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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    NHTSA allowed this approach by Toyota to proceed ahead with their oil line problem. Some problems are present/exist with this type of solution to address a problem.

    Toyota press announcement
    http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/limited-service-campaign-for-vvt-154549.aspx

    Some information about Service Campaigns/Bulletins

    NHTSA accepted Service Campaigns as Safety Recalls even though Service Campaigns are not subject to the provisions of the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act or the regulations enacted there under. In many cases, Defect Investigations are opened based on an existing Service Campaign or a Technical Service Bulletin. Sometimes, they are closed based on a Service Campaign or a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) issued during the investigation. Unlike Safety Recalls or Safety Improvement Campaign, NHTSA does not uniformly provide copies of such documents on its Website.

    NOTE - Unless the consumer gets access to the Service Campaign or TSB, the consumer will often not get the repair set forward in the Service Campaign or TSB.

    NHTSA has no policy in place to ensure that TSBs or Service Campaigns that are used to justify opening or closing an investigation are placed on the agency's website.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Just was saying I could not understand why Toyota engineers and NHTSA investigators balked at having Rep Issa's representative present when examining the Prius. Issa is on national government committee doing the investigation, and seems should have been allowed and welcomed.
  • oparroparr Posts: 61
    Innocent until proven guilty argument, does that apply to his car as well?

    Sikes never fooled me one bit. My "lie detector" was all over the place during his interview.
  • oparroparr Posts: 61
    Since it has only been a couple of months since the dealers began getting parts, and doing this pedal "fix", this is most difficult question to even speculate about,at best.

    2009 Camry here....The pedal fix recall is the least of my concerns. I wouldn't be interested in the floor mat recall either were it not for the brake override firmware upgrade that comes with it. My appointment is 3/20 for 10,000 mile service and both recalls.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,018
    So Sikes has a dicey history. Is he smart enough to circumvent the brake override system built into the Prius? If he is maybe Toyota should hire him to figure out where all the electronic gremlins are in the Toyota DBW systems that keep failing.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,018
    More from AP on Sike's runaway Prius:

    Doubters have asked why Sikes didn't put the car in neutral as a California Highway Patrol dispatcher and an officer repeatedly urged him to do. Sikes said he considered going into neutral but worried he might go into reverse or flip.

    "I had never played with this kind of transmission, especially when you're driving, and I was actually afraid to do that," he said Tuesday. "I was afraid to do anything out of the normal."

    Toyota has said all Priuses are equipped with a computer system that cuts power to the wheels if the brake and gas pedals are depressed at the same time, as Sikes was doing.

    "It's tough for us to say if we're skeptical. I'm mystified in how it could happen with the brake override system," Don Esmond, senior vice president of automotive operations for Toyota Motor Sales, said Thursday.

    Raj Rajkumar, an electrical and computer-engineering professor at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh who studies auto electronics, said the Prius could still have acceleration malfunctions even with the fail-safe system.

    Toyota says the fail-safe and the engine are controlled by a central computer that contains two independent microprocessors that communicate and must agree with each other. If there's a disagreement, power would be cut to the wheels.

    But Rajkumar said the two engine control unit microprocessors could still receive common erroneous signals from sensors or experience software errors that could cause the throttle and the fail-safe mechanism to malfunction.


    Runaway Prius

    Even Toyota people are baffled by their Prius Runaway.
  • beachfish2beachfish2 Posts: 177
    Some of the sites that broke Sike's story are saying...

    "attorney for James Sikes says his client has no intention of suing Toyota"

    Looks like somebody has some sense. I guess they figured out it would a hard scam to run with his background exposed. I wonder if the insurance companies that were involved will revisit his prior claims. That was a bunch of money he got from them.

    John
  • oparroparr Posts: 61
    edited March 2010
    Is he smart enough to circumvent the brake override system built into the Prius?

    The only certainty here is uncertainty. Maybe Sikes discovered that brake override was not working on his particular car. I have seen several reports from 2008 Prius drivers that state they are not able to engage neutral or stop the car using the on-button while driving. However, the opposite has been clearly demonstrated on You Tube and other places. Perhaps they were not created equally after all.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,018
    From the same AP news article:

    "It would be irresponsible to assert it's a hoax without having facts."

    Todd Neibert, the officer who gave instructions to Sikes over a loudspeaker, said he smelled burning brakes when he caught up with the Prius. He examined the car when it came to a stop.

    "The brakes were definitely down to hardly any material," he told reporters. "There was a bunch of brake material on the ground and inside the wheels."

    Sikes said afterward that he was "embarrassed" by the incident, suggesting that he wished he would have handled it differently. "I'm just embarrassed about that," he said. "You have to be there. That's all I can say."

