Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

14243454748115

Comments

  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "..Why aren't...."

    Because until "now" no one saw, foresaw, the need.

    The clutch went away.

    The mechanical coupling to the automatic transmssions went away.

    The mechanical coupling to the throttle went away.

    And no one noticed that there was no longer a way to uncouple a run-a-way engine.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,166
    Toyota has already suffered from losing a lot of their former reputation. Ford, GM, Nissan, and even Hyundai have built more positive reputation, in a short period of time (relatively). They're certainly taking large chunks of Toyota's customer base.

    But, Toyota is entering into an area of firsts, none of them good. Not sure of this, but 8.5M vehicle recalls, at least in such a short period of time, across such a broad range of products, for such a variety of maladies, have to be a first.
  • you can look up the transcript of AutoNation's last quarterly call - autoNation is the largest Toyota dealer in the country and they discussed at length how this whole fiasco will impact Toyota.

    the general consensus is that the long term impact to Toyota is minimal.
  • "No it is common sense not to entrust your life to a device you know isn't essential, that you can operate yourself."

    it depends on what you and the society consider essential. At the basic level, clothing, shelter, cars, tvs, computers, and pretty much 99% of what we use on a daily basis isn't "essential" in that you can certainly sustain your life without any of them.

    does that mean you should be walking around naked?
  • millwood0millwood0 Posts: 451
    edited February 2010
    "And no one noticed that there was no longer a way to uncouple a run-a-way engine."

    there is an engineering report by a west coast engineering firm (Exponent?) today on Toyota vehicles electronics systems. They bought 6 toyota / lexus vehicles last december and started to induce electronic problems in the vehicles to say if they couldn't induce run-away cars / unintended acceleration.

    In spite of their herculean efforts, they could only get lower engine output - apparently the computers will detect sensory malfunction and will default into a fail-safe (lump-home) mode.

    the report IS funded by Toyota.

    from WSJ:

    "Exponent has so far been unable to induce, through electrical disturbances to the system, either unintended acceleration or behavior that might be a precursor to such an event, despite concerted efforts toward this goal,"

    "In December, Toyota retained Exponent "to understand customer reports and claims of unintended acceleration in vehicles" which use its electronic throttle-control system. Exponent says Toyota didn't limit the scope or budget of its investigation. A person familiar with the study says testing and analysis by Exponent will continue for several months."

    "The evaluation was conducted by engineers and technicians specializing in mechanical, electrical, and automotive engineering. It included a series of tests such as driving tests with anomalies imposed on the electronics and characterizing the sensitivity of the system to aberrations and noise imposed on individual components.

    The tests looked at how the electronic sensors in the gas pedal and in the throttle body perform in different vehicles in normal and stressed situations. When failures were induced in these sensors, Exponent says the electronic control module detected the problem.

    "Imposing these perturbations resulted in a significant drop in power rather than an increase," Exponent says in the study. "In all cases, when a fault was imposed, the vehicle entered a fail-safe mode."

    In the event of any electronic failure, Toyota says its system is designed to default to fail-safe, or limp-home, mode where the engine power is significantly reduced."
  • any of you thinking that you are better qualified by Exponent should probably step up to the plate, :)
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    edited February 2010
    In Exponent hasn't yet asked for, and recieved, the firmware source code with full documentation, flow charts, etc, then they are simply pissing upwind, and a HIGH wind at that. Of course they would then probably need to hire the TOP CODER from the original source company in order to even begin to understand the code, let alone be able to troubleshoot/debug it.

    I wish them luck in any case.
  • maple2maple2 Posts: 177
    autoNation is the largest Toyota dealer in the country and they discussed at length how this whole fiasco will impact Toyota.

    the general consensus is that the long term impact to Toyota is minimal.


    Well DUHH!! What did you think they would say? You think they are going to say hmmm i guess we are screwed now. :lemon: :confuse:
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "... apparently the computers will detect sensory malfunction and will default.."

    And if the computer itself has the malfunction...DEADLY EMBRACE within the code execution maybe...??

    When the battery in my '01 911/996 was marginal I would not have even taken notice except shortly after starting to drive away the instrument panel would light up like a Christmas tree. I could switch the ignition off and restart and everything would be fine until the next time, RARE next time.

    I finally decided to pay attention to the fact that when starting the engine was turning over a bit slowly. Once I replaced the battery the engine would then start INSTANTLY and all those symptoms disappeared.

