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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Thanks, was excellent article. Seems UA proof established. Good auto repair did not release vehicle, & insurance company most likely involved as well. Huge liability issue if they did.

    Noticed Orange County - that is where my son lives,
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    No key to turn the car off either?
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    As an owner who has gone with a "Power Button" car since 2006, I can tell you I DO NOT MISS having a key.

    I'm all for power buttons in cars.

    Helps the theft rate too.
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    Toyota masking an even bigger, more widespread issue with steering, braking, accelerator electronics, which it looks like they may be doing.

    This could potentially cause a recall of every make, brand and model they've produced, over several years. That, even though it's the right thing to do to protect owners and operators of their vehicles, might be something they'd be very unwilling to undertake unless absolutely forced to.


    Couldn't have said it any better.
  • oparroparr Posts: 64
    Just out of curiosity. Who do you think is lying here?

    I think the situation is overblown too. Sure there are defective Toyotas out there, fortunately, mine is not one of them so far. Also, I don't believe sudden unintended acceleration is a problem unique to Toyotas. Neither do I believe it is a problem inherent in any make of car.

    Toyota should have learned from Audi's debacle. So should have the NHTSA. You don't put DBW in a car without brake override. You don't allow those cars on your highways. End of story.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Gotta love the honesty of The Greatest Generation. Kudos to him, glad he's O.K.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    News publicity is widespread and they do have blogs. There are few new complaints lodged on blogs, as they have had difficulty getting through to Toyota. Some have never lodged a complaaint.

    Who is telling truth? Think all in article are telling truth, except we have no comments from Toyota. My guess is - since publicity issue will be addressed.

    I will not criticize the media whoopla. This can prove to be beneficial for owners/consumers and Toyota. This happens all the time - modern day technology. But I do feel Toyota did not handle crisis well. Too slow to react.
  • lzclzc Posts: 483
    >>But, only true if Toyota isn't masking an even bigger, more widespread issue with steering, braking, accelerator electronics, which it looks like they may be doing.

    You make it sound as if Toyotas are potential death traps. Is every complaint valid, while the experience of millions of satisfied owners invalid? One can never prove a negative, which is about what Toyota is being asked to do today.

    The idea that Toyota would, if ever, but especially at this time, mask, hide, or in anyway push off solving this problem boggles the mind. What have they to gain? Are they masochists?
  • lzclzc Posts: 483
    >>Too slow to react.

    To do what? Solve a problem they had not, and still haven't, identified? We don't know what exactly Toyota did. They may have spent thousands of hours of engineering time trying to discover the problem. They may have spent zero hours. None of us knows.

    What we do know is that they are recalling 2.3 million cars to fix sticky accelerator pedals that have drawn exactly 20 complaints, and been connected to exactly zero accidents. They are recalling millions of cars to "fix" a floor mat problem that's only a problem when one misuses the mats.

    Just about everything else is speculation.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Unfortunately Toyota is getting the heat. But they do have 40% of all manufacturers complaints. They also have more deaths than all manufacturers added together. Facts do reveal why they are presently in hot seat. And the San Diego crash of a Lexus - that was most influential incident leading to where Toyota is at present.

    Other certain manufacturers should take heed - clean their own house. They could be next.

    I too hope NHTSA demonstrates more clout than they have over past few years. Appears they may have budget difficulty conducting thorough intensive investigations needed for modern day technology.. Saw report they claimed being understaffed and stretched.

    I don't mind the huge news media publicity. Sometimes needed to keep government and corporations a little more honest. These auto manufaturers each spend millions lobbying lawmakers, donating to their campaigns, etc. Some of the lawmakers on the investigative committees that will be addressing Toyota investigation are supportive of Toyota as have plants in their districts. DHTSA head was held up for this administration due to partisan political stances taken. DHTSA is agency - part of government. That is just government in action.

    Brake override is a must these days..
  • tomjavatomjava Posts: 136
    That's your theory! Every one becomes an expert because of the internet.

    Read C&D article for a real test on pinned gas pedal and brake. http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_accelerati- on-tech_dept
    ......
    Hit the Brakes

    Certainly the most natural reaction to a stuck-throttle emergency is to stomp on the brake pedal, possibly with both feet. And despite dramatic horsepower increases since C/D’s 1987 unintended-acceleration test of an Audi 5000, brakes by and large can still overpower and rein in an engine roaring under full throttle. With the Camry’s throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet—that’s a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry’s throttle closed. From 100 mph, the stopping-distance differential was 88 feet—noticeable to be sure, but the car still slowed enthusiastically enough to impart a feeling of confidence. We also tried one go-for-broke run at 120 mph, and, even then, the car quickly decelerated to about 10 mph before the brakes got excessively hot and the car refused to decelerate any further. So even in the most extreme case, it should be possible to get a car’s speed down to a point where a resulting accident should be a low-speed and relatively minor event.



