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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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  • marvin6marvin6 Posts: 72
    edited February 2010
    Perhaps hitting them (toyota) real hard financially will drive the point home not only to toyota, but other manufacturers as well. You buy your politicians and lobbyists then you hope to get what you pay for - protection and profits. It's sad that our country has come to this. This time it is at the cost of human lives. I think this may bring all the automakers into looking out for the consumer, but I am betting it will be shortlived. I hope I'm wrong.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Interview wti Biller has already occurred. Lawmaker yesterday publicly accused Toyota of withholding evidence for courts and possible disregard of US laws.

    Click on pdf file left hand side - Letter from lawmaker to Toyota - attachments of just few documents.

    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-biller27-2010feb27,0,4348450.story

    Since Biller was managing attorney for Toyota during his tenure with them - think he was probably pretty good & well respected attorney. I too have felt I saw some possible medical issues. I am not sure whether this can be attributed to an existing medical condition cause or pyschological condition cause?? I realize he stated he had breakdown. Medical condition cause can't be r/o'd out though. ????

    I have not fully read attachments documents w letter. Do pay particular attention to sections addressing UA/SUA - internal communication between two attorneys re: ETC and upgrades - 2005 or 2006. Lots of documents. Will look at more later.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,262
    Sharon....When I heard that Toyota hired Exponent, I think we got a glimpse of where they were headed. That is, doing everything within their power to deflect , hide, dismiss the facts. That's what Exponent does (and apparently, not very well as Congress didn't seem too impressed). Further, I thought it was quite telling that Toyota didn't offer up Exponent to answer the engineering questions for them while in front of Congress.

    Personally, if I didn't have anything to hide regarding Toyota's electronics/software safety issues, I would have countered Dr Gilbert. If I had nothing to hide, I would have told Congress...

    'Ya know, we have some pretty smart people....some really smart engineers who are our employees, too. We've got our own "Dr Gilberts" who work for Toyota. We hire a lot of them to help us with safety issues and to design our vehicles. And, here's what they found out. Here's what they proved in their extensive testing of our electronics/software. These are the reasons they only think it's a floormat and accelerator assembly problem. You should probably let them speak."

    Did Toyota do that? Did they let their own internal "Dr Gilberts" refute any of the evidence? Nope! Instead, they got Exponent, who was only hired literally hired a few days before hand. I'm sure, not to get the truth and research out. But, to probably "prep" Lentz, Inaba, Toyoda on what to say, and what not to say. The results are what we all saw and heard.....which wasn't much, except "I don't know"....or the occasional "slip up" (as in Lentz's slip of the tongue that they have a cruise control UA problem, too).
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,262
    edited February 2010
    Sharon....I just took the time to read through the PDF you pointed us to. WOW!

    While, perhaps as a person who does or doesn't come off well in an interview, Biller certainly must have presented the Congressional Oversight Committee with some pretty damning evidence in order for them to try and compel Inaba to turn over documents that Toyota is trying to hide....especially as they're related to the safety of their vehicles.

    Plus, there was the "blurb" about 6 or 7 software fixes that Toyota was implementing to perhaps "cure" the UA issue. This, hot on the heels of the Toyota's statements that software was thoroughly invetigated and ruled out as a cause.

    This is going into very, very dangerous territory for Toyota....that is criminal areas....obstruction of justice, contempt, and probably some other legal black holes that Toyota definitely doesn't want to be in.

    Inaba's response will be very interesting. We'll see if he tries to block handing over these documents. If he does, we'll pretty much know that Toyota is hiding pertinent evidence. And, it will have to be derived via subpoena. Something tells me Lentz, Inaba, and maybe even Toyoda are not finished testifying in front of Congress.

    Plus, we don't know what the SEC has turned up yet in their Toyota investigations. Nor do we know what was found in the gov't raids done on Toyota's closest suppliers.

    Now I'm wondering if this isn't all going to culminate into a showdown between Toyota and the DOJ.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,707
    edited February 2010
    spells "manufacturers" in post #1816 above.

    Perhaps hitting them (toyota) real hard financially will drive the point home not only to toyota, but other manufacturers as well. You buy your politicians and lobbyists then you hope to get what you pay for - protection and profits. It's sad that our country has come to this. This time it is at the cost of human lives. I think this may bring all the automakers into looking out for the consumer, but I am betting it will be shortlived. I hope I'm wrong.

    That's also how I spell the word. Why is it that so many people here on Edmunds spell it "manufactures"? Are marvin6 and I missing something here? Is "manufactures" the correct way to spell manufacturers when meaning manufacturers plural, or something?

    Looking for English majors here or English nerds to take a break from Toyota's nasty, intense, troubles for just a moment and help me to clear this very important spelling-meaning issue up, please.