    My guess, "uneducated" guess, was that with the low voltage during engine cranking some of the ancillary ECUs, ABS, PSM, etc, were dropping out of operation, code crawling into a hole....
  • berriberri Posts: 4,159
    I'm thinking if something else ends up involved it may be the cruise control interface. If computer coding, EMI, etc. is an issue it seems to me it would also show up in other makes in some iteration. Toyota doesn't have a lock on drive by wire or computer controlled cars. Throughout the years there have been sporadic reports of odd cruise control behavior in varies makes of vehicles. Regardless, a brake override would be a welcome addition, but I'm thinking driver error is probably the most frequent cause. Its good they are testing other things out though.

    I like the sudden increase in Toyota UA claims though, probably a combo of media hysteria and televised legal firms soliciting a buck. Reminds me of how whenever there is a city transit accident, if there were 6 people on the bus, at least 18 show up claiming injury after the accident. America - home of the lawyer on commision!
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    edited February 2010
    "In December, Toyota retained Exponent "to understand customer reports and claims of unintended acceleration in vehicles" which use its electronic throttle-control system.

    Amazing!! Who would have imagined that Exponent could support the exact result that Toyota wanted, and which Toyota is paying for. Next thing you know my Congressmen will be adding little addendums to bills, to help the lobbyists who just took them and their families on a fact-finding mission thru the Caribbean. Anyway, my friends and I will do a second study to verify the first. Where's Toyota's phone #? ;)
    I would guess Toyota will pay pretty well, as I'd certainly pay a lot to have some independent-proof (hahaha!) when the lawsuits start. Maybe Toyota can see if they can arrange some of the OJ jurors to be involved? :D
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    what does that say about the robustness of the code?

    I guess the writer of Toyota's code is god-like! :D I thought that was only the emporor in Japan? So the emperor must be moon-lighting? :D
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,744
    Toyota has already suffered from losing a lot of their former reputation. Ford, GM, Nissan, and even Hyundai have built more positive reputation, in a short period of time (relatively). They're certainly taking large chunks of Toyota's customer base.

    But, Toyota is entering into an area of firsts, none of them good. Not sure of this, but 8.5M vehicle recalls, at least in such a short period of time, across such a broad range of products, for such a variety of maladies, have to be a first.


    Again, disagree. The jury is out. Nobody looks objectively at numbers. You may be a bit too wishful. It could come true if Toyota screws up, but IMHO if they are honest from here on out and no more problems occur, their damage will not be long lasting.

    GM had 40 years of trash and that takes a lot of years to climb out of the hole. Toyota had 40 years of almost sterling reputation and even a few years of incidents that are admittedly rare (at least the UA problems) don't destroy that reputation.

    Ford's lawyers said let the Pinto buyers burn because it was too expensive to design a decent gas tank. That is worse than Toyota.

    Again, if Toyota does well from here on, they will only suffer a year or two. If they screw up or more problems discovered, it may get to what you say. But it is not there yet. I would personally still trust a Toyota more than a C or most GMs.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,911
    Toyota is paying the wrong company. They need to pay the folks that are doing them the most damage. The unhappy customers.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,911
    Ford's lawyers said let the Pinto buyers burn because it was too expensive to design a decent gas tank. That is worse than Toyota.

    How do you know that Toyota has not hid their findings on the flaky DBW system? There is evidence to that end.

    GM had 40 years of trash

    That is so much baloney. I owned 5 GM trucks from 1988- 2005. The only one that gave me problems was the 2005. Sounds like GM and Toyota headed down hill together. Just talking to my plumber. His 2002 GM 1 ton van has 255k miles with only a bad water pump. GM cars may have been junk. I have never owned one. Did the frames rust and fall apart like recent Toyotas? I think the downfall of Toyota since the late 1990s is actually understated.
  • mnfmnf Posts: 404
    edited February 2010
    Thats just like saying the Government or the UAW has no interest in Toyota failing DUHH...... ;)
  • "I guess the writer of Toyota's code is god-like!"

    you guessed wrong.
  • "And if the computer itself has the malfunction...DEADLY EMBRACE within the code execution maybe...??"

    you apparently aren't aware of watchdog timer, something they usually mention during the first lecture on Embedded Programming 101, and they usually start to teach students about it in the 3rd or 4th lecture on the same class.

    "When the battery in my '01 911/996 was marginal I would not have even taken notice except shortly after starting to drive away the instrument panel would light up like a Christmas tree. I could switch the ignition off and restart and everything would be fine until the next time, RARE next time."

    mostly modern mcus run off 1.8v - 2.2v, and some older stuff run off 3.3v - 5v. Your battery (lead-acid) is considered fully depleted with an output voltage of 9.4v, and most systems light up a warning if it falls below 10.8v.

    so to think that your lead-acid batteries can fall to the extent that it would no long power a mcu is foolish and ignorant of the basic knowledge about electronics.

