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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    Dealers: Recalled vehicle owners must wait for repairs on faulty gas pedals

    DETROIT - Toyota is sending new gas pedal systems to car factories rather than dealerships who want the parts to take care of millions of customers whose pedals may stick.

    Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons confirms information in a company e-mail obtained by the AP that says parts were shipped to factories. Lyons says that's how the company normally distributes parts.

    But some dealers say they should get the parts first because they now have no way to fix the pedals on any of the 4.2 million recalled vehicles affecting eight U.S. models.

    Lyons said Toyota did not send the parts to dealers because it has not decided whether to have the systems in the recalled vehicles repaired or replaced.

    But dealers and customers were unhappy with the delays in getting parts.

    Earl Stewart, owner of a Toyota dealership in North Palm Beach, Florida, said his service technicians might not know the details of how to fix the gas pedal systems, but they know to install new ones, and the parts should have gone to dealers rather than factories.


    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35143209/ns/business-autos/

    It seems strange that Toyota has not displayed these so-called corroded throttles attributed to CTS. Could this just be Toyota buying time to find what is really wrong with their systems?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,045
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnFp2yLBnNQ

    This video shows the internals of the CTS pedal. I don't see where the condesate and polishing due to friction with aging have the potential to cause a problem. There's no mechanical contact as in an actual potentiometer.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHotbtd7HJA&feature=related

    This one sums up the potential areas for the problems to occur clearly. Sounds like firmware problem in at least some of the cases.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Based on your statement you don't understand the issues. After all this time and all these posts haven't you yet understood what happened in these two separate recalls?
  • Actually if you check the NHTSA site, you will find several "vehicle speed control" incidents for the Avalon. Not as many as the Camry, but then there are not as many Avalons on the road.
  • I agree with your last statement about sounding like a firmware problem. I believe many of the people's confidence in what they experienced to be credible. When they say they did not depress the gas, or they just tapped the brake and the car took off, or they "felt the pedal pull away from their foot", a sticking pedal explanation does not hold water. A plausible cause would be that cruise control was activated and set at an undesirable speed. Then the question is whether the firmware that made that logic decision is still accepting inputs to change that setting.
  • 774774 Posts: 101
    Are you saying the vehicles involved in the first recall have a different type gas pedal assembly from the ones in the current recall ?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Not even close. So how is it that you can complain about purported intents if you don't understand the subject you're posting about?

    The floor mat excuse once you look into it is not going to fly.

    This isn't Toyota's excuse. It's the action that NHTSA forced on Toyota so that stupid owners and others ( like stupid Lexus dealers ) would have a larger margin of error in case these morons decided to try to kill themselves and others by stacking multiple mats on top of one another.

    Basically NHTSA is saying that some in the driving public are going to do stupid things. We're going to force you to try to compensate for these dopes by putting more space in the footwell - just in case someone does an idiotic thing like put an SUV All Weather mat into the footwell of a smaller sedan...then not secure it in place. This recall is the NHTSA thumping its chest.
  • 774774 Posts: 101
    So you are saying the NHTSA forced this floor mat excuse on Toyota.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    ... but the guy admits to a lot of missing knowledge about the pedal and the assembly.

    He simply states that in his opinion it's a good design but it might be flawed but he doesn't know for certain.

    Now as regards to facts. CTS has stated publicly that it is redesigning that pedal under instructions from Toyota to make it better, but they imply that the redesign didn't make it into the field yet. CTS is the true source of knowledge and the owner of the patent here. If in it's opinion, implying also Toyota's opinion, that the pedal needed improvements then it leaves this guy twisting in the wind.

    It's interesting to see inside the pedal but he like almost everybody herein has no facts and no inside knowledge of what the real defect is. He admits that he simply doesn't understand. Another non-factual opinion.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    No you're misunderstanding what I posted. My point about not understanding the two very different issues here.