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    I have no idea, but news reports indicated heavy political lobbying. Lobbying can be good and bad I think. Just headache time for us citizens making sure "deals" above board. From what I read all auto manufacturers can be difficult to deal with, but then hear Toyota may be one of worst. Well who knows?? I don't. I have tried to go with the facts of long timeline.

    Safety agencies seem to be helping bring facts to public. News pressure has been great. Some bad. But some investigative reporters have brought true facts to us and have alerted public what is going on..

    Facts do reveal DHTSA and Toyota disregarded SUA complaints of long duration which were ones involving accidents/deaths. These complaints were the worse. Narrowing the scope of investigation What is left to consider? Minor nonserious UA complaints that do not appear serious - just left.

    Impression left in our minds - human safety disregarded for benefit of corporation. DHTSA just had only one death listed?? But heat on & then suddenly 34-35 deaths, hundreds of accidents. Where are all of DHTSA documents and Documents defending what mutually agreed to??? Seems no public disclosure that I can find.

    UA/SUA could have been addressed and safety system was available at least 10 years ago that could have been installed each and every vehicle of each and every auto manufacturer.. ???

    What is sad DHTSA number of complaints does not address full scope of the true number of incident complaints. DHTSA had statd Toyota has many more than they have at their dealerships. Are they turning all over?? Very sad all UA/SUA complaints not addressed and considered. The management approach to not consider the worse which cause deaths/injuries just leaves many questions how/ why this would lead to discovering the true cause??? I am sure enough of us have had professional management experience, and realize the major flaws that exist with this type of approach. Then comes the unproven suspicions. Neither DHTSA or Toyota publicly providing long trail of documented proof to US citizens good substantiated feasible reasons for this type of approach. Sure wish they had/did.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Such misspellings usually are just typo errors. I personally am notorious for these types of errors. Since this system blog site has no spelling correction alert system seems these types of errors will be present. I do confess I contribute to the typo errors.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,707
    edited February 2010
    thanks for that reply. I agree, that this is a spelling problem. I'll miss one now and a then, but I'm generally pretty good at spelling. Spelling and English were actually a couple of my favorite subjects in school. I remember a lot of goofy, confused looks on my classmate's faces when punctuation, grammar and spelling principles were being taught to us in school.

    I sure do appreciate you being here on this forum and I am enjoying your insights on this most important and troubling late-breaking automotive/safety issue here. Thanks again! :D

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    At least not directly.

    Much more likely that something is happening that results in "upsetting" the instruction execution sequence of one of the microprocessors in the engine/transaxle control module/system.

    Lots of RFI/EMI "wondering" around within the engine compartment and clearly some serious issues to be overcome with the 12 volt supply system.

    Driving along on the highway just yesterday I happened to notice as I drove by the area at least 8, EIGHT, cellular telephone antenna systems/towers all with a stone's throw of each other.
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 40,868
    There is a spell check button at the bottom of the posting box, but it won't find words that are otherwise correctly spelled but for the context.

    If y'all need a breather, check out Grammar and the Peeves that Pet It.

    Moderator
    Need help navigating? stever@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Thanks. Appreciate. Just passing along information that does seem appropriate for discussion. More fact pieces of the puzzle to fit together.

    NOTE - fit Biller's internal Toyota 2005-2006 memos re: ETC fixes into the whole Toyota UA/SUA timeline. Yes, seems a big issue here for Toyota??? Once I saw this I go oh no!!! I do realize this is from the past, but when you fit in into timeline along with other documents then YIKES! Some implications as not addressed/taken care of then.

    I found it interesting FBI did raids on Toyota suppliers also. Appears two carry Japanese names. Alarming?? What is going on??? Guess this story has to unravel as well. But something is/may be suspected or has been found??? I realize Japan and US are in negotiations at present, but can't seem to connect to Toyota's present problem re: UA/SUA. Neither do I seem to connect any US government bias to US manufacturers - possibly leading to pressure on Toyota.

    So far all I can find is Toyota after the San Diego accident - 911 call released to public by CHP- Lexus loaner with prior UA/SUA customer complaint - Toyota in the hot seat - this is one of their models with UA?SUA problems. Public pressure & US history seem to indicate any of auto manufacturers would have been in hot seat after San Diego accident if their ongoing/recent UA/SUA complaints were higher or history not resolved/existed. And then all that has happened and been revealed as story has unfolded. To me seems to be DHTSA and Toyota in hot seat together. Appears they themselves managed/addressed/fixes mutually agreed to & got themselves into this highly questionable predicament.

    And we have no true factual actual numbers of UA/SUA complaints. DHTSA has few, Toyota dealerships have many more, news agencies have picked up more, some not reported, and now more coming out with publicity. DHTSA Data Complaint System is only voluntary. Trends in NHTSA complaints can be analyzed. But headache time attempting to analyze any stats reported with NHTSA numbers only. As for me I am more interested in the last three to four years of how a manufactuerer is doing.

