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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,099
    shraon.....I believe the lawsuits are coming. There's just too much evidence pointing at Toyota. You've got deaths, injuries and accidents that are all pointing to either UA or braking issues. You're right, anyone can sue. Not everyone will be successful.

    Key here is whether Toyota did enough, in a timely manner, to correct the maladies.

    That's why I think the quicker they move to the brake override system on cars past and present, the better they'll be able to defend themselves that they did indeed move swiftly in dismissing claims, at least for those plaintiffs that complained, but did not suffer bodily harm, nor an accident.

    Someone posted something regarding the '11 Avalon.....directly from their press release..."Avalon will also have a redesigned
    accelerator pedal assembly and a brake override system."


    For all intents and purposes, Toyota is admitting that there was a problem with their former accelerators and lack of brake override, otherwise they wouldn't have made it a point to include and announce those "features".

    The Avalon uses the same engine, and probably the same ECU (assuming that's what needs to be reflashed) that's used in at least the Camry, ES 350, GS 350, IS 350, RX 350..and any other application utilizing the 3.5L V6. I'm fairly certain that the ECU is different in the Prius and Lexus and Lexus HS hybrid, which were recalled, even in Japan, for braking issues. Still, that ECU is the part that's common to all of those vehicles that have issues. Does it extend to 4 cyl models? I don't know. Does it extend to models that use the V8? Don't know that, either.

    But, if a reflash solves the problems with both UA and braking, and many pundits/experts, etc say that it will, then that's what Toyota should do, to all cars that are affected, or could possibly be affected. Looks like they're doing the reflash for new models.

    In the '11 Avalon's case, I'm sure development was pretty far along and feature sets were cut in stone until they made the decision for the reflash to include the brake override. That's a safety decision that was probably very recent (like within the last couple of months) to include.

    So, it can be done. Moreover, it should be done.

    I get the suspicion that after Toyota meets with Congress, that it will be done, whether they want to or not.

    Declining quality issues? That's something that's going to take a bit more time to overcome. Clearly, they're going to have to readress both their engineering of parts, and their process to install parts on the factory floor, worldwide.

    They've got a big job ahead of them. I'm sure Toyota is up to the task, if and when they decide to tackle it.
  • "I do take exception to your stattement- "

    I am sorry, but exactly which statement or statements of mine you took exception with? and why?
  • "For all intents and purposes, Toyota is admitting that there was a problem with their former accelerators and lack of brake override, otherwise they wouldn't have made it a point to include and announce those "features"."

    so in your view, car companies have no reason to redesign their vehicles or add features unless and until to cover up an issue?

    really? you cannot think of any other reasons?

    that's pretty shocking (that you cannot think of any other reason), don't you think?
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    what if the primary system is problematic 0.0000005% of the time, and everything else is the same. Will you add that back-up system?

    Probably not in your vehicle. :P But our society certainly has a lot of experience with electronic devices in the last few years; and the failure rate is no where near that good. You can say that after years of development and alpha and beta testing of the MS OS, that it is an anomaly that Microsoft issues hundreds of patches / year. Or I can look at my top-of-the-line washer which just needed a new computer board the other day. Our hardware and software is full of bugs and failures waiting to happen. It is not a matter of IF the item is going to fail, it is simply a matter of WHEN and HOW it will fail.

    And as Steve said - UA is not a brand-new unexpected problem that just occurred 2 months ago.

    The problem is that vehicles have systems that will fail in various modes - whether hardware or software, and do not have redundant systems as we mentioned on airplanes. They are using the same design-philosophy as our TV's, washing machines, and computers. The difference is the TV, washing-machine and computer are not going to injure or kill the operator if they fail. And the operator can pull the plug on a TV, washing-machine, or computer.

    Vehicle manufacturing design is being done with arrogance of the infallibility of their technology and quality systems, keep the costs low so don't include the redundancy or the manual shutoffs, and the fact that Marketing is not going to like having the consumer "alarmed" by the need to have a manual-shutoff there; as that is admitting reality; and if the competitor's aren't doing it, then that's admitting we have an inferior vehicle. That is why I said the NHTSA needs to step-in, in this electronic-age and put some minimum standards in, that all vehicle manufacturers who use a critical electronic system need to put a manual-shutoff in.
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    weight is NOT an issue with a vehicle? are you for real?