    The NHTSA issued a recall on certain Toyota vehicles back in 2007 based on mats trapping the gas pedal. They found a significant number of people were putting multiple mats on top of one another and not securing them in place. This could cause the top mat to slide forward and to trap the pedal in WOT. In this recall owners and dealers were instructed NOT to stack mats top of one another and to make sure that the mats were secured to the anchors in the floor. ( ISSUE No 1 )

    However some people since then have complained about the pedals becoming stuck when there were no mats involved. ( ISSUE No 2 )

    Last August a CHP driver and his family were killed in an ES350 Lexus loaner car and the NHTSA after its investigation found that the likely source was..........
    ..the Lexus dealer stacked two mats on top of each other
    ..the Lexus dealer used an All Weather mat from an SUV ( ! ) which was too large for the footwell sedan
    ..the Lexus dealer didn't secure the top mat in place and it slid forward apparently

    Everyone of these actions was in contravention of the 2007 recall. It was simply stupid and possibly criminal. ( ISSUE No 1 again )

    So what should be done? Due to the high visibility of this case the NHTSA had to do something to try to protect certain stupid people ( like the Lexus dealer ) from inadvertantly trying to kill themselves and others by doing idiotic things. The NHTSA can't have a 'safety rider' going along with every owner in the US reminding them "Don't do stupid things". So they forced Toyota to reshape the gas pedal to make it shorter and to take padding out of the floorpan. In this way if someone ignored ALL the warnings and still tried to do something really stupid like stack two or three mats on each other and not secure them there would be a larger margin of error. ( ISSUE No 1 again ). This is the large recall back in November. It's the NHTSA thumping its chest saying "See what we did."

    But all along a few isolated people were still complaining about the pedal being stuck like the Avalon driver in NJ. He did nothing wrong and had his OEM mats secured properly ( ISSUE No 2 ). This is the voluntary recall last Tuesday where Toyota determined that certain isolated CTS pedals might 'become sticky' over time and use under certain specific circumstances. It has nothing to do with mats, never did.
  • 774774 Posts: 101
    If you viewed the two videos you can see all the questions that are raised.
    I find it difficult to believe the gas pedal assembly is the entire problem.
    We can only speculate at this point as we do not have all the facts.
  • everything quite succinctly. It is accurate. I've followed this pup from square one and it's incredibly annoying yet accurately true that the SD Lexus dealer was so dumb as to stack mats, but it appears they did. And mats from a SUV, nonetheless!

    I tell ya what, it would seem pretty normal to me if current Toyota owners just wanted to punt their recall notices. If the mats have that much to do with this whole thing and they've got the right mat that is designed for their car installed and it's installed correctly, well then, that just leaves the possible pedal malfunction chance as needing attention, if it does turn out that it needs attention.

    I would also consider continuing to drive my affected Toyota throughout this whole debacle, while Toyota engineers research what else to do I would just go about my way, making sure I know how move the tranny in to 'neutral' gear safely, and how to pull the car over safely in emergency mode, etc., just in case the accelerator were to become stuck, etc. Be prepared like your best Boy Scout would be prepared and do what you can and you should be good and fairly safe with your Toyota. But once Toyota comes up with another fix, take them up on it and get your Toyota repaired.

    No need to freak out here, just prepare properly and don't check your brain in at your door as you're leaving your house to go drive your Toyota and you should be safe.

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    A.) '57 9th grade, Humes, Memphis (yes, THAT one)

    B.) '58 USAF electronics training, Keesler, Scott AFB.

    C.) '59 Pease AFB, B47/KC97 airborne radio/radar maintainance.

    D.) '60 Honeywell Datamatic (Computer) Division, Boston.

    E.) '60 RCA Service Co. Huntsville Al, teaching hawk missile system.

    F.) '61-63 The Boeing Company, QC inspection, minuteman, MT, ND.

    G.) '64 Great Lakes Naval base, teaching electronics.

    F.) '64-68 The Boeing Company, NC machine tool maintainance.

    G.) '68 Electronic Specialties, NC maintainance, Portland, OR.

    H.) '69 Ford Industries, Portland, OR, test engineer, 747 cabin intercom system.

    I.) '69-72 J D Kennedy Corporation, Seattle, Electronic/Computer sales. Applied Dynamics Analog Computers, Data General Nova 16-bit digital computers.

    J.) '72-74 LabWest company, computer sales/service, custom electronics design.

    K.) 74-current. Incorporated LabWest as Strobe Data Inc.
    All that history at Strobedata.com.

