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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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  • 774774 Posts: 101
    If you viewed the two videos you can see all the questions that are raised.
    I find it difficult to believe the gas pedal assembly is the entire problem.
    We can only speculate at this point as we do not have all the facts.
  • everything quite succinctly. It is accurate. I've followed this pup from square one and it's incredibly annoying yet accurately true that the SD Lexus dealer was so dumb as to stack mats, but it appears they did. And mats from a SUV, nonetheless!

    I tell ya what, it would seem pretty normal to me if current Toyota owners just wanted to punt their recall notices. If the mats have that much to do with this whole thing and they've got the right mat that is designed for their car installed and it's installed correctly, well then, that just leaves the possible pedal malfunction chance as needing attention, if it does turn out that it needs attention.

    I would also consider continuing to drive my affected Toyota throughout this whole debacle, while Toyota engineers research what else to do I would just go about my way, making sure I know how move the tranny in to 'neutral' gear safely, and how to pull the car over safely in emergency mode, etc., just in case the accelerator were to become stuck, etc. Be prepared like your best Boy Scout would be prepared and do what you can and you should be good and fairly safe with your Toyota. But once Toyota comes up with another fix, take them up on it and get your Toyota repaired.

    No need to freak out here, just prepare properly and don't check your brain in at your door as you're leaving your house to go drive your Toyota and you should be safe.

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    A.) '57 9th grade, Humes, Memphis (yes, THAT one)

    B.) '58 USAF electronics training, Keesler, Scott AFB.

    C.) '59 Pease AFB, B47/KC97 airborne radio/radar maintainance.

    D.) '60 Honeywell Datamatic (Computer) Division, Boston.

    E.) '60 RCA Service Co. Huntsville Al, teaching hawk missile system.

    F.) '61-63 The Boeing Company, QC inspection, minuteman, MT, ND.

    G.) '64 Great Lakes Naval base, teaching electronics.

    F.) '64-68 The Boeing Company, NC machine tool maintainance.

    G.) '68 Electronic Specialties, NC maintainance, Portland, OR.

    H.) '69 Ford Industries, Portland, OR, test engineer, 747 cabin intercom system.

    I.) '69-72 J D Kennedy Corporation, Seattle, Electronic/Computer sales. Applied Dynamics Analog Computers, Data General Nova 16-bit digital computers.

    J.) '72-74 LabWest company, computer sales/service, custom electronics design.

    K.) 74-current. Incorporated LabWest as Strobe Data Inc.
    All that history at Strobedata.com.

    Toyota Prius, 1st gen.
    '00 F/awd RX300, traded for '01
    '90, '91, '92(3), '95 Lexus LS400.
    '00 GS300..gone.

    The '90 LS was a Gates (Bill) trade-in that I purchased for a good friend and customer. '91 was purchased for Strobe's then marketing manager who retired and then later sold it back. I gave it to my brother in Memphis. '95 LS (235K miles) is driven by Strobe's current marketing manager. The black '92 (150K miles) was just given to my grandson. My original '92 (130K miles) is being driven by Strobe's lead engineer, software engineer. The Prius is driven by Strobe's lead hardware engineer.

    Me..Bookworm/Car-nut.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    I have the most wonderful, competent, reliable, conscienous, hard-working empoyees on the planet earth. US citizens all.

    "Heads-down", as opposed to Heads-up, getting noticed, in which case by japanese tradition you're the one that gets your head lopped off if/when things go "south".

    You know something is wrong, keep your mouth shut, "heads-down".

    At the end of my time at Boeing I had maybe 30 employees under my "command". I can only remember 2 or 3 of those that I would have fired given the power.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Yep I agree wholeheartedly.
  • oregonboyoregonboy Posts: 1,653
    So, I was watching news updates on MSNBC.com tonight when a Toyota advertisement came on. It was one of a series for Toyota trucks emphasizing the the "macho lifestyle" that fits so well with Toyota Tunda ownership. ;)

    It was entitled "Ten feet away from a full body cast" and featured young rock-climbers encountering near-death experiences in their quest for an extreme lifestyle... you know, 'cause they are Toyota drivers and that's how Toyota drivers roll.

    "Sticking gas pedals? We laugh at sticking gas pedals! Give us Grizzly bears and sharks and full body casts! Why would we give a rat's [non-permissible content removed] about gas pedals?!?"

