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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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  • Karen_CMKaren_CM Posts: 5,026
    And someone in the San Francisco area?

    Thanks to all that respond!

    karen@edmunds.com

    Community Manager If you have any questions or concerns about the Forums, send me an email, karen@edmunds.com, or click on my screen name to send a personal message.

  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Wow, revelations abound.

    I did as you asked and browsed about on the various Hyundai specific forums on the internet. Two things jumped out at me.

    Hyundai cars are experiencing the same 1-2 second downshift delay/hesitation as are all the FWD and F/awd (not ruling out RWD) Toyota/Lexus/Scion products. My conclusion is that Hyundai using the same transaxle supplier as is Toyota/etc.

    Hyundai is also experiencing what is seemingly an unusual level of accelerator pedal position sensor failures. The nice thing, for Hyundai, is that the engine/transaxle control firmware is detecting the sensor failures and simply putting the control system in "limp home" mode.

    But at the very "core" of all this I think I see the "hands" of NipponDenso, Denso US, in "play". I would bet good odds that the controlling firmware for both the transaxle shift sequence/pattern and the accelerator monitoring came from one source...DENSO.

    Raising, for me, the distinct possibility that DENSO has not enough oversight, KNOWLEDGEABLE oversight, to provide high quality assurance of their software design's overall reliability.

    Some years ago I discovered that some of the B767 flight control surface firmware was being "certified" by hardware engineers with NO software development nor software specification writing experience. So what should we expect from software development/specification from Japanese/Denso engineers operating in an ancient "heads-down" cultural environment.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,180
    c) opportunity. ;)
  • While the Prius is not part of this recall a previous recall was laid at the feet of an interfering floor map. Those of us who own a Prius have some doubts that this is true. There have been occasional reports of the Prius accelerator not working correctly and at least one small company has been fixing the accelerator assembly. There bay be an issue with the sensor used in the assembly.

    Does anybody know if the recalled models use a similar fly-by-wire approach to accelerator control?
  • Wwest, I must finally ask the question.....what education, job position, technical experience, etc., do you have that qualifies you to be the "expert witness" on all topics that turn up on this forum? Your ABSOLUTE technical knowledge of all things automotive is truly amazing.

    And question no. 2, how many Toyota vehicles do you own/drive?
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    So I am waiting for Toyota to fix my defective 2009 Camry so what do they do, they are sending the pedals to the factories instead of the dealers.

    Thanks Toyota for yet again screwing over the customer and be more worried about getting your sales up and ready. And people say Toyota cares about its customers.

    Toyota is sending new gas pedal systems to car factories rather than dealerships who want the parts to take care of millions of customers whose pedals may stick.

    Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons confirms information in a company e-mail obtained by the AP that says parts were shipped to factories. Lyons says that's how the company normally distributes parts.

    But some dealers say they should get the parts first because they now have no way to fix the pedals on any of the 4.2 million recalled vehicles affecting eight U.S. models.
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,312
    So I am waiting for Toyota to fix my defective 2009 Camry so what do they do, they are sending the pedals to the factories instead of the dealers.''

    Here's the MSNBC story:

    Toyota sends new pedals to plants, not dealers

    Meanwhile, Toyota apologies (but not for that):

    Toyota CEO Apologizes; Company Advertises Apology in U.S. Media (AutoObserver)

    Moderator
    Minivan fan. Feel free to message or email me - stever@edmunds.com.

  • maple2maple2 Posts: 177
    Toyota Ceo Apologizes.

    Yawn...Nothing to see here, just Mr Toyoda apologizing yet AGAIN.
    Nothing to see...move along...
    Next
    :shades:
  • 774774 Posts: 101
    I ran across this and decided to post it. It seems to me we are not getting the whole story on this gas pedal problem from Toyota

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnFp2yLBnNQ
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,855
    Thank you for that link. No wonder I love the internet.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,387
    >But at the very "core" of all this I think I see the "hands" of NipponDenso, Denso US, in "play". I would bet good odds that the controlling firmware for both the transaxle shift sequence/pattern and the accelerator monitoring came from one source...DENSO

    From reading your very logically thought out post, I infer that you believe there's something wrong or at least something happening in the firmware in the computer reading the accelerator sensor? So there may be something wrong beyond the accelerator pedal sensor. You're suggesting that involves Denso rather than only CTS even though CTS has been named by Toyota because of the accelerator pedal sensors. Am I correct?

