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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "..easy to fix, though.."

    NOT...!!

    "Fixing" always entails "finding". Finding a software bug almost always involves being able to reliably replicate the failure mode and as we see that sometimes takes an extended period of time. and WORK.

    Sometimes it is simply more expedient to provide a "work-a-round", BTO in this case.
  • oparroparr Posts: 61
    Toyota’s recent recall of more than 8.1 million vehicles is shedding light on a lot of things – one of them being an old court case about an accident involving a 1996 Toyota Camry.

    Does the 1996 Camry have DBW?
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    OK - bad example on my part. I'm not an expert on which airplane has what control system.

    Are you of the opinion that all problems with devices are either human-error or mechanical? Why does Microsoft and most other software makers issues patches? Why do manufacturers stock spare parts like the electronic board that went in my washer last week, if they don't fail regularly?
    Why have thousands and thousands of people had to send their XBox 360 back for repair after months of initially fine use? Why does Sony have a lower but still significant breakdown rate of about on their Sony Playstation3 computer?

    http://www.gamespot.com/news/6216691.html
  • "Are you of the opinion that all problems with devices are either human-error or mechanical? "

    anyone answering "yes" to that question doesn't have a brain.

    "Why does Microsoft and most other software makers issues patches? Why do manufacturers stock spare parts like the electronic board that went in my washer last week, if they don't fail regularly?
    Why have thousands and thousands of people had to send their XBox 360 back for repair after months of initially fine use? Why does Sony have a lower but still significant breakdown rate of about 2% on their Sony Playstation3 computer? "

    there are a lot of reasons electronics fail. software issues as you correctly pointed out. thermal stress issues (where lack of heat dissipation heats up the die beyond its absolute maximum - 150c mostly), user issues, or incorrectly engineered circuits, to name a few.

    but you would have to be completely blind if you don't realize the superior reliability and dependability record electronics have over mechanical ones, assuming both are comparably engineered.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,147
    Sometimes it is simply more expedient to provide a "work-a-round", BTO in this case.

    wwest....I believe this is exactly the situation here. The glitchy coding in Toyota's ECUs would probably take a huge and maybe lengthy effort to find and correct. The brake override is more than likely a workaround, albeit one that accomplishes the same thing as correcting the original code (that is, stopping cars suffering UA). Hit the brakes, engine RPMs fall.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,087
    >The brake override is more than likely a workaround,

    If there's an electronic problem with the computer or the code and the thing goes crazy into acceleration mode... will it respond to a sensor input saying, "Oh, the brake is on so reduce engine to idle."

    I think it won't fix some of the problems at all unless it's a separate failsafe design to throttle the engine (excuse the pun).
  • "The glitchy coding in Toyota's ECUs would probably take a huge and maybe lengthy effort to find and correct. "

    how do YOU know that the code is "glitchy"?

    just how do YOU know that?

    it is OK to speculate, as long as you lay it out and let people know that it is nothing but pure speculation on your part. Presenting it fact-of-matteredly is simply wrong.
  • oparroparr Posts: 61
    The brake override is more than likely a workaround, albeit one that accomplishes the same thing as correcting the original code (that is, stopping cars suffering UA).

    Seems as though Toyota is dammed when they do and dammed when they don't. Logically, if the code was at fault here then we would see a commensurate amount of UA incidents coming out of Japan and other countries. That just isn't the case.

    I recall seeing my wife hold down the accelerator pedal of a 1996 Camry, thinking it was the brakes, while in a Mall. Had I not been in the car at the time, I'm convinced she would have blamed the car. Luckily, no damage was done.

    The above is probably the only UA scenario in which BO would be useless. Calling it a workaround when it addresses so many possible causes of UA is just ludicrous.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,147
    millwood, well if the code wasn't glitchy there would be no reason for Toyota to try and fix it (as with the video posted earlier of the Toyota dealer installing new code into the ECU). Nor would Toyota redo the code for the upcoming Avalon.

    Can I prove it? Nope. I doubt Toyota will let anyone into their computer labs outside the company to find out, either. All fingers seem to be pointing in that direction, though.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,147
    oparr, if it was everone else's code that was glitchy, too....then every manufacturer using DBW would be reporting so many accidents based on UA. This is something that seems unique to Toyota, and their coding.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,147
    ;hc....I see Erin Brokavich on the TV every night pushing some sort of tort law firm for something. I don't run out and call the 800 number. Seems as if every day, there's some sort of lawfirm looking for people who took this or that drug, trying to get them to join some sort of lawsuit. Again, anyone can sue, for any reason. Being successful at it is a different animal.

