Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

16162646667115

Comments

  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    edited March 2010
    "..Toyota/Lexus is installing brake over ride.."

    Yes, and it would be a fairly sure bet that they are doing it using a failsafe and foolproof method, certainly not something that can be accolplished via a simple "reflash". My guess would be that they are adding another microprocessor module inside the engine/transaxle controlling ECU "module".

    To be really foolproof/failsafe the BTO cannot rely on the original control system processor(s), it MUST be separate and independent in its operation. I would suggest that it continously monitor the brake light switch, the brake fluid pressure sensor level, the throttle plate position sensors, and the EFI PWM dutycycle.

    If the brake light switch OR the brake fluid pressure sensor output indicates the brakes are being applied AND the throttle plate is above idle OR the EFI PWM dutycycle is too high THEN open the ground return circuit for the EFI injectors.

    "..they should do it it to every vehicle they've produced since 2004.."

    As I hope you can now see, that would REQUIRE a swap out, exchange of every engine/transaxle control module.

    It's really is unreasonable for Toyota to take on those expenses before a certain and sure determination of base cause is determined.
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 40,997
    "The new number of 52 deaths was surfaced by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, part of the Department of Transportation. Federal officials haven't formally confirmed the links between deaths and Toyota defects but have received a spike in complaints since Toyota began a series of big recalls in October.

    Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said Tuesday his agency may recommend that every new vehicle sold in the U.S. be equipped with brakes that can override the gas pedal."

    Government weighs requiring brake overrides (MSNBC)

    Moderator
    Need help navigating? stever@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • wayne52wayne52 Posts: 26
    Time to get your game hat on and solve the million dollar question:

    Unintended Acceleration - Find the Cause

    (It was going to be $64,000 dollars, but inflation set in).


    It's George Bush's fault (if it's still not too late to tag him). Just keep the cash as the answer to this (and any other) problem was just too obvious. :)
  • Yes that would be a workable approach. The approach taken in several models that have brake override simply use a second processor or chip independent of the main computer and that is it's only job, to perform the brake override function. In models such as Toyota that do not have this separate hardware to begin with, it would take a long time to develop retrofit kit for existing cars. Thus the only quick approach available for Toyota to add this now is the reflash of the existing software.
  • Thanks. I'm not sure how many ways it needs to be said, but that was a good one. :)
  • I checked. and it said that there are NO recalls on my vehicle, made in north america 2009 corolla.
  • gizzer777gizzer777 Posts: 335
    edited March 2010
    Next step is to get a service History on your Corolla. Toyota USA can supply and your dealer should be able to pull it up too!...

    I have not heard of it but I thought all 2009 NA produced Corollas had the CTS pedal...perhaps not. Suggest you call Toyota USA and get the skivvy. Also you should be on the recall list for the corolla Floormat recall yet to take place.

    (I am among those that do not think it is the pedal either...But I will follow the Manufacturer's recommendations.... to avoid negligent liability on me, possibility in case of "an incident")

    They have been known to screw up from time to time :P ....better safe than sorry!!! If your 09 was recently purchased, it may already have the "shimmy" but I am guessing.

    Here is a link to determine if you have a Denso(No recall YET) or CTS pedal if you have not seen it yet...might be of help!

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/exclusive-ttac-takes-apart-both-toyota-gas-peda- - ls/

    BTW: what are the 1st 3 digits of your VIN? (a 17 digit number!)

    Good Luck with it
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    You can also google Toyota USA Newsroom. Press releases and announcements are at bottom of page, then can go to next, etc. Hopefully this may help keep you more up to date on what Toyota has actually documented. Some bloggers have posted they got no calls/letters.

    Good luck.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,275
    wwest...no disagreement. In order for Toyota to stick to their research and promises of making their customers' safety and their quality paramount, then they need to implement the brake over ride system....in their UA affected vehicles. If it takes just a reflash...do it.

    If it takes an ECU and/or EPROM swapout plus electronics/software reflash, DO IT.

    No price can be put upon the future safety of Toyota vehicles, and of those who encounter those drivers/vehicles on a daily basis....PERIOD!
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Please excuse my ignorance.

    Questions:
    (1)Do we really know how/what Toyota is actually going to do re: brake override?