    "My guess, "uneducated" guess, was that with the low voltage during engine cranking some of the ancillary ECUs, ABS, PSM, etc, were dropping out of operation, code crawling into a hole.... "

    never heard of brown-outs, BOR resets, etc.?

    apparently so.
  • " Who would have imagined that Exponent could support the exact result that Toyota wanted,"

    you are basically accusing Exponent of having no integrity, without any factual basis to support your allegation.

    " and which Toyota is paying for. "

    who else do you think should be paying for this? GM? you? the plaintiff's bar association?
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,155
    From my experience, GM cars have been excellent - from my 1968 Buick Special Deluxe to my current 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,744
    GM had 40 years of trash

    That is so much baloney. I owned 5 GM trucks from 1988- 2005. The only one that gave me problems was the 2005.


    Perhaps if you want a truck. I like sedans and GM had nothing decent unless you wanted a boat that rode on cream of wheat shocks.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    edited February 2010
    no it isn't baloney!! GM has always spent more time and money in their Trucks and SUVs then they have their sedans; if you check you my posts in GM Customer Service and GM Market Share you'll see that the various 8 GM sedans I had over the almost 30 years I was with GM all had major problems and I spent thousands upon thousands of dollars to keep them going, all before 80k miles!! :surprise:

    GM trucks and SUVs are much more reliable then their cars have been!! there is the reason why the majority of Americans, for the past 20 years, typically have a Japanese car in their driveway and a GM or Ford pick-up truck as the other vehicle

    for instance my one neighbor has a Accord and F-150 and my other neighbor has a Maxima and Silverado!!! :shades:
  • 'there is the reason why the majority of Americans, for the past 20 years, typically have a Japanese car in their driveway and a GM or Ford pick-up truck as the other vehicle "

    maybe just because the Japanese came to the truck game late?

    the pick-up truck is a very unique US thing. many of the countries outside of the US don't have them, or have much smaller versions of them. so naturally the US makers have been long at this game and have an advantage over the Japanese (or the europeans for that matter).

    the same could be said about cars 40 - 50 years ago as well.

    it takes time to catch up with someone, even if that someone has years more experience.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    edited February 2010
    well you know what really looked stupid with GM, Ford to a little extent, but GM was whining and crying when gas prices were over $4 dollars a gallon and they had huge inventories of large gas guzzling pick-ups and SUVs on their lots that they couldn't even give away and you heard all the dealership whining about how much inventory they had

    that was the problem, GM's primary focus has always been pick-ups and SUVs because as GM stupidly said, "that is what Americans want" despite the fact no one was buying them when gas prices were over $4 dollars a gallon - GM finally reduced production, too late I might add, of their pick-ups and suvs but then as soon as gas prices lowered production of those large gas-guzzling vehicles increased again - "HELLO, DIDN'T YOU JUST SEE WHAT GAS PRICES WERE AT AND NO ONE WAS BUYING THEM???" and there is a really good chance they'll be back at those high prices within the near future??? and then GM will be whinning again when they have these huge inventories of gas guzzling vehicles that they can't sell

    these are the local dealerships I have within 10 minutes from me, GM, VW/Audi, Nissan, Ford, Hyundai, Toyota, BMW, Infiniti, Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep, Subaru, and MB! of all these dealerships, the GM dealership has the biggest on lot inventory of pick-ups and SUVs which takes up almost HALF their lot

    now that gas prices have been hovering just under $3 a gallon, instead of $2, I've started noticing a reduction in pick-up and SUV purchasing and I've seen the same pick-ups and SUVs at my local dealership sitting there for the past several months!

    what really shows GMs stupidity is, that when gas was over $4 a gallon, all Japanese, Korean, German, and Ford had the smarts to severely reduce their large gas guzzling pick-up and/or suvs production when the gas prices started really going up! of course though, GM didn't and I remember my local dealership having to buy out two separate empty parking lots outside the dealership to hold all their inventory because the suvs and pick-ups were just sitting there while they continued to get their normal supply of coupes, sedans and pick-ups/suvs!
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    edited February 2010
    you are basically accusing Exponent of having no integrity, without any factual basis to support your allegation.