    Kurt Bardella, a spokesman for Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., said Friday that investigators are best positioned to determine if there was a hoax, but no evidence has emerged.

    A representative of Issa's office was at a California Toyota dealership when investigators from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Toyota examined Sikes' blue Prius on Wednesday and Thursday.

    "Where are these suggestions coming from?" he said. "It would be irresponsible to assert it's a hoax without having facts."

    Joan Claybrook, a former NHTSA administrator, said Sikes' refusal to shift to neutral, is understandable.

    "It's such a horrifying experience to be completely out of control," she said. "It's the kind of thing you dream about when you're really upset and you wake up in sweats."


    I can tell you where the hoax stories are coming from. Toyota damage control specialists and Toyota worshipers on the web. Toyota has spent the last decade discrediting victims of UA, instead of fixing their problems.
  • oparroparr Posts: 61
    I can tell you where the hoax stories are coming from.

    Actually, most are coming from the same media that benefits from a hot story either way. Two days earlier they had a hot runaway story. Today, they have a hot hoax story.

    Whatever, polls seem to favor it to be hoax. The only certainty is uncertainty. FWIW, I think it was a hoax.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Sikes having an alleged dicey history still has not caused SUA/UA incident to be dismissed. So far all stands as it was this am. Sikes alleged dicey history may have no bearing at all upon the pertinent facts of this Prius SUA/UA incident.

    You are quite correct when you ask if he could disable brake override feature installed on his auto. Brake override is a computer program, and that in and of itself says alot. Any deletion of program would be discovered, as auto secured at CHP site following incident. Auto not given back to Sikes. CHP officer assisting Sikes during incident smelled burning of brakes, and verbal/written news reports indicate this same CHP officer saw brake material on wheels and ground. No CHP officer would risk losing his job by lying.

    Gagrice thanks for bringing this fact forward. And then - why didn't brake override work??? Brakes should have stopped Prius quite easily.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    I was just back reviewing posts and had just responded to your earlier post. Refer to my new recent post. Once again thanks for reminding me of brake override system on Prius. I had missed this important factor when saying incident still remains as reported.
  • oparroparr Posts: 61
    Brakes should have stopped Prius quite easily.

    Correct! See videos here;

    http://www.fox40.com/news/headlines/ktxl-news-jamessikesinvestigated0311,0,46776- 51.story

    I suspect one could induce brake wear and smell, without stopping, by adjusting brake pedal pressure accordingly. In other words, ease off the brakes when the car showed signs of stopping. Not too difficult for a con artist. He didn't even have to practice.
  • beachfish2beachfish2 Posts: 177
    "So far all stands as it was this am."

    Maybe where you live, but everyone doesn't think the way you do.

    John
  • Excellent job finding that article! This is the first glimmer of acknowledgment I have seen from Toyota that this event should not have been possible (even if attempted on purpose) if the Prius was working as designed. They really have to be backed into a corner to admit anything don't they?
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Fox news report deals mainly with Sikes alleged dicey history. Fox News report appears to only be making point Sikes has questionable history.. They did not investigte further or speak with ISSA, NHTSA, or CHP about the facts of the case. Fox did speak with Toyota spokeman though and it seems Sikes wants to turn in his leased Prius for a new car to lease. Toyota states they can not imagine how auto could not stop when auto has brake override. Sikes is not suing, does not want money from Toyota per his attorney. Investigation is good, but was disappointed they did not go further. They only mention in one or two sentences other people have had UA complaints at the end of the story. No mention of incident facts this case.

    AP news report mentioned by gagrice actually went lots further - Issa who is actually on government committee investigating Toyota states incident will be reviewed fairly. So far case does not appear to be hoax and no claims of such should be made without knowing all the facts. Joan Claybrook who was former head of NHTSA states she can understand Sikes reaction in an emergency. CHP stated they asked Sikes to do news interviews. CHP has found no evidence of a hoax. The Mark Saylor family attorney is now protecting Sikes through the investigation process. Considering the publicity and legal issues this is being very prudent. Anyone, even if they had totally spotless history should have an attorney. Attorney states Sikes is not suing Toyota. Raj Rajkumar, an electrical and computer-engineering professor at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh who studies auto electronics, said the Prius could still have acceleration malfunctions even with the fail-safe system. Toyota says the fail-safe and the engine are controlled by a central computer that contains two independent microprocessors that communicate and must agree with each other. If there's a disagreement, power would be cut to the wheels. But Rajkumar said the two engine control unit microprocessors could still receive common erroneous signals from sensors or experience software errors that could cause the throttle and the fail-safe mechanism to malfunction.

    Here is AP News reporter story link.
    http://www.wsbtv.com/news/22826761/detail.html
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    edited March 2010
    ENOUGH ALREADY...!!