    How will dust settle??? Have no idea. Will be watching, as have vested interest, and will have to make my own decisions re: what I will do re: my vehicle.

    Not as easy for cover-ups in todays modern technology oriented society. it seems. Documents released publicly travel the internet quickly. And this is good. Helps keep everyone honest. Detrimental document information just keeps drippling out as time has passed. I just go "oh no" each time. Keep hoping - but my patience has run out.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Do you happen to know why ALL automotive engines come from the factory with RESISTIVE spark plugs and for ignition systems other than coil-on-plug the HV wiring is also resistive...??
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Yes, I'm sure money will come in. But will it really be for safety is question? Somehow safety sites just don't seem to have that much money backing them - do they??? Know auto manufacturrs do and spend millions in lobbying and political donations to candidates.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    No not me, are you kidding?? Do you hope you can help me here. Am trying to learn.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    So happy you were not offended. I am registered with a party, but go will most certainly go either direction.

    As to your concerns - I just posted a blog of what it seems I have put together so far. I can't connect at present. Also is a reference to why it seems Toyota is in hot seat today and other manufacturers are staying "mum." History of past seemed to help lead me to my present possible impressions. Facts of how it started. etc.

    Yes, I too hope all manufacturers clean up their problems. US citizens do not like human lives sacrificed and disregarded/eliminated from considerations to address/act /fix problems for profits of a corporation. .
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    So you are seeing issues too. Exponent is definitely a defense type firm. I would assume Toyota is attempting to get engineering reports, Exponent witnesses to help defend against their lawsuits. May never be public information for expert outsider to analyze and critique. As I said I would have many questions about any reports they produce?? Yes, Toyota could have used Exponent at hearings, but that was in a public arena. Control of information would be lost- maybe reason.

    Toyota did try to say they hired Exponent and their reports found no problems. Approached news agencies and tried to convey to public. Sadly report was only basic and seemed to be of no real value. Experts were tearing report apart. This attempted approach by Toyota seemed to fall flat then. Law makers state Toyota did not produce their own engineer reports as they requested. Lawmakers only got Exponent's.

    So much conflict seemed to exist at the hearings when comparing testimony. Saw report Toyota retracted Lentz's statement "fixes may not address all the problems." Also saw a news report Toyota will not nationally provide free rental, payment taxi, etc. for inconvenience costs as they seemed to imply at hearings. New York - as agreed with Cuomo they will.. Guess all to unfold - truth re: these two issues. .

    Seems like both you and I were hoping for Toyota to give a good honorable approach type testimony at hearings.. Strongly stomp down critical speculation.
  • What's EDR? :confuse:
  • I've been looking at blurbs about Japanese culture. From what I understand, the avoidance of shame is a huge motivator for their behavior. As long as no one thinks you're guilty of wrongdoing, you can avoid feeling shame. A decade of trying to appear innocent has resulted. I hope that someone is feeling ashamed of themselves. Heads should roll - figuratively, not literally.
    Any Japanese folks able to weigh in?
    Corporate greed, of course, also explains this whole thing.
  • Unfortunately you probably just have to wait it out. Adding insult to injury, Toyota is using some of your $55K to squash investigations that would have helped the next guy. For future reference checking the NHTSA database, there is not a single recall on any 2010 Ford SUV models and there is just one across all 2010 GMC/Cadillac/Chevy/Buick SUVs (Equinox/Terrain: dealer fix to avoid the defroster not working properly)

    Don't know if you heard Rhonda Smith's testimony to congress. Just like you all she wanted was her money back on her new Lexus.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM6hi5R0PNw

    Yesterday's news if you did not see it:
    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2611433620100226
  • Here are 3 short paragraphs by Richard Mitchell regarding a part of Japanese culture that seems applicable to yesterday's breaking news on Toyota squashing U.S. investigations.
    http://www.springerlink.com/content/y674m082j2662t67/?p=e0636b17646e4836aa99c46d- bb75b166&pi=1
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    You are welcome. Smile - I sort of felt you were the "A" grade student/person. And you are probably a much more proficient and accurate typist than I am.

    Actually I didn't have much knowledge about auto mechanics/engineering at all. Just have vested interest from owning a Toyota vehicle. Dug in, researched, etc. My son does do auto development/engineering though and he has helped alot. Many of the blogggers here have been patient and guided me along and have patiently put up with me. They have been wonderful. I have only tried to put all the real factual information together in the many year timeline - as pieces to a puzzle. Analyzing info as I and other coworker peers did professionally in meetings. Applied medical scientific study analysis approach to reports I have read, info with this situation. Does definitely work to discover any faulty aspects that may be present in a report. Engineering technical reports - I am totally lost. Have some insider perspective to corporations. Knowledge of CA corporate codes. Some knowledge of legal issues, lawsuits. Etc.

