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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Could this be a little "war of words" after GM make statment at an auto show claiming the supplier of steering was to blame and then made sure to mention Toyta is partial owner?? Toyota responding with a few claims of their own against GM for their bankruptcy avoidance w skipping out on Nummi workers??
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,918
    Oddly enough, the moderators agree - please leave political discussion to forums better suited for such conversation. We already have a number of topic-oriented discussions that are appropriate for UAW talk, and we even host a few politically-oriented discussions. This is not one of them.

    I see a lot of talk about the recall repair being a "bust." Has anyone here had a repair done under this recall? Do you feel it worked for you?

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  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    Kirstie,where is the political discussion thread?Cant find it. How do you go to it from the main Edmunds forums carspace page??
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,534
    Forget Bushisms, Biden Gaffes, We have Obama blunders is one of which I'm aware, if the hosts don't mind my interjecting the link.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,182
    edited March 2010
    My intentions were not to turn this into a thread about politics. I apologize if I offended you. I was sharing a link (one of many) that accuses the recent spat with Toyota nothing more than (to sum up politely) a smear campaign brought on by our Government and in an attempt to prop up it's 50 billion dollar investment in GM and to line the pockets of Attorneys and organized labor which stands to benefit from all this.

    At a maximum, sudden acceleration in Toyotas has led to 34 deaths since 2000 according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, putting it somewhere between slipping in the bathtub and being struck by lightning as a Leading Cause of Death. By way of comparison, roughly 40,000 people die in highway accidents every year. Even if all the Toyota fatalities had occurred in one year, which they didn't, that would represent less than 1/1000 of all automotive fatalities.

    If the government were really concerned about safety, they'd address the other 40,000 deaths, but that's not the point. The point is to distract voters and to enrich their union supporters


    Btw, not that it matters here but I'm pretty much non-partisan and I also voted for our current president so I have no reason to bash the party I elected. But the intentions with this whole situation are so glaringly obvious, I have lost a great deal of respect and frankly I am insulted by how low these jackholes will go to justify their actions. :sick:
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,534
    edited March 2010
    Along the same lines, I heard on an overnight talk show that the toyota problems are caused by sabotage. Also an outrageous tenet.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    If Toyota suffered from any sabotage, it was by their own hand and their own arrogance.

    Toyota tried to bury their problems and sold their unsafe products to the world. They are now paying the price and will continue to pay the price with customers who will not jump to buy their products so readily. Toyota, by their own arrogance, has ruined any kind of trust they created with their loyal customers and any potentially new customers.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Actually - please do not feel you offended me at all. I am not (not to be mentioned here) either.

    I apologize if I offended you.

    My point was just to mention lots of news reports out there. Lots coming at us, and so difficult to keep up with them.

    I too, wish other causes of accidents were being addressed as well. But the "hot issue" now seems to be SUA/UA. Can be good, as maybe this one cause can finally be addressed.

    NHTSA has now been raised to possible total of 52 deaths as testified at last hearing, but still need to be investigated further to see if actually is a correct number. Seems like when this all started NHTSA had only one death, and then has steadily gone up. May be related to complaint categoriztion, DHTSA being a voluntary data base, etc. ???

    Thank you for letting us know how you see this. Great to see other opinions. I see this coming to be because of the San Diego crash and because driver was CHP officer..And the CHP released 911 tape. That was a heartbreaking tragedy. Four lives lost. Press pressure - story, facts came out regarding the timeline of US/SUA. Human lives were lost and hundreds of accidents possibly linked to SUA/UA exist. Just do not feel the loss of human life can just be disregarded. Numbers are just too high.

    As far as the actual numbers of UA/SUA we still don't know for sure. Toyota has many, NHTSA has some, some elsewhere, some never lodged. This is all just voluntary reporting. Studies done from NHTSA is good. Would stats be same if manufacturers legally requited to submit their complaints? I have no idea.
  • greg128greg128 Posts: 372
    edited March 2010
    .I found this in my local paper yesterday. (Long Island Newsday) I think it speaks for itself ...

    image
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    This is a good article regarding EDR's, complaints, and is good for comparing what other manufacturer's doing. Came from business section under a market search of Toyota and news releases. Have seen other reports making similiar claims about Toyota and EDR's. Good to see other manufacturers are doing already. This would be great to help accident reconstruction. CHP/police really need this. Must compare with the other articles I have bookmarked.