    The Irony is Overwhelming... :shades:
  • My biggest concern is that most of the credible reports describe the incident in a way that cannot be explained by a stuck pedal. "I tapped the brake and the car took off", "I did not press down on the gas pedal", "I know my foot had hit the brake and not the gas". Since the cars computer has exclusive control over the throttle position at all times no matter what the driver does, this sounds more like a problem in the electronics. If a bug in the computer has it in la-la land, it may not be accepting any inputs from pedals or switches or anything to change the throttle.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,252
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHotbtd7HJA&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnFp2yLBnNQ

    The second video shows a disassembly of a pedal sensor from a Sequoia. Is there any difference in the other CTS units in other models?

    Do you see how moisture (in Georgia, e.g.) would affect that sensor the way described by toyota as in physically causing it to not move because of friction? There are no moving parts rubbing. I'd like to know your analysis please, of how this part would go defective?

    The first video shows a quick over of the two physical parts involved in operating the throttle body. Is there a problem with the motor controlling the butterfly valve?

    The third thing is the author of the videos suggests the computer control itself has bugs.

    In this forum someone suggested he doesn't know what he's doing because he uses weasel words that indicate it looks okay to him, etcetera. I value your opinion more than that of some of the toyota salespeople shown on TV telling people it's only on older models as they tried to sell a car to a faux customer, for example.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,020
    the author of the videos suggests the computer control itself has bugs.

    I am leaning that direction as well. I have tried to find the Video posted at the beginning of this latest round of Toyota recalls. It was the guy being interviewed that took his WOT Toyota to the dealer while it was wide open. Was their any mention of the actual peddle being stuck down? If not, that eliminates the throttle control in this latest video. I don't see how it could be the culprit unless the return spring is defective. Or moisture in the connector causes shorts, that send mixed signals to the control computer. He did mention that in his tear down of the throttle control unit.

    Toyota has not helped by claiming they got the fix when they don't have a fix. I think in their panic, we get mixed reports from different departments at Toyota.

    Also how did the Tacoma escape this recall? I thought they were all made in the USA.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,189
    ...with my wife today. I wonder if Toyota will be there and, if there, will anything be different or they'll just carry on like they did every other year? I also wonder what the GM and Chrysler displays will be like due to their recent troubles? Could you imagine how empty the show would be without GM, Chrysler, and Toyota? Heck, they could hold the entire show on one floor of the Pennsylvania Convention Center.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,020
    Toyota Supplier Says Sticky Gas Pedals Not the Problem

    CTS Is Shipping New Pedals, But Says Toyota Admits They Have Caused No Serious Accidents or Deaths
    By BRIAN ROSS
    Jan. 29, 2010


    But even the company's own supplier, Indiana-based CTS, says Toyota is far from done in ending the problem of runaway cars -- and that Toyota told it none of the serious accidents or deaths linked to runaway cars was caused by "sticky" gas pedals.

    The pedal's problem was determined by Toyota to be excessive wear of an interior part, caused by condensation build up, making the gas pedal slow to return to idle.

    But Mitch Walorski, director of investor relations for CTS, said Toyota had acknowledged that this "rare set of conditions" had not caused any accidents.

    "They acknowledged that they did not cause any accidents or injuries related to that condition of the pedal," said Walorski.

    Walorski says CTS began shipping a redesigned gas pedal from its plant in Canada this week to Toyota.

    Whether or not sticking gas pedals are the cause of random acceleration in Toyotas, there are many reports of runaway Toyotas that are not on the list of models recalled by the company to replace the pedals.

    Dr. Alan Ostroff of Philadelphia says his Prius, which is not on the recall list, just "took off" on him.

    " I panicked," Ostroff told ABC News. "It's like driving on ice, you hit the brakes and you can't stop." When Ostroff's Prius got within a few feet of hitting the car in front of him, he swerved into oncoming traffic. He says he just missed a huge truck.

    Ostroff said there also no problem with his floor mats. Toyota had previously blamed poorly fitting floor mats for the random acceleration incidents in some of its cars, and issued a recall to replace them. Ostroff now refuses to take his car back out on the road until Toyota finds the problem.


    http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-supplier-sticky-gas-pedals-problem/story?id- =9689799
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    Why in the world is Toyota sending new gas pedal systems to car factories rather than dealerships who want the parts to take care of millions of customers whose pedals may stick????????? :confuse: :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,020
    Toyota is in free fall. They have no clue as to what the problem is. So to try and bamboozle a less than competent NHTSA they will do or say whatever they think will please the powers in Washington. They have never considered the customer important except when they are signing on the line to buy.