    But Toyota could do better. Since the advent of electronic throttle control, many automakers have added software to program the throttle to close—and therefore cut power—when the brakes are applied. Cars from BMW, Chrysler, Nissan/Infiniti, Porsche, and Volkswagen/Audi have this feature, and that’s precisely why the G37 aced this test. Even with the throttle floored and the vehicle accelerating briskly, stabbing the brakes causes the engine’s power to fade almost immediately, and as a result, the Infiniti stops in a hurry. From speeds of 70 or even 100 mph, the difference in braking results between having a pinned throttle or not was fewer than 10 feet, which isn’t discernible to the average driver. As a result of the unintended-acceleration investigation, Toyota is adding this feature posthaste.

    We included the powerful Roush Mustang to test—in the extreme—the theory that “brakes are stronger than the engine.” From 70 mph, the Roush’s brakes were still resolutely king even though a pinned throttle added 80 feet to its stopping distance. However, from 100 mph, it wasn’t clear from behind the wheel that the Mustang was going to stop. But after 903 feet—almost three times longer than normal—the 540-hp supercharged Roush finally did succumb, chugging to a stop in a puff of brake smoke.

    Shift to Neutral or Park

    This is your best option in an emergency. Neither the Camry’s nor the Infiniti’s automatic transmission showed any hesitancy to shift into neutral or park when accelerating at full tilt. (Automatics have a piece of hardware called a park pawl, which prevents the transmission from actually engaging park and locking the wheels at speed—it creates a disturbing grinding sound, but the car essentially coasts freely.) The Roush had a manual, so you’d simply depress the clutch. In either case, power is effectively kept from the wheels and the car will be able to brake with its usual undiminished vigor, engine racing or not.

    Turn It Off

    Switching off the ignition is a sure way to silence an engine, but it’s probably the least desirable action because it will also make the car more difficult to maneuver. It causes a loss of power-steering assist, plus it will cut off vacuum boost for the brakes. The new wrinkle here: the keyless, push-button start-and-stop systems in many vehicles. Owners need to be aware that these systems require a long press of the button to shut off power when the car is moving (so that an inadvertent touch of the button by the driver doesn’t kill the engine). Here, too, the Toyota was slightly behind the curve; the Infiniti’s engine shut down after a 2.5-second press of the button versus 3.3 seconds for the Camry. In an emergency, that would probably feel like an eternity. For some perspective, if a V-6 Camry’s throttle became stuck at 60 mph, the car would accelerate to nearly 80 mph before the engine would surrender.

    Furthermore, short, frantic pressing of the Toyota’s start/stop button—the probable response in an emergency—does nothing, whereas the Infiniti kills the engine after three rapid-fire presses.

    Conclusion

    In the end, though, we found no major deficiencies with the Camry’s ability to defuse an unintended-acceleration situation. But the No. 1 automaker could learn a few lessons from the competition here—namely a throttle cutoff and a more responsive push-button ignition.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,458
    lzc...asked this question before. What's acceptable as a result of Toyota's UA, braking, steering issues? 1 death? 2 deaths? 200 deaths? How about accidents, where someone was injured....how many of those are acceptable? What's the magic number?

    Why would they mask, hide, deflect, deny, not disclose details that have come out from other sources (i.e. State Farm)?

    As expensive as it is to recall 8.5 million vehicles worldwide (at last count, $2B and climbing), it would be absolutely astronomical if they had to recall every make (Toyota, Lexus, Scion), and every model, that incorporates their accelerator, braking and steering electronics because of undisclosed glitches.

    Don't get me wrong. I want them to right the ship. I have friends' whose livelihood depends on it. Only way I see that happening is for them to be completely open and honest (which you can tell, not many of us believe they have been, based on the depth and scope of reports by people, agencies, companies, both private and public).

    Toyota's well past the point of saying "prove to us it is our problem". They're now knee deep in the "we have to prove it isn't our problem" as they're about to be hauled before Federal Safety regulators and Congress. I don't believe they can.
  • nimiminimimi Posts: 249
    Please post the data and the source of the data for the "40% of all" complaints and "more deaths than all manufacturers added together."
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Too slow comment- -

    When all started Toyota had no immediate reaction. Should have torn band aide off immediately. Situation has been a drip-drip-drip-drip. They should have been very proactive containing rumors, speculation, apprehensive on internet sites also posting announcement,, and possibly have expert Toyota representatiuve answering bloggers questions, Facebook visability, etc. Toyota representatives should have done more TV news interviews. Been more accessible to reporters. Their crisis management approach definitely was not good.

    Granted US modern day technology & news media are a big challenge, but should have been contained more & part of the plan.

    They have gotten much better now. Am hoping they are now on path to controlling the crisis.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Here is one link - posted by Consumers Reports. Regarding my reference Toyota has 40% of all complaints. Have others but didn't look further.

    http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2009/12/sudden-unintended-acceleration-sua- -analysis-2008-toyota-lexus-ford-gm.html
  • lzclzc Posts: 483
    Do you have any evidence that the accident/death rate is higher for Toyota owners? It’s been a few years since I looked at insurance data on the death rate for different models, but I recall Toyota was in the middle of the pack.