    Would this be consistent with some postings (true or false) of quick acceleration from a stop?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,387
    Thank you for the link.

    I cannot see how condensation would occur inside causing inhibition of physical movement and giving a friction to the pedal movement. The initial descriptions said there was a wiping contact and condensate buildup after wear and polishing could cause the sensor to not work properly. I don't see anywhere in this well done tear down showing that to be possible. The only "rubbing" is on the brass bearing contact, not the contact sensing pedal position.

    Thank you.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,387
    Here's another link where the same person who disassembled the pedal and sensor talks about the possibility of the problem being the engine end of the throttle assembly OR a computer malfunction.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHotbtd7HJA
  • "So what should we expect from software development/specification from Japanese/Denso engineers operating in an ancient "heads-down" cultural environment. "

    I am not sure what you mean by a heads down environment, but it sure beats the disrespectful, arrogant, and immature attitudes at many US work environments. I heard on either CBS or Bloomberg radio that up to 65 percent of American workers do the minimum work just to get by, while up to 15% are actively working against the companies they work for because they are disgruntled employees. Scary, don't you think. Poor companies like GM and Toyota have to deal with this to do business in the US.
  • a8fana8fan Posts: 16
    I have a Tundra 2008 and aside from the pedal not being as smooth as I would like, I have no idea what to expect.

    I'm thinking someone keeps a very dirty car floor and something got stuck in it.
  • a8fana8fan Posts: 16
    I also suspect this is a ploy to steer users to GM... LOL I would not put it past the commies in office now.
  • 774774 Posts: 101
    Thanks, I was in hopes there was a follow up video. It appears the problem is much more than a gas pedal or floor mat.
  • berriberri Posts: 4,235
    It appears the problem is much more than a gas pedal or floor mat.

    I think Toyota should hire an aircraft company or a miltary lab to test out these computer and electronic areas. EMI is a major issue there, especially on a carrier deck or missile launch area, so this industry and the AF and Navy are pretty advanced in these areas.
  • 774774 Posts: 101
    You would think that if the problem was just the gas pedal assembly it would be obvious. I am with you there is more to this than what we are being told.
  • 774774 Posts: 101
    Toyota is losing millions on this and has to solve the problem. The floor mat excuse once you look into it is not going to fly. The gas pedal explanation based opon the two videos in above posts is not looking so good
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,056
    Dealers: Recalled vehicle owners must wait for repairs on faulty gas pedals

    DETROIT - Toyota is sending new gas pedal systems to car factories rather than dealerships who want the parts to take care of millions of customers whose pedals may stick.

    Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons confirms information in a company e-mail obtained by the AP that says parts were shipped to factories. Lyons says that's how the company normally distributes parts.

    But some dealers say they should get the parts first because they now have no way to fix the pedals on any of the 4.2 million recalled vehicles affecting eight U.S. models.

    Lyons said Toyota did not send the parts to dealers because it has not decided whether to have the systems in the recalled vehicles repaired or replaced.

    But dealers and customers were unhappy with the delays in getting parts.

    Earl Stewart, owner of a Toyota dealership in North Palm Beach, Florida, said his service technicians might not know the details of how to fix the gas pedal systems, but they know to install new ones, and the parts should have gone to dealers rather than factories.


    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35143209/ns/business-autos/

    It seems strange that Toyota has not displayed these so-called corroded throttles attributed to CTS. Could this just be Toyota buying time to find what is really wrong with their systems?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,387
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnFp2yLBnNQ

    This video shows the internals of the CTS pedal. I don't see where the condesate and polishing due to friction with aging have the potential to cause a problem. There's no mechanical contact as in an actual potentiometer.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHotbtd7HJA&feature=related