    Here is the ABC report that got this latest recall going. The owner of the car is very emphatic that his gas pedal WAS NOT stuck. The car was racing WOT from some internal cause.

    http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/runaway-toyotas-problem-persists-recall/story?id=9- 618735

    Toyota is sending the new throttle devices to their factories so they can build more defective cars and SUVs to sell. As soon as the NHTSA says go.
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    Up to you to decide, but this pretty much sums it all up...not much more to say:

    It appears that Toyota has denied its sudden acceleration problem for more than 5 years. Toyota's recall for floor mat problems is not the end of the story and the company needs to do more to protect its customers and the motoring public.

    In March 2004, the Center For Auto Safety reported about sudden acceleration problems in 2002-03 Toyota Camrys and Solaras and the 2002-03 Lexus ES 300.

    According to AutoSafety.org, by the year 2000, there had been more than 22,600 reported complaints of sudden acceleration.

    More than five years ago, Toyota and NHTSA identified the electronic throttle as the most likely source of the sudden acceleration defect. However, Toyota continued -- and continues today -- to dismiss concerns about its throttle control system and has looked only at the floor mat issue.

    Four years later -- in June 2008 -- the Detroit Free Press and the Motor Authority reported that Toyota had dismissed additional customer complaints that the popular Toyota Tacoma pickup truck had been experiencing the same sudden acceleration issue as other Toyota and Lexus vehicles.

    In 2008 -- like in 2004 -- Toyota refused to take the sudden acceleration issue seriously. Instead of fixing the known problem in its vehicles, Toyota publicly accused its own customers of trying to cash in on Toyota's negative publicity.

    By October 2009, Toyota was forced to finally acknowledge sudden acceleration problems in the following vehicles:

    * 2007-2010 Toyota Camry
    * 2005-2010 Toyota Avalon
    * 2004-2009 Toyota Prius
    * 2005-2010 Toyota Tacoma
    * 2007-2010 Toyota Tundra
    * 2007-2010 Lexus ES350
    * 2006-2010 Lexus IS250
    * 2006-2010 Lexus IS 350

    In October 2009, Toyota Motor Corp. President Akio Toyoda, was forced to publicly apologize for the tragic death of an American family who were killed when their Toyota vehicle suddenly accelerated out of control. This tragedy was recorded by 911 as the passengers desperately tried to slow or stop their out of control Toyota vehicle.

    Despite more than 5 years of documented sudden acceleration problems in Toyota and Lexus vehicles and the tragic death of a family of four caught on tape, Toyota still has refused to accept any responsibility or acknowledge any defect.

    Toyota has ignored customer reports of the sudden acceleration problem for more than 5 years. Despite this growing safety concern, Toyota announced, November 6, 2009, a third-quarter profit of nearly $250 million. In the last 90 days -- while its cars were running out of control -- Toyota made a profit of nearly $3 miller per day. Toyota also increased its sales projection to more than 7 million vehicles for this year.

    Langdon & Emison is aware of more than 2100 reported instances of Toyota sudden acceleration. Instead of listening to its customers and fixing the extremely dangerous sudden acceleration problem -- a problem Toyota has known about for more than 5 years -- Toyota is raking in money and placing even more dangerous cars and trucks on American roads. Toyota needs to take these complaints seriously and fix the millions of dangerous vehicles on our streets and highways. :lemon:
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,252
    >Instead of fixing the known problem in its vehicles, Toyota publicly accused its own customers of trying to cash in on Toyota's negative publicity.

    Seems to be some of that going around these days, doesn't there?
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    We can hear you ! Why are you shouting ? ;) :P
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Go ahead, PITCH me the easy ones.

    Why..??

    Because they are not yet sure the gas pedal assembly is the core problem.

    So divert the public's attention in the same way a magician does.

    Send them to the dealer, the dealer "repairs" a few cars, and then guess what..

    Yes, you guessed it.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    When you go WOT the A/C compressor clutch circuit is opened. That might/would result in a HUGE voltage spike to all of the 12 volt circuits, along with a fairly high level of EMI & RFI (Electro-Magnetic Interference & Radio Frequency Interference) due to inductive kickback.

    Might that cause a Disruption of the engine/transaxle ECU's firmware instruction execution sequence...?