    All is legal at present, since law has not been implemented as yet. September 1, 2012 appears to be date so far. Am not sure why it took almost 12 years to become law, when technology has been there all along.

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/science/6897637.html
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,972
    edited March 2010
    on the toyota 3.5 V6.
    it is an interesting engine in that it has 2 fuel injection systems.
    one is the common port injection type and the other is direct injection.
    basically, it uses the port injection early on and phases out its' function as the direct injection system takes over. the computer decides how much of the load each system provides.
  • Looks like a car, possibly a 5 - 8 year old Toyota Camry, crashed into a wall.

    But what evidence is there that unintended acceleration was behind the crash?

    Maybe the driver was talking on his cell phone. Or looking out the window. Or dozed off for a couple of seconds.

    The picture alone doesn't address the UA issue.
  • Here is some evidence of a different sort. This is a Toyota internal July 6 2009 slide presentation from Inaba (who was at congressional hearing). The second to last slide titled Key Safety Issues includes Sudden Acceleration on multiple models. Inaba and Toyoda testified that the first they were aware of a sudden acceleration issue was in November.

    The last slide titled Toyota Wins, under Defects says "negotiated...no defect found" for Sudden Acceleration saving $100 million. During the hearing, Inaba testified that he was not aware of any claimed savings of $100 million for negotiating a deal with NHTSA.
    Internal Toyota Documents Related To Recall
  • fintailfintail Posts: 34,333
    I think that's around an 03 model. Looks like a typical Camry driver parking job ;)
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Yes, I have this same document saved. During hearing Inaba claimed he could not remember this presentation. Claimed it was during his orientation. But I had some difficulty believing him. His name is on document. And could appears/mean he gave this presentation.

    Also he claims he was unaware of $100 million saved re: UA.SUA. - appears is a legal strategy stance approach only. He has long professional background with Toyota. Very difficult to believe him.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    This is Toyota's crisis. It was their vehicle in San Diego crash. And all else that has become public since then. So many misstatements, and inconsistancies in statements. Etc, etc, etc. I kept hoping Toyota would put out some good solid proof to stomp out the bad publicity. That never happened.

    And if it could have been another manufacturer if they had hx & higher complaints too. None of them are immune.

    Good lesson - have excellent crisis management plan in place.
  • carbuff1171carbuff1171 Posts: 77
    edited March 2010
    Here is one person's opinion. They have proved that certain sensor malfunctions are not detectable by the ECM. However I think that finding is unrelated to what is happening. Symptoms being reported indicate the opposite is occurring. A malfunctioning ECM gets into a state where it cannot process inputs from perfectly good sensors whether it be the pedal sensor, shifter position sensor, ignition off sensor, and in the case of the Prius the brake depressed sensor (which is supposed to activate brake override logic and bring the engine to idle). At the same time, the malfunctioning ECM has instructed the ETC to move to the Full Open position. Odds are this malfunctioning ECM won't be logging any information in the EDR any more either (in cars that have it). This all seems too obvious for the experts to be missing it.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,182
    LOL, cars jumping ther curb happen all the time. This is really grasping at straws putting Toyota on the spot for an incident as common as a traffic ticket... :sick:
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,207
    Sound like this knucklehead at work saying GM sabotaged Toyotas with Mexican parts when stories of Toyota's SUA first broke out. Wow, then that's the most successful act of sabotage in history to take out 10 million cars of various years and models!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,173
    Who do you believe? CR would have US believe that Ford had nearly as many complaints as Toyota. Ford was not even close in any way you look at that list. I don't think there is anyway to spin away Toyota's UA problem. They need to find the problem and fix it. 7.5 complaints per 100 thousand cars in 2009 MY is unacceptable. GM was only 0.4 complaints per 100 thousand. And they sold a lot more cars than ToyLex.

    It would be interesting to see if any of the VW/Audi & BMW complaints ended in crashes. Did their brake override systems work? Mercedes did not have a single complaint. It would seem they have their DBW working right. Maybe Toyota could talk to them and spend some of their $billions on better technology.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "..too obvious for the experts to be missing it..."