    "Suspecting" is not "accusing". I "suspect" since I have seen various examples where $$$ influences the judgment of firms. If you were an investor in Enron, with Bernie Madoff, or various companies that were rated by Moody's or other rating-agencies; and you did not suspect bias, then you were out a lot of $$$. It's not wise many times to wait for the proof. :D

    I also suspect that most of the scientists and universities behind collecting data on man-made global warming are biased because of the $$$ and power they receive for coming to certain conclusions.

    Everyone can be corrupted, it's usually just a matter of how hungry they are. What is uncovered on these issues can mean the difference of hundreds of millions or billions of $'s, so yes internal and paid-for analyses are suspect.
  • GM's calculation at that point might be different: their business model worked on the basis that you have to keep your factories churning out those vehicles as the (marginal) savings from shutting down the factories are minimal, thanks to UAW.

    so they were facing two difficult choices:

    1) keep the factories working. that built up the inventory and hope a future reduction in gas prices will move the inventory. they are largely correct on the 2nd point - they thought $4 gas wasn't sustainable. But that depleted their cash fast which drove them to their demise.

    2) shut down the factory. well, they would have to pay the union members and not much else was saved. Remember that GM was a negative working capital company and they benefit from higher levels of working capital so a ramp-down of production would have been a huge cash drain and that would have killed them faster.

    your larger point is right, through: GM put all of its eggs in the truck/suv basket and when that stop'd moving, ...

    but I think their notion that americans want bigger trucks / suvs continue to be correct, except that at $4 gas, that was a lot less correct, :)
  • ""Suspecting" is not "accusing".

    does the following like suspecting or accusing: " Who would have imagined that Exponent could support the exact result that Toyota wanted,"

    "If you were an investor in Enron, with Bernie Madoff, or various companies that were rated by Moody's or other rating-agencies; "

    for your information, the rating agencies didn't cover Madoff. and unlikely to ever cover him or his type of busiensses, if you understand what rating agencies do.

    "Everyone can be corrupted,"

    that doesn't mean everyone IS corrupted.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,851
    Rude messages are a violation of the membership agreement.
    Off-topic messages, such as those addressing hosting of this discussion and the quality of GM vehicles, are a violation of the membership agreement.

    Please do not engage in either activity - they are equally offensive.

    The appropriate way to deal with hosting issues is via email. Posting within the discussion only ADDS to the problem. These discussions are not now, and never have been, monitored in real-time. The best policy is to ignore rude/offensive posts until a human host removes them - hosts each cover many discussions, so this may not always be first on the list.

    Thank you, and please return to discussing the issue pertinent to the topic of this discussion.

    kirstie_h
    wandering host

    MODERATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    edited February 2010
    does the following like suspecting or accusing:

    It's subjective; depending on the bias of the reader. :D

    for your information, the rating agencies didn't cover Madoff.

    They were 3 separate subjects: 1) Enron, 2) Madoff and 3) Moody's. They each were either paying someone to audit them - Enron and Madoff; or 3) they were getting paid to rate companies (many they continued to rate AAA until days before their stocks collapsed.

    that doesn't mean everyone IS corrupted

    And I'll doubt an unknown's honesty, until they prove otherwise. And then I'll still have a camera on them, if they're involved in my affairs.

    Toyota has a serious problem right now, in that there have been so many dishonest individuals and corporations in the news. The worst thing they could have done is not to have had 1 "confession" of all problems. The way they have handled this with various statements and various recalls on different days, certainly makes it look like they are reluctantly giving information. It can all be legitimate, but it certainly looks like confusion, correction, and added recalls, coming out over months, is not the best way to present this.
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    Source: NHTSA

    image

    Another day, another major story on Toyota's recent recall woes. As you may have already heard, the National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration – and particularly U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood – is less than pleased with the way Toyota has handled its various vehicle callbacks.

    Now, NHTSA has made its public displeasure official with a press release indicating that it will "[use] its statutory authority to obtain documents from Toyota to determine if the automaker conducted three of its recent recalls in a timely manner." To what end? To determine "when and how it learned of the defects affecting approximately 6 million vehicles in the U.S. alone" and to be sure that there aren't any additional problems Toyota has yet to announce.

    If the NHTSA finds that Toyota failed to deal with known safety issues in a timely manner, it could find the Japanese automaker liable for a maximum of $16.4 million in civil penalties. Granted, that's a pretty small dollar amount for such a large company, but it could spearhead the already rising tide of negative press and keep the issue fresh in the public's mind for some time to come. Click past the break for the official press release.
Sign In or Register to comment.