    The way I discovered that my 12 volt battery in our 911/996 was not quite up to snuff was because I would get, randomly, various fault lights (mostly ABS/TC/"VSC"...) on the dash just after beginning a drive, actually getting underway. The engine always started and only in retrospect did I realize it had been cranking slower than normal.

    Does Toyota/etc use any sort of "snubber" network to snub out, eliminate, that voltage spike...??
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    BTW, how is your Camry treating you?

    CTS and Toyota are making the same statement on the gas pedals. Both have said that the posssibility of it occurring is very very rare, Both have said that no injuries or deaths have been caused by the potentially faulty pedals. Accuracy is important.

    With this quote you are distorting facts:
    Four years later -- in June 2008 -- the Detroit Free Press and the Motor Authority reported that Toyota had dismissed additional customer complaints that the popular Toyota Tacoma pickup truck had been experiencing the same sudden acceleration issue as other Toyota and Lexus vehicles.

    It was the NHTSA that closed all the complaints on the Tacomas. They found none of them credible and found no causation.
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    We can hear you ! Why are you shouting ?

    Just amazes me how some people just still don't get it and would still go out and buy one of the recalled vehicles? What other automaker in the past year has been forced to stop selling their cars? :confuse: :confuse:
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    Problem is not the mats; the problem has been traced to a contaminated metal bushing in the pedal assembly that sticks after fairly short usage; IMO, the assembly is too poor a design to be used in such a vital location...it's made of plastic but should be made of metal. And, the bushing should be replaced by sealed ball bearings.

    This appears to be an engineering failure followed by a coverup and that speaks poorly of the company. Toyota is ALWAYS quick to blame their suppliers on any recall or other problem, and they never admit their own fault.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Problem is not the mats; the problem has been traced to a contaminated metal bushing in the pedal assembly that sticks after fairly short usage; IMO, the assembly is too poor a design to be used in such a vital location...it's made of plastic but should be made of metal. And, the bushing should be replaced by sealed ball bearings.

    Where does this 'out of left field' statement come from? But you're right, in these potential cases the problem has nothing to do with the mats.

    Source? Expert knowledge of the subject?
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Posts: 1,739
    He stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night. :shades:
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "..It's made of plastic..."

    Like the new Boeing DreamLiner...??
  • selling this one, because it's not built for any of our consumption quite yet.

    image

    Toyota FT-86

    Work just mushes on for Toyota as they plan on creating a new performance division. Either in addition to or replacing TRD, as the article on Edmunds Inside Line announces. Just a small diversion from all of the confusion and anger perpetrating towards the Japanese automaker right now.

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    By Emily Fredrix And Erin Mcclam, The Associated Press
    ADVERTISEMENT

    Toyota executives have been virtually silent amid a recall of millions of their cars because gas pedals can become dangerously stuck. For their customers, oh, what a feeling - fear, frustration, confusion and anger.

    Since Tuesday, when the Japanese automaker said it would stop making and selling some of its top-selling models, the company has had few answers for dealers and drivers - most notably about when Toyota owners could get their cars fixed and hit the road without worrying.

    "I'm stuck with this car," said Tony Raasch of Hales Corners, Wis., who said he hit another driver in his 2010 Corolla two weeks ago when the car suddenly accelerated. "I really don't know what to do. I just feel - I guess - ripped off is the best way to put it."

    Toyota first recalled 2.3 million vehicles in the U.S. and 270,000 in Canada, including the popular Camry and Corolla, because of faulty gas pedals. Later in the week, it expanded the recall to Europe and recalled 1.1 million more in the U.S. because of floor mats that can catch the accelerator.

    Three days after the recall announcement, there was still no indication of how long it might take to get the affected Toyotas fixed or whether that would involve repairing the gas pedal systems or replacing them altogether.

    It took until Friday for CEO Akio Toyoda to make his first public comments about the recalls. Buttonholed by a camera crew at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, he told Japanese broadcaster NHK: "I am very sorry that we are making our customers feel concerned."

    In its worst crisis in recent memory, the company has communicated with the public mostly through a series of very limited statements. One spokesman, Brian Lyons, said initially he was restricted to describing the problem as "rare and infrequent."

    The company said it began shipping gas pedal parts to its dealers Friday, but could not say when they would arrive. Toyota said details on the fix will be made available sometime next week.

    Among Toyota's famously loyal customer base, frustration and anger mounted through the week.

    Laurie Strong, a nurse from Bristol, R.I., drives a 2010 Camry and said she noticed the gas pedal seemed too sensitive - "0 to 40 in a parking lot" - when she bought the car last summer. She went to the dealership Wednesday and refused to drive it anymore.