    I think as in years past that people can drive vehicles without electronic transmissions, power steering, and power brakes. I'm sure my father did. ;) If not they have gyms, with lift-by-wire machines for you. :)
  • dturrdturr Posts: 70
    If Toyota vehicles have caused the death of one person; is that not one to many.

    The legal people should be involved and let us see the evidence and have a court decide if their is any culpability.

    If Toyota are to blame then owners and drivers have a right to know and decide if they accept the risk of driving a defective vehicle that can or has killed.
  • "But our society certainly has a lot of experience with electronic devices in the last few years; and the failure rate is no where near that good."

    what IS the failure rate of electronics vs. mechanical things? when was the last time an electronic part (cpu, memory?) in your PC died and when was the last time your engine or transmission gave up?

    or more broad stats?

    "That is why I said the NHTSA needs to step-in, in this electronic-age and put some minimum standards in, that all vehicle manufacturers who use a critical electronic system need to put a manual-shutoff in. "

    you can say whatever you want but the fact remains that modern fly-by-wire systems have no mechanical back-up and are perfectly safe, if not safer, to fly. had you been right, they would have insisted on a mechanical back-up there.

    so the fact that they don't is a pretty powerful repudiation of your arguments.
  • so you think weight is NOT an issue with vehicles? or otherwise?

    a "Yes" or "No" would be helpful.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    so in your view, car companies have no reason to redesign their vehicles or add features unless and until to cover up an issue?

    Toyota did not announce the Brake Over-Ride feature being added to the 2011 models, until they came under fire for the San Diego ES350 tragedy. You can draw your own conclusions.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    That is why I said the NHTSA needs to step-in, in this electronic-age and put some minimum standards in, that all vehicle manufacturers who use a critical electronic system need to put a manual-shutoff in.

    I would agree as long as all the automakers are under the same mandate. It would be simple and not add a pound to the already porker cars we are being sold.

    If only Toyota were forced to do that it would be a hard sell at the dealers.

    Oh, by the way if our DBW system screws up just push the panic button. :sick:
  • lzclzc Posts: 483
    With benefit of hindsight, it is unfortunate that Toyota didn't add a brake override feature as a safety measure. They may be guilty of over confidence. But of course they aren't the only large automaker not to install. All will soon install one, I suspect. And the Feds will probably require it.

    Some people will not be happy, though. Anyone pulling a boat out of a lake, or trying to get traction in the snow, regularly applies throttle and brake at the same time. But in the same of safety society regularly limits choice. "You will wear that . . . helmet, seat belt, etc."
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,099
    millwood, when you have vehicles involved in accidents, injuries, or deaths, then absolutely you make that change available to the affected vehicles.
  • 774774 Posts: 101
    http://cbs5.com/video/?id=61614@kpix.dayport.com

    I found this thought it would be of some interest.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,099
    lzc....I have towed a boat. And, I have used the "left foot on brake, right foot in accelerator" simultaneously method of getting it up and down the boat ramp. I also have a 4WD vehicle in order to do that safely.

    All that said, there are other ways aside from simultaneous brake/accelerator application....namely, just using the brakes in backing down a ramp, and using only the accelerator while moving up the ramp.

    Personally, I'd never use a Camry, or any other 2WD only vehicle to accomplish that task.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    So now the TC disable PB will have three functions, push once to disable TC, push again to also disable VSC, and yet again to disable brake/throttle failsafe.

    Allowing the brake and throttle to be used simultaneously until the next engine restart.

    So what's so hard about that...??
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,099
    774...great find. Even better that the dealership in the video is making it available to anyone who asks (not just 2007+ Camry owners).

    Toyota's listening. That's a good thing, too. And, they're taking at least some initial steps to do the proper fix. That's even better.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,099
    wwest....you've lost me.
  • 774774 Posts: 101
    Glad you liked it. I am in hopes my yet to be delivered Sequoia sitting on the dealers lot can get the brake override installed.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,099
    774....I've got a friend who has a year old Sequoia. Very nice vehicle. Best of luck in getting the software fix done.

    I don't understand why Toyota hasn't made some sort of PR on doing the software to the general public. I'd be trumpeting that achievement all over the place, if I were them.
  • 774774 Posts: 101
    My first Sequoia a 2001 was problem free with 98,000 miles on it that I sold 4 months ago to buy the 2010 model. I remain optimistic that Toyota will do the right thing and install the brake override in my current model now or in the near future.
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