    I now understand the preferred system. Sure didn't when I started posting here. Thanks for the info.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,035
    edited March 2010
    At this time there is NO steering recall on the 09-10 Corolla. Just an investigation of thousands of complaints on erratic steering. I would look for one shortly as Chevy just recalled 1.3 million Cobalts with the same steering system as your Corolla. As usual Toyota is late to the game.
  • gizzer777gizzer777 Posts: 335
    edited March 2010
    100% correct!!!

    But there IS a recall on 09-2010 Floormats (I would imagine this recall will turn out to be for the all weather mats but they have not said) in Corolla that was added a few weeks ago. THAT recall does show on my VIN when I run it, and I have the oem carpet mats!.

    ...My dealer did not even know that Corollas were added to the floormat recall a couple of weeks ago! (communication again)

    They were also unaware of the Oil consumption on early 09 TSB...UNTIL I SHOWED A PRINTED COPY TO THEM! It took the service manager (a great guy ) to get it done for me. My 09 Corolla drank 1/2 qt of oil in the 1st 700 miles too!

    They are also a good dealer IMHO
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "..do we really know..."

    Not anywhere I have seen.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    I'd bet that Toyota would choose the most cost effective method to install the brake overide. Course it may not work as intended as was previously explained. Does that matter to Toyota at this point? Don't think so.
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    CHRISTINE TIERNEY AND NATHAN HURST
    The Detroit News

    Washington --Toyota Motor Corp. officials insisted Tuesday in the strongest terms yet that there was no evidence that an electronic defect might be causing unintended acceleration of its vehicles despite compelling new data suggesting a link.

    Claims data from insurer State Farm disclosed Tuesday suggests a strong connection between the introduction of electronic throttle control, also known as drive by wire, and events where drivers of Toyotas couldn't control their cars.

    Claims relating to unintended acceleration in Toyota Camry sedans more than tripled in 2002 after the automaker introduced electronic throttle control in the model. Similar claims relating to the smaller Corolla nearly tripled in 2005, after it was equipped with electronic throttle control, according to State Farm, which warned the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration about the trends.

    But Toyota officials on Tuesday maintained that the problem wasn't with the electronics, as they did in two hearings last week.

    Get ready for 0% financing for 8 years on the 2010 Toyota Camry...its just around the corner!
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,275
    Sharon....I think it's a legit question regarding UA in Toyotas. You posted a video of an independent test of the alleged "sticky pedal" which seems to point out they aren't defective....in the cold, in the heat, being submerged in water, being literally baked....it still worked. To date, we've yet to see one of these failed "sticky pedals". No one has been able to examine one that's failed.

    On the other hand, we have the testimony from Dr Gilbert, the Smiths, and countless others stating that it wasn't the floormats, nor the "sticky pedal" that caused their Toyota UA.

    So, where does that lead us? Right back to Dr Gilbert who showed how it could be the electronics/software. And, we've got first person experiences of people (at least those who survived) who state that even though they followed the UA procedure (shifting into neutral, stomping on the brakes, attempting to turn their Toyota/Lexus vehicle off), that points to the same thing.

    Toyota says "no way" (despite all the evidence to the contrary). They haven't produced any of their alleged research ruling out software/electronics testing. And, have admitted that they don't know what's causing it in as many as 70% of the UA complaints against Toyota.

    They did hire a 3rd party, Exponent to help them ascertain the "why" in their UA research in their vehicles. But, Exponent is an expert in litigation research. So, it doesn't take a brain surgeon as to the direction Toyota is going. They want to slog through the courts, tying them up for years. Congress seems to be the entity that will push this thing forward, more quickly, much to Toyota's chagrin, as Toyota is now being investigated by no less than 3 Federal entities.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,035
    edited March 2010
    We should accept that it is Toyota's problem to resolve. They designed or paid some company to design their DBW throttle systems. As soon as they implemented DBW the complaints started pouring in. Would Toyota have US believe that drivers all of a sudden got a case of the fat foot hitting the throttle instead of the brake? We know that the floor mats and the poorly designed throttle peddle caused a few of the complaints and accidents with deaths. It looks like Toyota trumped up the sticky peddle from CTS to explain the other cases of UA. The NHTSA needs to hold Toyota responsible for every case of UA until they get the problem solved. Forcing the customer to prove they have a problem with UA is unacceptable.

    Why does it take Toyota longer to accept their responsibilities than it does the other automakers? Maybe it is the free ride they have been given by the NHTSA and a few rags like CR.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,303
    >Why does it take Toyota longer to accept their responsibilities than it does the other automakers? Maybe it is the free ride they have been given by the NHTSA and a few rags like CR.