    Strong, who was ultimately given a Kia, said she had repeatedly dialled a Toyota hot line only to get a message saying it could not handle calls. A Toyota customer for years, she now says she's put off.

    "I would be less upset and less confused if I had a person on the other end of the phone who could talk to me and tell me what my options are - what they think quite honestly, what the time frame for figuring this out and putting this into motion."

    It made for a maddening week for Toyota dealers, too. Jason Stewart, general manager of a dealership in North Palm Beach, Fla., said he doesn't know what to tell customers and has found out more about the problem from watching the news than from Toyota.

    "People on the phone, they're very scared," said Douglas Lima, the service manager at Toyota Central in downtown Los Angeles. "I received phone calls screaming and yelling and using bad words. You just hear them out."

    On Friday, Toyota's website was featuring bold, brightly coloured ads for its cars and trucks, like the Prius and the 4Runner. At the bottom of the home page was a small strip with a link to information on the recall.

    Even some prominent rental-car companies went further than Toyota did, sending their customers emails throughout the week keeping them posted - in most cases saying they were removing all of the affected models from their fleets.

    Toyota's response, by contrast, has left experts in crisis management scratching their heads. Some wondered why Toyota didn't mount a full-court press - full-page ads in newspapers, executives readily available to the morning shows, ramped-up customer service.

    Toyota is certainly no stranger to advertising. The company alone - not its dealers - spent US$629.4 million on it in the first nine months of last year, according to Kantar Media, which tracks advertising spending.

    A simple, honest, humble message would have gone a long way, said Jonathan Bernstein, president of Bernstein Crisis Management. He said the company should have sent the word out online, by email, with letters - whatever it takes.

    His suggestion: Toyota should say it was as surprised as anyone by the scope of the problem and deeply regrets the inconvenience, and pledge to get up to speed as quickly as possible and provide regular updates.

    "Any time there's a threat to health or safety, there's nothing that creates bigger concern. Nothing that freaks people out more," he said. "You're dealing with very intense feelings, and that requires sensitive and appropriate communications."

    The Associated Press requested interviews Friday with Yoshi Inaba, chairman and CEO of Toyota Motor North America, the company's top U.S. executive. It also requested interviews with other top executives. A spokesman said he would look into the request. Telephone and email messages left for the safety public relations team at Toyota were not returned Friday.

    In the meantime, drivers like Johnathan Jones, who lives in Fort Mitchell, Ala., and has a 30-mile commute each way in his 2009 Tundra, will keep waiting.

    "I've got a $30,000 vehicle and they don't even know how to fix it," he said, huffing. "To me, it's a big safety hazard with my children. I don't want to even put them in there."
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    Yeah, but let's just home the Toyota FT-86 can stop. :)

    Meanwhile, Toyota remains not allowed to sell most of its models:

    image
  • maple2maple2 Posts: 177
    This isn't Toyota's excuse. It's the action that NHTSA forced on Toyota so that stupid owners and others ( like stupid Lexus dealers ) would have a larger margin of error in case these morons decided to try to kill themselves and others by stacking multiple mats on top of one another.

    Basically NHTSA is saying that some in the driving public are going to do stupid things. We're going to force you to try to compensate for these dopes by putting more space in the footwell - just in case someone does an idiotic thing like put an SUV All Weather mat into the footwell of a smaller sedan...then not secure it in place. This recall is the NHTSA thumping its chest


    So IOW you are saying that toyota owners as a group are less intelligent than the rest of the population? Thanks for clearing that up, I always kinda suspected it :shades:
    which would explain why it is only toyota having this problem
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    This would be the position of the NHTSA. Obviously there are stupid people causing accidents and deaths such as the Lexus dealer and others who would put multiple mats on top of one another without securing them. The NHTSA since it couldn't find anything wrong in its own investigations decided that it had to do something in order to seem to be in charge. So it forced Toyota to do this bogus voluntary recall No 1 on reshaping the pedals and removing padding under the pedal. It placated the NHTSA.

    But while investigating these reports, some with mats like in SD and some without mats involved, Toyota on its own discovered the more likely source of the problem where no mats were involved. That would be the sticky pedal mechanism; thus recall No 2. This one IMO his founded more in fact than politics.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I see by your lack of response that
    a) you have no source for your statement
    b) you have no expert data or facts to substantiate it
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