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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall



  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Yikes hope I am not in trouble for this?? Was just fact I had read researching from multiple different sources. I didn't understand.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,678
    I have not seen any official report stating the shim fix will get Toyota off the hook. Only an anonymous someone at the NHTSA said it should be a go. I think Toyota has to come up with a better fix than that. But I am not making the decision. That would be the Federal Government that forced Toyota to quit selling vehicles in the first place. I am waiting for the recall on the Throttle body failure that caused UA for the well publicized Toyota driven to the dealers with a WOT. A shim would not have fixed that failure. Of course the Federal Government is shut down due to GW causing heavy snowfall in DC. So we will have to wait until the NHTSA gets back up to speed, if they ever do.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 17,690
    > I particularly liked this auto comparison demonstration for stopping auto at full throttle.

    I didn't catch that CD let up on the brake and then pressed it again, all the while holding the throttle open. And repeating the way a scared driver might do. Most of us have learned to drive where pumping the brakes helped boost the fluid used by a bad master cylinder. Or pumping worked on ice. That lowers the booster assist to the brakes and then the driver can't apply enough force to overcome the motor.

    This message has been approved.

  • "§ 573.11 Prohibition..."

    so, in plain English, what does that mean?

  • "a scared driver might do."

    you meant "an incompetent driver" instead?

    that's Darwinism at work. and that's how we have evolved over the last billions of years.

    and we will continue to do that, stupidity not withstanding.
  • "(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not prohibit a dealer from offering the vehicle or equipment for sale or lease, provided that the dealer does not sell or lease it."

    so basically a dealer can sell or lease a defective vehicle unless s/he doesn't sell or lease it.

    I love those lawyers, :).
  • tomjavatomjava Posts: 136
    Again, nowadays almost all modern cars equipped with Anti Braking System (ABS). With ABS, never ever pump the brake period. I bet most drivers will panic when ABS is on, and blame the car when accident happens. :sick:
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 17,690
    >you meant "an incompetent driver" instead?

    I don't think most people involved in the runaway acceleration and the parking accelerations are incompetent. When things happened unexpected and happen quickly, people don't have time to think about what to do.

    This message has been approved.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,678
    you meant "an incompetent driver" instead?

    I would say designing a braking system that goes against tried and true braking practices makes the auto engineers the ones that are incompetent. This whole UA with Toyota is the first time I have seen any reference to cars only capable of one or two pumps on the brake before they are depleted. That to me is a design problem not a driver problem. Drivers that were trained 40-50-60 or more years ago will pump the brakes in an emergency to NOT lock them up. Changing designs without massive retraining becomes a liability to those that make the changes. It would be interesting how the courts would see that issue.

    Evidently the CHP officer in the runaway ES350 was trained to pump the brakes as I was.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    The brakes do not fail as a result of applying and releasing several times, you "simply" lose the brake boost assist unless the engine intake manifold vacuum can be used to replenish the boost.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 17,690
    Not sure if I'm off point on what people mean..., but take your car and drive along at 60. Turn the ignition key to the Off position without locking the column. Of course, pick somewhere with no other cars around.

    Then start pushing the brake pedal down to lightly engage. Then let up. Repeat the push. See how many it takes before the pedal pressure has increased greatly.

    Or you can kill the source of vacuum by accelerating at full throttle and the vacuum in the motor drops to 1 or 2 psi unless you've got a restrictive air cleaner. If you do this test at full throttle I suggest having an uphill section so the car doesn't build up too much steam and you're a danger or receive a ticket.

    This message has been approved.

  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    And I think gagrice was questioning why you would design a system that relied on intake manifold vacuum. Why couldn't the brake system be powered by the engine, and if you lost the engine, say as we're talking about turning the key; well there's still a large battery there.

    The battery could be used for minutes to provide energy to the braking system, to run any sort of vacuum pump or hydraulic pump necessary, to brake to a stop.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 17,690
    >And I think gagrice was questioning why you would design a system that relied on intake manifold vacuum. Why couldn't the brake system be powered by the engine, and if you lost the engine, say as we're talking about turning the key; well there's still a large battery there.