    Understand that these type of lawsuits mostly are levied on a contingency basis. Either they win the case, or they don't get any money......not even reimbursement for their expenses.
  • "well if the code wasn't glitchy there would be no reason for Toyota to try and fix it"

    there could be plenty of reasons for manufacturers to reflash the computers: to build in new redundancy, to build more redundancy, to add features, refine behaviors, etc.

    the fact that we are changing our ways of doing things (reprogramming a computer for example) doesn't necessarily mean the old ways of doing things are wrong.

    "Can I prove it? Nope."

    well, maybe we should present our assertions / proclamation accordingly.
  • "not even reimbursement for their expenses. "

    that doesn't mean the cost to the businesses is not born by their customers.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,087
    edited February 2010
    >it is OK to speculate, as long as you lay it out and let people know that it is nothing but pure speculation

    It's okay to try to beat down a negative about the product if you have proof the code is perfectly correct. Do you? Otherwise that is speculation that there is NO problem..

    Otherwise, we can look at the unexplained acceleration events from the past 8 years and ascribe a few of them to floor mats and a few to pedals that are sticky which might apply more in low speed maneuvering such as parking, otherwise there are a whole bunch of incidents that are happening because of "something." That something appears to be the powertrain control unit or the code or something. It certainly isn't a flat tire causing the problems; it's something to do with the control systems.
  • oparroparr Posts: 61
    This is something that seems unique to Toyota, and their coding.

    If it is unique to Toyota (and we all know it isn't) then it would be unique to Toyota USA. Even if so, why does it have to be coding....It could be the position feedback sensor used in the Throttle servo system....Several things can cause a runaway servo system. People have latched on to ECU coding because that's just about all they understand when computers are at the heart of complex operations.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,147
    there could be plenty of reasons for manufacturers to reflash the computers: to build in new redundancy, to build more redundancy, to add features, refine behaviors, etc

    Or, more likely in this scenario, they had some problems, and they found a work around for a solution, as has been suggested not only by myself, but many others who are even smarter than me. The fact that the Toyota dealer in the video mentioned that Toyota sent them a software "fix", for vehicles in their shop for something like "faulty floormats", even reinforces my belief.

    I stand by my belief....their software is glitchy. Toyota found a workaround. Toyota is sending the workaround to the dealerships to install "while they're fixing their floormat issue". That the dealership service dept is offering to install the software fix to ANYONE who asks for it reinforces my contention even more.

    Why offer a software fix if there isn't a software problem to begin with?
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    but you would have to be completely blind if you don't realize the superior reliability and dependability record electronics have over mechanical ones, assuming both are comparably engineered.

    Let's see some proof of that. I can make a machine that uses the weight variation of an item using gravity to turn an item the way I want (say a tin can). You make a machine that has sensors, relays, motors and software to turn the can, and we'll see which is more reliable and dependable. :P

    And why do you think that Sears guarantees it's handtools for life, while anything with a switch, wire or motor gets a 1 year warranty? What do you think that says about the expected lifespan before failure?

    Wake up! One good cyber-attack and most of your devices will be corrupted, or the electrical grid will be down. Electronics and automation are great for efficiency and comfort; fragile and lousy as far as dependability, and ease of finding the problem and fixing it. Perfect example - the length of these UA problems. Second example - flaws in the Prius's braking system.
  • oparroparr Posts: 61
    well if the code wasn't glitchy there would be no reason for Toyota to try and fix it

    Words of wisdom there....So other makers (GM, Chrysler, BMW, VW, Audi, Nissan) who have implemented BO, did so because of code glitches?
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,147
    If it is unique to Toyota (and we all know it isn't) then it would be unique to Toyota USA. Even if so, why does it have to be coding

    I don't know. Ask Toyota. They're the ones who made it a point to include the brake override code in their new '11 Avalon. They're the ones who've sent the code to dealerships, telling them to (quietly) also redownload code in addition to doing floormat replacement.

