & is now documented.
  • mnfmnf Posts: 404
    Just Rented a Toyota RV4 in Portland Oregon from Dollar Sunday they also had a Camry in the row next to me. Maybe its just in some areas BTW nice rig rode nice lots of pep ZOOM ZOOM oops thats Mazda :P

    MNF
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    This is just a copy of what the law is.

    Prohibition
    Definition: a decree that prohibits something. Smile - and is referencing alcohol.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Sorry I have always backed off, and then gently apply once again to handle slick, etc roads. I live in California now, but Nebraska roads - lots of ice. And I don't do what I would actually call pumping. I have had anti- lock brakes for over ten plus years. Does take good common sense and keep speed appropriate to conditions Works fine for me. Lots of bad road conditions, and I do drive alot. No accidents.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Izc

    So you have had same experience with some owner/s. I spoke with another neighbor that has Lexus and Camry. He had heard, but hadn't investigated, wasn't real concerned. Sad they have had no problems. And he is attorney.
  • Interesting comments from you and lzc. After reading the 1000+ posts on this thread, and viewing numerous other threads, I have come to some conclusions:

    1.There is some possibility of a stuck throttle, but the corrective fix is ongoing at my local dealer. I believe that a throttle assembly that could stick will give you warning by changes in "pedal feel", etc. if you are paying attention to your vehicle.

    2.There is a SLIGHT possibility of UA because the vehicle speed is computer controlled. Someone calculated the incident rate at 1 in 50,000-60,000 vehicles, against the odds of being murdered at 1 in 18,000. I think that makes my
    Avalon fairly safe. The possibility of my home computer doing something stupid is way greater than either of these numbers.

    3.The best thing learned from all this is that all of us now know how to deal with UA if it happens. I might have thought about turning the key off, but I would probably have pumped the brakes with the intent of making the vehicle stop sooner, and I doubt if I would have thought about putting the vehicle in neutral.

    4. The floor mat issue is a joke, and not even worthy of conversation if you have properly hooked factory mats. I have seen vehicles where you could not even see the floor mats for the debris on the floor. Drivers must assume some responsibility for their safety.

    I will take my vehicle to my local dealer when the frenzy settles,and probably get the accelerator "shim", and hopefully get the computer reflashed for brake override. I will refuse to let the dealer GRIND AWAY part of my accelerator pedal. If new pedals become available, I might consider that. I intend to keep driving my 2007 Avalon for several more years.
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