    In the old days, the vacuum powered windshield wipers. And as soon as the throttle plate opened to accelerate gently or harder, the wipers slowed or stopped.

    So, they came up with a vacuum pump coupled with the fuel pump which supplemented the engine's low vacuum when the throttle plate was opened.

    Put an electric vacuum pump in series with the engine vacuum line to the brake booster.

    Or use an electric pump for hydraulic brakes.

    This message has been approved.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,678
    It all has to do with getting by as cheaply as possible. I think several have commented on the fit finish and overall quality of the 1990s Toyotas compared to the last 5 years. The newer ones are bigger and faster. And sometimes too fast for their own brakes.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Sorry you know me I will always advocate safety. Human error is always present and should/must be factored/considered when safety device discussions undertaken for laws. People react differently during emergencies. And as humans we all make mistakes. Etc. .

    Won't get into many of the reasons and findings as think I have posted many before. 19 deaths & # accidents seem to indicate some action needed..This Car and Driver article suggested driver error, other auto sites have have supported computer bugs, some take great care to be careful. I somehow see this as one more theory to save to my long list of bookmarks. Will be interesting to see..

    Reference to number of incidents. I thought that has been addressed/reported all along? But don't forget actual numbers are confusing - all over and no required data base. Some at NHTSA, Dealers, news media, safety sites, etc. Have seen some people don't know where to even lodge complaints, and state they could not get through to Toyota. They were using news blogs to complain.

    Sure is not just Toyota - thats a definite. What I find interesting is
    fact some of others with higher complaints aren't addressed as well.

    Good to hear what you are saying. Yes, I felt this guy was mocking that people were cause. Whoops not good as he wrote & is now documented.
  • mnfmnf Posts: 404
    Just Rented a Toyota RV4 in Portland Oregon from Dollar Sunday they also had a Camry in the row next to me. Maybe its just in some areas BTW nice rig rode nice lots of pep ZOOM ZOOM oops thats Mazda :P

  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    This is just a copy of what the law is.

    Definition: a decree that prohibits something. Smile - and is referencing alcohol.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Sorry I have always backed off, and then gently apply once again to handle slick, etc roads. I live in California now, but Nebraska roads - lots of ice. And I don't do what I would actually call pumping. I have had anti- lock brakes for over ten plus years. Does take good common sense and keep speed appropriate to conditions Works fine for me. Lots of bad road conditions, and I do drive alot. No accidents.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660

    So you have had same experience with some owner/s. I spoke with another neighbor that has Lexus and Camry. He had heard, but hadn't investigated, wasn't real concerned. Sad they have had no problems. And he is attorney.
  • Interesting comments from you and lzc. After reading the 1000+ posts on this thread, and viewing numerous other threads, I have come to some conclusions:

    1.There is some possibility of a stuck throttle, but the corrective fix is ongoing at my local dealer. I believe that a throttle assembly that could stick will give you warning by changes in "pedal feel", etc. if you are paying attention to your vehicle.

    2.There is a SLIGHT possibility of UA because the vehicle speed is computer controlled. Someone calculated the incident rate at 1 in 50,000-60,000 vehicles, against the odds of being murdered at 1 in 18,000. I think that makes my
    Avalon fairly safe. The possibility of my home computer doing something stupid is way greater than either of these numbers.

    3.The best thing learned from all this is that all of us now know how to deal with UA if it happens. I might have thought about turning the key off, but I would probably have pumped the brakes with the intent of making the vehicle stop sooner, and I doubt if I would have thought about putting the vehicle in neutral.

    4. The floor mat issue is a joke, and not even worthy of conversation if you have properly hooked factory mats. I have seen vehicles where you could not even see the floor mats for the debris on the floor. Drivers must assume some responsibility for their safety.

    I will take my vehicle to my local dealer when the frenzy settles,and probably get the accelerator "shim", and hopefully get the computer reflashed for brake override. I will refuse to let the dealer GRIND AWAY part of my accelerator pedal. If new pedals become available, I might consider that. I intend to keep driving my 2007 Avalon for several more years.
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