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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • lzclzc Posts: 483
    With benefit of hindsight, it is unfortunate that Toyota didn't add a brake override feature as a safety measure. They may be guilty of over confidence. But of course they aren't the only large automaker not to install. All will soon install one, I suspect. And the Feds will probably require it.

    Some people will not be happy, though. Anyone pulling a boat out of a lake, or trying to get traction in the snow, regularly applies throttle and brake at the same time. But in the same of safety society regularly limits choice. "You will wear that . . . helmet, seat belt, etc."
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,137
    millwood, when you have vehicles involved in accidents, injuries, or deaths, then absolutely you make that change available to the affected vehicles.
  • 774774 Posts: 101
    http://cbs5.com/video/?id=61614@kpix.dayport.com

    I found this thought it would be of some interest.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,137
    lzc....I have towed a boat. And, I have used the "left foot on brake, right foot in accelerator" simultaneously method of getting it up and down the boat ramp. I also have a 4WD vehicle in order to do that safely.

    All that said, there are other ways aside from simultaneous brake/accelerator application....namely, just using the brakes in backing down a ramp, and using only the accelerator while moving up the ramp.

    Personally, I'd never use a Camry, or any other 2WD only vehicle to accomplish that task.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    So now the TC disable PB will have three functions, push once to disable TC, push again to also disable VSC, and yet again to disable brake/throttle failsafe.

    Allowing the brake and throttle to be used simultaneously until the next engine restart.

    So what's so hard about that...??
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,137
    774...great find. Even better that the dealership in the video is making it available to anyone who asks (not just 2007+ Camry owners).

    Toyota's listening. That's a good thing, too. And, they're taking at least some initial steps to do the proper fix. That's even better.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,137
    wwest....you've lost me.
  • 774774 Posts: 101
    Glad you liked it. I am in hopes my yet to be delivered Sequoia sitting on the dealers lot can get the brake override installed.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,137
    774....I've got a friend who has a year old Sequoia. Very nice vehicle. Best of luck in getting the software fix done.

    I don't understand why Toyota hasn't made some sort of PR on doing the software to the general public. I'd be trumpeting that achievement all over the place, if I were them.
  • 774774 Posts: 101
    My first Sequoia a 2001 was problem free with 98,000 miles on it that I sold 4 months ago to buy the 2010 model. I remain optimistic that Toyota will do the right thing and install the brake override in my current model now or in the near future.
  • lzclzc Posts: 483
    If it's true that installing the override involves nothing more than tweaking the software, Toyota made a very expensive decision not to do it sooner. It boggles the mind. It solves the problem, no matter what the cause.

    I suppose the issue of liability comes up. Doing it at anytime after it could have been done will sway juries that Toyota has been negligent.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,137
    If it's true that installing the override involves nothing more than tweaking the software, Toyota made a very expensive decision not to do it sooner.

    I'm sure that's a question Congress will be asking them, as well as Toyota has probably asked themselves.
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    Toyota's defense strategy: Wrap itself in the American flag

    Gosh, when all else fails, push patriotism :sick:

    If you've seen Toyota's latest television ad campaign about how they've let down customers and are promising to do better, you might wonder what happened to the Japanese. Toyota is, after all, a Japanese company. And Japanese workers are no where to be seen in the ads.

    Instead, the images are of busy American workers -- all hellbent on making better cars that won't kill you from unintended acceleration, the source of most of Toyota's problems right now. The Japanese workers have been banished because the ads underscore Toyota's strategy now that the next phase of its battle is about to begin before congressional committees in Washington. Toyota has suddenly become all about American jobs for American workers. Never mind that the profits flow to Tokyo.
  • tomjavatomjava Posts: 136
    Thanks for the link.
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    when was the last time an electronic part (cpu, memory?) in your PC died.

    Well I would say my last computer running Windows XP died - locked-up the CPU - about every week. It required shutting off the power and rebooting. My XBox360 experienced the Red-Ring of death (believe it was overheating) a little over 1 year.

    My 6 year old washer had the computer board replaced last week.

    My cable company remote was replaced last week, as one of the contacts on a button didn't work.

    My radar-detector has a bad connection somewhere, and shutsdown and resets when I hit a larger frost-heave.

    A few years ago I had a Check-engine light; the problem was the sensor had gone bad.

    or more broad stats?