    Toyota Prius, 1st gen.
    '00 F/awd RX300, traded for '01
    '90, '91, '92(3), '95 Lexus LS400.
    '00 GS300..gone.

    The '90 LS was a Gates (Bill) trade-in that I purchased for a good friend and customer. '91 was purchased for Strobe's then marketing manager who retired and then later sold it back. I gave it to my brother in Memphis. '95 LS (235K miles) is driven by Strobe's current marketing manager. The black '92 (150K miles) was just given to my grandson. My original '92 (130K miles) is being driven by Strobe's lead engineer, software engineer. The Prius is driven by Strobe's lead hardware engineer.

    Me..Bookworm/Car-nut.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    I have the most wonderful, competent, reliable, conscienous, hard-working empoyees on the planet earth. US citizens all.

    "Heads-down", as opposed to Heads-up, getting noticed, in which case by japanese tradition you're the one that gets your head lopped off if/when things go "south".

    You know something is wrong, keep your mouth shut, "heads-down".

    At the end of my time at Boeing I had maybe 30 employees under my "command". I can only remember 2 or 3 of those that I would have fired given the power.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Yep I agree wholeheartedly.
  • oregonboyoregonboy Posts: 1,653
    So, I was watching news updates on MSNBC.com tonight when a Toyota advertisement came on. It was one of a series for Toyota trucks emphasizing the the "macho lifestyle" that fits so well with Toyota Tunda ownership. ;)

    It was entitled "Ten feet away from a full body cast" and featured young rock-climbers encountering near-death experiences in their quest for an extreme lifestyle... you know, 'cause they are Toyota drivers and that's how Toyota drivers roll.

    "Sticking gas pedals? We laugh at sticking gas pedals! Give us Grizzly bears and sharks and full body casts! Why would we give a rat's [non-permissible content removed] about gas pedals?!?"

    The Irony is Overwhelming... :shades:
  • My biggest concern is that most of the credible reports describe the incident in a way that cannot be explained by a stuck pedal. "I tapped the brake and the car took off", "I did not press down on the gas pedal", "I know my foot had hit the brake and not the gas". Since the cars computer has exclusive control over the throttle position at all times no matter what the driver does, this sounds more like a problem in the electronics. If a bug in the computer has it in la-la land, it may not be accepting any inputs from pedals or switches or anything to change the throttle.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,045
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHotbtd7HJA&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnFp2yLBnNQ

    The second video shows a disassembly of a pedal sensor from a Sequoia. Is there any difference in the other CTS units in other models?

    Do you see how moisture (in Georgia, e.g.) would affect that sensor the way described by toyota as in physically causing it to not move because of friction? There are no moving parts rubbing. I'd like to know your analysis please, of how this part would go defective?

    The first video shows a quick over of the two physical parts involved in operating the throttle body. Is there a problem with the motor controlling the butterfly valve?

    The third thing is the author of the videos suggests the computer control itself has bugs.

    In this forum someone suggested he doesn't know what he's doing because he uses weasel words that indicate it looks okay to him, etcetera. I value your opinion more than that of some of the toyota salespeople shown on TV telling people it's only on older models as they tried to sell a car to a faux customer, for example.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    the author of the videos suggests the computer control itself has bugs.

    I am leaning that direction as well. I have tried to find the Video posted at the beginning of this latest round of Toyota recalls. It was the guy being interviewed that took his WOT Toyota to the dealer while it was wide open. Was their any mention of the actual peddle being stuck down? If not, that eliminates the throttle control in this latest video. I don't see how it could be the culprit unless the return spring is defective. Or moisture in the connector causes shorts, that send mixed signals to the control computer. He did mention that in his tear down of the throttle control unit.

    Toyota has not helped by claiming they got the fix when they don't have a fix. I think in their panic, we get mixed reports from different departments at Toyota.

    Also how did the Tacoma escape this recall? I thought they were all made in the USA.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,120
    ...with my wife today. I wonder if Toyota will be there and, if there, will anything be different or they'll just carry on like they did every other year? I also wonder what the GM and Chrysler displays will be like due to their recent troubles? Could you imagine how empty the show would be without GM, Chrysler, and Toyota? Heck, they could hold the entire show on one floor of the Pennsylvania Convention Center.
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