    Knowing what is happening, or probably happening, might be a LONG way from finding the causative factor(s).
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    Nice chart.

    It is interesting to note that Chrysler products get ragged on by quite a few people, but yet in this graphic have a better vehicle than Toyota, Honda or Nissan.

    Chrysler vehicles may not be the most sophisticated vehicles or fuel efficient vehicles out there but they are ruggedly built. I own a Jeep Liberty with a diesel and love it.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,182
    I don't have a whole lot of negativity towards Chrysler, they've been through a rough decade being passed around by Daimler and then grossly mislead by Cerebus.

    I agree that your Liberty is a fine vehicle, gas mileage notwithstanding on the petrol models). I do recall however that Jeep met with and implemented Toyotas production methods when it came to setting up the assembly lines to ensure top quality. In doing so the Liberty is one of the higher rated Chryco products for quality and reliability.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    edited March 2010
    I don't have a whole lot of negativity towards Chrysler, they've been through a rough decade being passed around by Daimler and then grossly mislead by Cerebus.

    When Daimler merged with Chrysler some years ago, it was a big mistake for Chrysler. Daimler raped Chrysler and left them with practically nothing except a little of their, Daimler, DNA.

    Chrysler was dumped on Cerebrus as an empty shell of itself and all Cerebrus wanted to do was make money off of Chrysler by selling it for more than it was worth and not make money by improving Chrysler itself.

    As to quality of assembly, my Liberty is as tight as a drum. No squeaks or rattles anywhere even on the worst of roads or off roads. The fit and finish are still first class in spite of five years of D.C. traffic and D.C. weather.
  • carbuff1171carbuff1171 Posts: 77
    edited March 2010
    "Knowing what is happening, or probably happening, might be a LONG way from finding the causative factor(s)."

    Agreed, but that was not my point of saying "..too obvious for the experts to be missing it..."
    1. If we have experts doing extensive research on whether the ECM can detect a faulty sensor, that tells me that their initial hypothesis of "what is probably happening" is wrong and not based on evidence right in front of them. Those mistakes only mean it will take longer than necessary to get to the causative factor.
    2. If there are Toyota models that already have brake override programmed-in that are experiencing SUA (e.g. Prius), why would anyone accept the claim, even for one minute, that installing brake override in other models is a fail-safe just in case the problem is not really the pedals?

    Part of my job includes investigating software bugs that can cause malfunctions analogous to these, just not in autos. They can be nasty to get to the bottom of even when it is happening on a computer that is "sitting still". Faced with figuring it out when it is happening to a computer careening at over 100 mph creates a greater challenge. On one hand I can sympathize with how difficult this is, but once lied to, my sympathy fades quickly.

    I had a similar feeling about the obvious being overlooked during the hearings. The early highlights were the testimony of a Lexus ES350 owner experiencing SUA and the grilling of the NHTSA chief about why they did not put two-and-two together sooner. Then, did even one congress-person put two-and-two together and ask Toyoda why no Lexus models were included in the actions taken against the Toyota models (freeze sales, recall)? There were people driving away in their new brand new ES350's the whole time. Toyota models are one thing, but how much worse it would be for Toyota if they tarnished Lexus' reputation by including them?
  • tomjavatomjava Posts: 136
    Ha3x.. VW/AUDI has more UA than Toyota! So much so about DBW theory or other ECM malfunction, yet no one mentions about the driver's skill to operate a motor vehicle.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,534
    edited March 2010
    Here comes another round of obtuse answers to direct questions. I notice also the Americanizing of the company. Where's Toyoda telling us how safe they are.

    Now they're spending money on advertising to counter what they want the question to be and not what is actually the question.

    What's important is the behind the scenes things that happen to affect how other sources will portray toyota to the stakeholders in this fiasco. Buy a little influence here; buy a little there. Soon all these sources will be telling the US buyer how great and how safe the cars are. People won't know about the backroom dealing that bought the frontline statements. Sort of like DC buying influence with money to Nebraska or giving a judgeship to a reluctant legislator's relative.

    Yesterday the news was about cars with the faux fixes having UIA. Today toyo's telling us about how the cars a failsafe. :P

    image
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