    Add in the fact that they are a Japanese company operating from Japan. That's where the profits go, and doling out those profits to "fix" things here requires permission from "headquarters"--per Lentz's testimony. He did not have authority to change things and fix things.

    I find humor that the steering gear problem in Corollas and apparently a similar motor in Cobalts is by a company partly owned by toyota.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,035
    That was my reference to Toyota being slow on the uptake. Why was Chevy able to determine that steering motor was a potential hazard and Toyota is still investigating?

    My thought is Toyota handed it to the legal department before they give it to engineering. Toyota is waiting for a solid death count before they do the recall. Of course they have 8.5 million people waiting to get the the "SHIM".
  • popsavalonpopsavalon Posts: 231
    During my daily driving, there are certain things that require the use of some throttle/brake application at the same time (parallel parking on a hill, pulling up on ramps for oil changes, etc.). What logic is used by brake override to allow these useful interactions to continue? Does someone on this board have actual experience with Toyota brake override on newer vehicles?
  • beachfish2beachfish2 Posts: 177
    A U.S. senator made the perfect suggestion during yesterday's hearing with the Toyota QA guy and head Prius engineer.

    "A U.S. Senator said Tuesday that the U.S. should consider banning Japanese-made cars until Japan's government guarantees the vehicles have no defects."

    No, there's no hysteria. BWAAAAHAHAHAHA

    Did we all fall down the rabbit hole with Alice?
  • gizzer777gizzer777 Posts: 335
    uh oh...I did not think most here are surprised at this

    pedal and floormat "fix" do not seem to be working........

    http://cbs13.com/national/Toyota.recall.repair.2.1533510.html
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,035
    Did anyone Really think the Shim scam would work. I am very curious about any brake override that is supposedly installed. If that report is accurate I am thinking that Toyota is trying to pull a fast one. Here is the statement from Toyota.

    TORRANCE, Calif., February 22, 2010 – Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc. today announced that it will install a brake override system on an expanded range of customers’ vehicles to provide an additional measure of confidence. This braking system enhancement will automatically reduce engine power when the brake pedal and the accelerator pedal are applied simultaneously under certain driving conditions.

    The following year models have been added to the list of vehicles which will receive brake override upgrade: 2005-2010 Tacoma, 2009-2010 Venza and 2008-2010 Sequoia. Toyota previously announced that the system would be installed onto the 2007-2010 Camry, 2005-2010 Avalon, and the 2007-2010 Lexus ES 350, 2006-2010 IS 350 and 2006-2010 IS 250 models.

    The brake override system is not an integral part of the recall remedy, but is instead being added as an extra measure of confidence for Toyota owners.


    Customer complaint:

    In one of the reports filed with NHTSA, a 2010 Camry owner who had their car repaired Feb. 12 in Michigan said it accelerated up a snow bank just five days later after receiving special brake override software, the complaint said.

    "Had the incident happened one minute earlier, I would have been in a high car/pedestrian area and would not have been able to avoid an accident," the consumer wrote. "The fix done by Toyota is not the fix for the acceleration problem."


    How did this customer get the upgrade 10 days before Toyota made the announcement?
  • gizzer777gizzer777 Posts: 335
    gagrice...I must admit I did not even read the portion about the over ride fix in that report (MY BAD). Since I have a Corolla the mat and shim portion interested me....Your point is well taken,
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,275
    edited March 2010
    gagrice...we knew it was just a matter of time (well, looked like it didn't take too long) that someone would make note that the "sticky pedal" and floormat fix wasn't the answer (even though Toyota testified that it was THE ironclad fix).

    WE also knew that brake over ride wasn't a fix for Toy/Lex. We did know that it was a way for them to make it easier to control a Toy/Lex that is affected by UA, though.

    So, none of this is surprising.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,798
    If you have not heard, GM is recalling Cobalt and Pontiac G5 autos for a steering issue. This recall is related to the Toyota recalls because the supplier of the part(s) in question also supplies parts to Toyota.
  • ingvaringvar Posts: 205
    Oooooops I did it again, moving forward even when you don't want to :P
    I'm so happy that get rid of my toyota(is350) couple month ago with no loss.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    edited March 2010
    Has unintended accleration been found on manual transmission models of Camry or Corola? If so, then drivers could merely throw out the clutch, shift to neutral.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,303
    >in question also supplies parts to Toyota.

    And is partly owned by toyota. Surprise. Surprise.
Sign In or Register to comment.