    I'm sure you could find 100 websites discussing software and hardware issues just in PC's. Probably a 1,000 or more on general electronics failures. Knock yourself out. I think you'll get laughed off these forums if you're claiming software and electronic products are foolproof, OR anywhere near foolproof.

    you can say whatever you want but the fact remains that modern fly-by-wire systems have no mechanical back-up and are perfectly safe,

    Really? Did you forget? http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/13/plane.crash.new.york/
    It doesn't sound like the vaunted computer control and the FBW worked very well here. Did the computer override the crew's attempt to try and retract the landing gear? or did it override their attempts at control? or did it fail to make the observation that the humans did that there was a lot of ice on the wings. You say it's computer controlled and keeps humans from making mistakes; what happened here? "Perfect"? you're dreaming, end of discussion.
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    I would agree as long as all the automakers are under the same mandate. It would be simple and not add a pound to the already porker cars we are being sold.

    Yep. Just like seatbelts had to be mandated, because it is a very difficult sell for one company to do these sorts of things. Difficult because someone in the Marketing Dept. or the Executive corner-office is going to say "there is a negative connotation/message being sent to the customer in doing this."
  • oparroparr Posts: 61
    I found this thought it would be of some interest.

    Finally...The real McCoy. Thanks for the link.
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    Toyota and Tiger Woods: Kindred spirits

    NEW YORK (Fortune) -- The question is being raised more and more: Can Toyota recover its reputation?

    There is no simple answer. The automaker once enjoyed exceptional renown. In addition to being the largest and most profitable auto company on the planet, Toyota was the most studied and copied. Its production system became a benchmark and a model for competitors to emulate around the world.

    On top of that, Toyota (TM) was known for always putting the customer first, hence its passion for building cars with the highest quality and reliability. The automaker obsessively studied car buyers to find out what they wanted and then provided it for them. It became a leader in new vehicle segments like crossovers, and new technologies like gas-electric hybrids.

    Toyota trouble round-up: What to do now

    Compare that to the Tiger Woods scandal. Like Toyota, Woods had a reputation for excellence that far exceeded other golfers.

    Like Toyota, Woods was widely emulated for his faultless behavior and superb sportsmanship.

    Like Toyota, Woods initially put out a story about his wife, a golf club, and the shattered windows of his SUV that bore little relation to reality.

    Like Toyota, the news about Woods' missteps was allowed to trickle out day by day without being effectively refuted.

    Like Toyota, Woods refused to make a public appearance to apologize for his misdeeds (and still hasn't), preferring to issue press releases instead.

    And like Toyota, Woods promised to mend his ways, without offering any convincing evidence of exactly how he will do that.

    Just as Toyota has seen sales crumble and its used car values plummet, Woods has been abandoned by his corporate sponsors and shunned by other golfers.

    The critical ingredient that is still missing from the rehabilitation of both Tiger and Toyota is that convincing personal apology. Tiger hasn't been seen in public since the night of the accident and needs to make a believable account of his behavior along with a statement of his determination to change.

    image
  • pjc1pjc1 Posts: 72
    I am concerned that Toyota is on the ropes. Although I hope they make it through, they have a big hill to climb relative to the growing suspicions that they withheld information about quality or safety problems. Fact gets lost in fiction when these things occur so although most would like to believe that this did not happen the questions, if not dealt with, will be a cancer on the brand and the company.

    I know this first hand as I am going through it right now in my own business life. Certainly not at this scale but just the same, people are people and trust is a scarce commodity.

    I can't provide any sage advice or silver bullets as it really is a day to day issue but one thing I have learned is that if they have any reason to believe that things were withheld they better get it out there now or I fear the worst for them over the long haul.
  • I own a 2004 Toyota Sienna XLE. I have been watching the news about the recalls on certain Toyota model vehicles and so far the Sienna is not on the list. While the brake pedals are being blamed by Toyota officials for the problems with acceleration. Experts are saying its the Electronic Throttle Control System that is causing the acceleration problems. I called Toyota today to check and see if my vehicle also had this same type of throttle system which people are questioning and it does. I am concerned with the safety of my vehicle and why if many other vehicles have this same throttle system they arent all being recalled.
  • Because these so-called "experts" haven't come to the conclusion that it really has anything to do with the electronics ;)
  • "Well I would say my last computer running Windows XP died"

    sounds like an extreme string of bad luck. one of my Windows XP has been on for over a year - no problem whatsoever to dish out files to my other machines. My own Windows XP desktop has been on power on / hibernation cycle maybe half a year. no problem whatsoever, other than occasionally losing this particular dvd-rom.

    and my other PCs are quite fool proof as well. I did have a string of hard drives going back on me a few years back but that's mechanical.