    Did Toyota state it was unique to the U.S.? Hell, they won't even admit that they're doing it publicly....let alone which geographic region they're doing it for (could be all of them), or which models are included. Given that the dealership said they'd do it for anyone who asks, tells me it will work for everyone who may have either had an issue, or is concerned they could have an issue, regardless of model or model year.

    Geez-Louise....you'd think some of you would be happy that Toyota found a workaround to at least one of the issues (UA), and it may extend to another (braking).
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,147
    Words of wisdom there....So other makers (GM, Chrysler, BMW, VW, Audi, Nissan) who have implemented BO, did so because of code glitches?

    I haven't heard of any widespread UA or braking issues with those manufacturers. Could be their code was solid. Or, it could be because they implemented brake override code because they felt it was important. Send them a letter and find out.
  • lzclzc Posts: 483
    edited February 2010
    >>Why offer a software fix if there isn't a software problem to begin with?

    Why is a software fix necessarily a fix for a software problem? The brake override system will presumably prevent accidents and injury no matter what the cause of UA, be it floor mats, driver error, faulty gas pedal assembly, or even a software gremlin.

    You assume something that may be true . . . . or may not.
  • oparroparr Posts: 61
    edited February 2010
    Or, it could be because they implemented brake override code because they felt it was important.

    Yes, it saves lives if ever something goes wrong. Several things seem to be going wrong in Toyota's case....Be it ECU code, floormats, sticking pedals or whatever.

    BTW, Audi implemented BO after a similar debacle. AFAIK, no one has ever figured out what the real culprit was in their case. We'll probably see the same scenario with Toyota.
  • "It's okay to try to beat down a negative about the product "

    where is the logic here?

    "if you have proof the code is perfectly correct. Do you? Otherwise that is speculation that there is NO problem.. "

    well, I never asserted anything, either that toyota has problems or that toyota does not have problems.

    so how I can prove an assertion that I didn't make?

    or this is some kind of tricky questions?
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    I would really love to hear from any Toyota owners apart of the recall who have already had their vehicles fixed with the pedal fix that Toyota came up with help? has anyone who experience UA before who now has the fix, have you seen any UA since the recall fix was implemented on your vehicle?
  • I will make your life that much easier for you.

    try to make a mechanical watch accurate to 1/10th of a second and we will sit down and compare notes, :)

    "And why do you think that Sears guarantees it's handtools for life, while anything with a switch, wire or motor gets a 1 year warranty? What do you think that says about the expected lifespan before failure?"

    it says that 1) mechanical things have wide quality gaps that some of them are very unreliable, to the point their merchant is only willing to provide a 1-yr warranty; 2) it is always a bad idea to compare apples vs. organges; and 3) it is an even worse idea to smack oneself in the face with one's own examples.


    "Wake up! One good cyber-attack and most of your devices will be corrupted, or the electrical grid will be down. "

    ok. try to cyber-attack my electrionic watch, my mp3 player, my amplifier, my tv, my mcu-clocks, my digital cameras, ........

    I will give you all the time you want and if you break anyone of them through a cyber-attack, you can have them.

    :)

    "Second example - flaws in the Prius's braking system. "

    hm, try to cyber-attack that sucker, :)
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "..video...installing new code..."

    Single source reporting, so I would be, am, suspect of the possibility that Toyota/etc is already installing "new" BTO code. Especially seeing as how no one else has said such was available, not even Toyota.

    Was the "reflash" the dealer did actually related to the BTO, Brake Throttle Over-ride...??

    I'd bet not.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Does not compute, need more input...
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    I know of at least one widespread incident wherein Toyota/etc issued a TSB to reflash the engine/transaxle ECU when the original code was not considered at fault. In about '07 ('08??) Toyota issued a TSB to provide a NCF, New Car Feature, as a retrofit.

    After so many complaints regarding the 1-2 second downshift delay/hesitation Toyota revised the firmware in yet another attempt to overcome the design flaw in the U140E/F transaxle and its successors.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "..I haven't heard of any widespread UA..."

    No widespread..??

    Wouldn't that INCLUDE Toyota/etc...??
  • xluxlu Posts: 457
    The number of new posts on this thread is shown as "4.611111111111111e+28"; the other threads also show very large numbers end with many 111s. Is the website hacked by someone?
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