    Words spoken and true documented facts sometimes conflict. Etc, etc, etc. Just keep trying.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    In the '50's if you were watching TV and someone started a car up with ~100 feet you lost the sound for sure and maybe, just maybe, you could discern enough of the picture to make sense of it.

    Then go back to the early 1900's and radio transmitters (morse code) consisted of high voltage/current spark gaps.

    Those Toyota/etc A/C electromagnetic clutches, absent "snubbers", represent modern day versions of those 1900's spark gap radio transmitters.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    edited February 2010
    A decade..??

    More like 3 or 4.

    Yes, if this current Toyota situation had ocurred back in say, 1948, the Toyota president would have felt "obligated" to commit suicide. That culture is what makes Japanese management so diligent at producing a quality product, "Relentless Pursuit of Perfection, but on the other hand very motivated to avoid public admission of mistakes.
  • gizzer777gizzer777 Posts: 335
    edited February 2010
    I read somewhere that Toyota and CTS had been working on a new more robust gas pedal (Presumably not the shim fix).

    I presume they are using this pedal in the 2011's since production began again a few weeks ago. I also wonder if they are putting Denso pedals in the 2011's at the moment?

    I wonder what this is...Anyone know?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,028
    edited February 2010
    EDR= Event Data Recorder
    Many auto makers put them in cars. They give pertinent information on what is going on with the vehicle. Handy in discovery of accidents. Some legal issues like who the data belongs to. Toyota's EDR is very secret. They are the only ones that can download and decipher the data. I don't know of any other automaker that is not an open data source. GM has used them a long time.

    The EDR in the 2009 ES350 that experienced UA, and 4 people were killed, was retrieved by the sheriffs office. It supposedly contained no readable data. That of course according to Toyota. I don't think you can believe a single word they say.
  • carbuff1171carbuff1171 Posts: 77
    edited February 2010
    Event Data Recorder - During the hearings they explained that unlike U.S. manufacturers, Toyota encrypts the data in their EDR such that only their proprietary reader can read it. LaHood explained that there is only one "prototype" Toyota EDR reader in the U.S.

    If the control computer gets as hosed as some theories suggest, it may be incapable of writing any meaningful data to the EDR, although the last 5 minutes leading up to "the event" would theoretically be there.
  • I don't know, but I believe that except for a few isolated examples, the whole gas pedal explanation is a red herring. If you listen to what actually happened to people (like the acceleration started when they tapped the brake, the car kept accelerating with the shifter in reverse, the engine would not shut off...), the gas pedal is irrelevant.
    http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/runaway-toyota-owners-story/story?id=8999481
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,707
    edited February 2010
    U.S. lawmakers should intervene in an emergent-type situation like this. Perhaps this Toyota EDR information should be made to be public any time it is deemed to be needed by say...oh, I don't know, the police for instance! Anyone with a job that dictates they search for the truth in regards to the automobile's(or it's driver's) actions in any particular accident. Or SA of some sort, a stray floor mat, an accelerator pedal with a mind of its own. Oh, how complicated this whole coverup...I...I mean investaigation has come to be. Tethered and tattered Toyota has apparently been beaned by a Randy Johnson fastball that tailed up and away. Nice to see RJ finally retired. Enough mlb arrogance has been spun everyone's way from that tiger.

    Talk about a high and mightier than other people automaker. I'm really starting to get the creepy-weepy's from these guys.

    Or is this a Japanese cultural norm we're dealing with here? I am interested in how this comes out, not because I own a Toyota, but because I own my first Japanese car, a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. Kinda makes me a tad suspicious, know what I mean? We've already discussed how Mitsu execs falsified data in an earlier Mitsubishi recall. In some way. Not even to mention their failed idea to give every dork in America who wants a Mitsubishi an instant loan and 0-0-0 payback package. I can just see them smacking themselves upside their own heads in disgust when these fruitcakes started defaulting on their loans.

    Having said that, Mitsubishi sure did a fine job building our 2008 Lancer GTS. Today I took it through some SE Arizona twisties below Dos Cabezas peak. The car steers accurately on a dime as you accelerate through the turns. The car is a pure and thorough joy to drive. I would be amiss to stray to Suzuki or BYD when my Mitsubishi drives and looks the way it does.

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,276
    >gets as hosed as some theories suggest, it may be incapable of writing any meaningful data to the EDR, although the last 5 minutes leading up to "the event" would theoretically be there.

    I got the impression that the toyota EDR was very deficient in terms of how much information was written there timewise--very small memory. It was a very short period of time that was able to be stored compared to a GM vehicle. And the information was somewhat primitive. Toyota didn't have to provide a wholesome EDR until 2012 when it will be required and they were putting in minimal equipment.
  • I agree with you...was just curious.
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