    I have had multiple issues with my 330, my a/c and my fireplace insert most recently so I would say that my experience is otherwise.

    "I think you'll get laughed off these forums if you're claiming software and electronic products are foolproof, OR anywhere near foolproof. "

    I think anyone comprehending this discussion as that deserves to be laughed off. and I also think if you were to proclaim there that mechanical devices are statistically more reliable than electronic ones, you would have been laughed off before you could start, :)

    "Did you forget? http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/13/plane.crash.new.york/"

    did you read the final conclusion on that investigation? if no, you shouldn't check it out because it basically smacked your conclusion.

    "You say it's computer controlled and keeps humans from making mistakes; "

    I thought I had spent considerable time to boil down the various flavors of fly-by-wire for you. Had you understood what fly-by-wire really is and the different roles played by computers / software there, you wouldn't have needed to ask those questions.
  • they may not be able to come to any conclusions on that. software bugs are tough to find and replicate.

    they are in general easy to fix, though.
  • "If it's true that installing the override involves nothing more than tweaking the software, Toyota made a very expensive decision not to do it sooner. It boggles the mind. It solves the problem, no matter what the cause."

    that solution has its own issues as well. what if the brake sensor malfunctioned and as a result the override stopped the engine when you were trying to merge onto the highway?

    every engineering decision is a compromise made after lots of sleepless nights. If anything, you do NOT want a vendor to make a quick middle of other course correction like this one.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "...tweaking the software.." "..expensive decision not to do it sooner.."

    Sooner, or even NOW, may not have been a viable solution.....

    "..tweaking the EXISTING software will NOT result in a TRUE failsafe brake over-ride of the throttle plate opening..."

    For that to happen one must presume that the currently SUSPECT software is ALWAYS WELL BEHAVED, robust, reliable and BUG FREE. Additionally there is ALWAYS the question of a throttle plate mechanical failure, binding, etc.

    The only TRUE BTO, Brake Throttle Over-ride would use a completely different/separate/independent design approach. Maybe an ECU module that monitors the brake pedal switch, the brake pressure sensor, and BOTH throttle plate position feedback sensors.

    If the brakes are applied and BOTH throttle plate sensors do not quickly indicate movement to the idle position then the BTO module would open the EFI ground return circuit and only "reset" with the ignition switched off and then back on.
  • lzclzc Posts: 483
    >>every engineering decision is a compromise made after lots of sleepless nights. If anything, you do NOT want a vendor to make a quick middle of other course correction like this one.

    You make a very good point. One hopes Toyota has thoroughly tested this "fix." If not . . . . . wow! I assumed Toyota didn't offer up a brake override system because of the complexities of retrofitting cars on the road. Now this . . . . easy fix.
  • lzclzc Posts: 483
    >>. . .tweaking the EXISTING software will NOT result in a TRUE failsafe brake over-ride of the throttle plate opening..."

    What you say makes sense. But sometimes you do the best you can in the time frame in which something must be done. Toyota is in that position today.

    Even if this isn't the ideal fix, since the problem occurs only rarely, even a less than ideal fix may eliminate the problem for all practical purposes, no?
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    First, that airplane was NOT FBW.

    Second had it been FBW the electronic control might have been programmed to at least "push-back", nose DOWN, if not even automatically moving the throttles to MILITARY power mode, when the idiot pilot tried to pull the nose up with the stall warning sounding LOUDLY in his ear.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "..may eliminate.....purposes,no?.."

    That question can only be correctly answered once we know EXACTLY what the causative factor is.
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    Lawyers says Toyota accelerator defect could have killed 3 in 2006 crash

    image

    Toyota’s recent recall of more than 8.1 million vehicles is shedding light on a lot of things – one of them being an old court case about an accident involving a 1996 Toyota Camry.

    According to court filings, on June 10, 2006, 29-year-old Koua Fong Lee was traveling eastbound on Interstate 94 going as fast as 90 mph when his car hit an Oldsmobile at a red light. The accident killed the driver of the Oldsmobile along with his 10-year old son. His 7-year old niece was left a quadriplegic and died a year and a half later.

    Lee was eventually sentenced in 2008 to eight years in prison after being convicted of criminal vehicular homicide.

    Lee’s defense attorney is now trying to get the case reopened, amid news of millions of recalled Toyotas for problems relating to sudden acceleration.
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