    This one sums up the potential areas for the problems to occur clearly. Sounds like firmware problem in at least some of the cases.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Based on your statement you don't understand the issues. After all this time and all these posts haven't you yet understood what happened in these two separate recalls?
  • Actually if you check the NHTSA site, you will find several "vehicle speed control" incidents for the Avalon. Not as many as the Camry, but then there are not as many Avalons on the road.
  • I agree with your last statement about sounding like a firmware problem. I believe many of the people's confidence in what they experienced to be credible. When they say they did not depress the gas, or they just tapped the brake and the car took off, or they "felt the pedal pull away from their foot", a sticking pedal explanation does not hold water. A plausible cause would be that cruise control was activated and set at an undesirable speed. Then the question is whether the firmware that made that logic decision is still accepting inputs to change that setting.
  • 774774 Posts: 101
    Are you saying the vehicles involved in the first recall have a different type gas pedal assembly from the ones in the current recall ?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Not even close. So how is it that you can complain about purported intents if you don't understand the subject you're posting about?

    The floor mat excuse once you look into it is not going to fly.

    This isn't Toyota's excuse. It's the action that NHTSA forced on Toyota so that stupid owners and others ( like stupid Lexus dealers ) would have a larger margin of error in case these morons decided to try to kill themselves and others by stacking multiple mats on top of one another.

    Basically NHTSA is saying that some in the driving public are going to do stupid things. We're going to force you to try to compensate for these dopes by putting more space in the footwell - just in case someone does an idiotic thing like put an SUV All Weather mat into the footwell of a smaller sedan...then not secure it in place. This recall is the NHTSA thumping its chest.
  • 774774 Posts: 101
    So you are saying the NHTSA forced this floor mat excuse on Toyota.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    ... but the guy admits to a lot of missing knowledge about the pedal and the assembly.

    He simply states that in his opinion it's a good design but it might be flawed but he doesn't know for certain.

    Now as regards to facts. CTS has stated publicly that it is redesigning that pedal under instructions from Toyota to make it better, but they imply that the redesign didn't make it into the field yet. CTS is the true source of knowledge and the owner of the patent here. If in it's opinion, implying also Toyota's opinion, that the pedal needed improvements then it leaves this guy twisting in the wind.

    It's interesting to see inside the pedal but he like almost everybody herein has no facts and no inside knowledge of what the real defect is. He admits that he simply doesn't understand. Another non-factual opinion.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    No you're misunderstanding what I posted. My point about not understanding the two very different issues here.

    The NHTSA issued a recall on certain Toyota vehicles back in 2007 based on mats trapping the gas pedal. They found a significant number of people were putting multiple mats on top of one another and not securing them in place. This could cause the top mat to slide forward and to trap the pedal in WOT. In this recall owners and dealers were instructed NOT to stack mats top of one another and to make sure that the mats were secured to the anchors in the floor. ( ISSUE No 1 )

    However some people since then have complained about the pedals becoming stuck when there were no mats involved. ( ISSUE No 2 )

    Last August a CHP driver and his family were killed in an ES350 Lexus loaner car and the NHTSA after its investigation found that the likely source was..........
    ..the Lexus dealer stacked two mats on top of each other
    ..the Lexus dealer used an All Weather mat from an SUV ( ! ) which was too large for the footwell sedan
    ..the Lexus dealer didn't secure the top mat in place and it slid forward apparently

    Everyone of these actions was in contravention of the 2007 recall. It was simply stupid and possibly criminal. ( ISSUE No 1 again )

    So what should be done? Due to the high visibility of this case the NHTSA had to do something to try to protect certain stupid people ( like the Lexus dealer ) from inadvertantly trying to kill themselves and others by doing idiotic things. The NHTSA can't have a 'safety rider' going along with every owner in the US reminding them "Don't do stupid things". So they forced Toyota to reshape the gas pedal to make it shorter and to take padding out of the floorpan. In this way if someone ignored ALL the warnings and still tried to do something really stupid like stack two or three mats on each other and not secure them there would be a larger margin of error. ( ISSUE No 1 again ). This is the large recall back in November. It's the NHTSA thumping its chest saying "See what we did."

    But all along a few isolated people were still complaining about the pedal being stuck like the Avalon driver in NJ. He did nothing wrong and had his OEM mats secured properly ( ISSUE No 2 ). This is the voluntary recall last Tuesday where Toyota determined that certain isolated CTS pedals might 'become sticky' over time and use under certain specific circumstances. It has nothing to do with mats, never did.
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