    That people die while driving Toyotas is quite true. That the car is at fault is another matter. In the tragic San Diego-area Lexus crash—in which the cause is still unknown, that’s right, even though people act like they know the cause—is it not at least possible that the gas pedal stuck to the floor mat and started a chain of events, complicated by a driver who may not have known how to turn off the ignition, that resulted in the crash?

    You may well want Toyota to right its ship. But if Toyota has the burden of proving that every accident is not the result of a gremlin in its electronics, its ship is going down.

    On a saner note, last night’s local TV news reporter had a terrible time getting any Toyota owners to say something negative about their cars, although he sure tried.
  • lzclzc Posts: 483
    The Consumer Report article refers to a single year, 2008. Overall, the number may be higher or lower. Ford's 2008 number was almost double their market share, yet no one seems to be panicking about Fords?

    Keep in mind that every car manufacturer has complaints of UA. Just when should they shut down the assembly lines and stop selling their cars? Some people think it should be after the first complaint. If so, America has just gone out of business, for everything will have to shut down.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Poor guy. Pretty dangerous to just leave it. Hope police notify DMV so he has to go to his personal physcician to get tested to make sure he is ok mentally, physically, affected by meds for driving. Tests are available for mental competency. I would hate to see him get hurt at 83. And anyone else too.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Report was for all 2008 MODELS ONLY for 2009 up to Aug, 2009. SORRY - WAS NOT FOR YEAR 2008. Numbers would be higher if all model & all years included. Numbers would be higher if 4 more months included, but they wanted to try to eliminate effects of news media reports. Plus these were only NHTSA complaints, more out there.at dealers, etc.

    Yes, Ford is high too. If I recall correctly 28%. No Ford and others seem to be quite mum these days.

    Accident San Diego was the most influential incident that resulted huge public news media reaction - and now here we are. Was Toyota vehicle.

    Conclusions can be drawn from their sampling. A pattern does present. Do wish they would have included all years and all models though. . .
  • end of the day, those smart manufacturers competing in the US will realize that they are selling their vehicles to idiots who refuse to acknowledge their own responsibilities and as a result they will have no choice but factoring all the risks into pricing their vehicles higher.

    this is an example where stupidity really pays.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    No one will EVER convince me that in the proscribed conditions someone brought a Camry to a stop in only 190 feet. When the Camry came to a stop was the engine still ROARING at WOT or did it stall somewhere along the way...??

    Come on let's get real here, only 16 foot more than a normal panic stop and with the engine producing 268HP all the while...??

    No way.

    The 900 foot stopping distance for the Mustang also caught me by surprise. At first I wondered if the stopping distance of the Camry and Mustang somehow got transposed. Then it occurred to me that the Mustang's ABS would have been active all the while preventing the front wheels from "slowing" more rapidly than those rears powered all the while with 500HP.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Toyota and other auto manufacturers appear to keep some planned actions out of public view it seems.

    Identification of problem - who knows? Yes, we all just speculate. But Nov 25, 2009 Toyota brake override systems announcement helps address this issue. This came out before pedal fix.

    As I said before, I still think there is a definite plan to all of this.

    Bottom line does seem to be -- UA complaints will improve with brake override. Public happy. Credible past complaints addressed but not for them just in future.. Discourage law suits, false complaints, etc.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Better watch out, those "idiots" are now licensed to fly an LSA class airplane.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Everyone get busy and try to find another test done out there. I now have three tests saved in my computer. Anyone have any saved somewhere???
  • "No one will EVER convince me that in the proscribed conditions someone brought a Camry to a stop in only 190 feet."

    that's why we live in a free society where one can chose to believe in facts or fiction of their own making.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    I agree aobut DHTSA insisting upon brake override when DGW implemented. I forget which article I read - but DHTSA (year???)said they did not want to require as standard feature.

    Too bad. Here we are. Might change mind now. Heat is on DHTSA for not addressing UA sooner now.
  • 774774 Posts: 101
    I read those links earlier and have called Toyota Motor Sales reguarding the brake override. The model I have doesnot have a brake override system designed for it yet, at least thats what they said. The best we can do is wait and see what develops.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,094
    those smart manufacturers competing in the US will realize that they are selling their vehicles to idiots who refuse to acknowledge their own responsibilities and as a result they will have no choice but factoring all the risks into pricing their vehicles higher.

    Precisely how I feel about money wasted on ABS, ESC and all the other stability and traction control they have neutered our vehicles with. However if we are forced to have all that crap. We should also be protected from it when it goes astray. A separate brake over-ride circuit as several have suggested would be ideal. Toyota needs to address it and quit screwing around with useless tyraps and shims.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    What model and year is your vehicle?
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