    Toyota/etc is stretching the truth just a little bit when they say the Prius has a brake override system. In reality I doubt that Toyota's USA management even knows the truth of the matter.

    Toyota's HSD system is designed so that when the brake is applied, brake light switch closes, the ICE and the 2 MGs go into regenerative braking mode. It is THAT inherent design aspect that Toyota is using in order to say the Prius already has a BTO, Brake/Throttle Override system.
  • vmrgvmrg Posts: 9
    That is quite easy, go as fast as you can, leave the gas and slightly touch brakes, officer thinks you are braking hard with "little" effect.

    Now, you explain this to me. His brakes are either working or not. And his brakes WERE working. Never any question about that. He eventually used his brakes to slow down (yeah, yeah, with a little help from the parking brake, if anyone buys that). There is no way brakes won't stop a Prius. I can understand a more powerful car but no way with Prius. And they did, when CHP came over, so why not earlier? Explain that if you can.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    I indicated the law enforcement agency in California, CHP gave/released to news report of runaway Prius. And they gave the news reports. CHP reports so far legally stands at this time. CHP reported they saw no evidence of incident being a hoax. This is the fact of where case is at presently.
  • oparroparr Posts: 61
    Fox news report deals mainly with Sikes alleged dicey history.

    1. Brake smell and residue and the car never stopped
    2. Refusal to press the on/off button
    3. Refusal to shift to neutral
    4. Could contort himself sufficiently enough to attempt to "right" the stuck pedal

    The list goes on. Actually, for me it was his interview, his body language and poor theatrics were a dead give away.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Could you please explain your professional/hobby expertise.

    And yes, brakes with brake override should work. But something appears to have happened per reports. CHP reports they have seen no evidence of a hoax. CHP is the law enforcement agency and courts realize legal standing/importance of CHP reports.

    Have you read all of the news reports of this particular incident of the actual road terrain to get vehicle stopped? Did you see CHP officers report the three listed things why he felt they were able to get vehicle stopped? Did you know auto at the end was going up a hill???? Vehicle then slowed down climbing this hill. Did you read reports brakes didn't actually work well, vehicle after few/couple attempts was shut off at about 55mph?? Vehicle rolled to stop, with help of what brakes were left??? Did you know cell phone was hand held, so difficult to drive and talk/listen cell phone?? Did you read or see officer reporting he saw bunch of brake material on tires and ground??? Did you read CHP officer report about the brakes??

    Gagrice lives there, he is great help to understand that road - I-8.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    So Prius really doesn't have true brake override system??? Interesting. I was going by Toyota reports. Missed your expertise here today.

    .
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "..if anyone buys that..."

    Wouldn't the already "weak" rear braking have been compromised by ABS??

    Even if the rear brakes were strong enough to bring the wheels close to stopping ABS would prevent the rear wheels from slowing much more than the front wheels.

    The e-brake is not affected by ABS.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    There was a Colorado incident of a runaway Prius. James family. They were actually strong supporters/advocates for Toyota prior to incident. Husband had been awarded a $10,000 scholarship award. Then Toyota treatment following incident really upset them. They are not pursuing any legal action.
  • krzysskrzyss Posts: 843
    wouldn't it cause the system into regenerative braking - you know turning motor into generator and not use brake pads at all.
    Regardles of the history of the driver Prius should not behave as witnessed, unless its computer was tampered with.

    Krzys
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,018
    You have to remember that to some of our posters, Toyota is not just a car company. They are gods to be revered. If you have followed Edmund's as I have since 1998 you know that people will attack anyone that says negative things about the car they love. With Toyota and especially Prius worshippers it is far more. If you say anything negative about a Prius or hybrid you are a pariah. Every person that has posted something bad happening with their Prius here on Edmund's have been called everything including a liar. So when we have a Prius going berzerk with a cop as witness, they go into overload. Has to be a hoax. Toyota makes no mistakes. Well I think they are in deep doo doo about now. This incident will stick.

    Claybrook, the former federal administrator, noted that drivers often come under heavy scrutiny for reporting unintended acceleration.

    "Attacking the driver has long been the answer that not just Toyota, but the entire industry, has had," she said. "Blaming the driver is old hat."


    I hope we have some sharp people looking at this Prius and get to the bottom of the problem. It will look real bad if the NHTSA finds the flaw and not Toyota.
  • vmrgvmrg Posts: 9
    You have to remember that to some of our posters, Toyota is not just a car company. They are gods to be revered.

    I will just make a few points, no need for me to extend this any further. The way I see it, that quote explains your state of mind. Toyota can do no good for you.

    At the end, I know who I am. I have no allegiance to Toyota, heck never even owned a Toyota. I didn't even say Toyota had no fault in all this. I saw those stats, although all automakers had UA, Toyota had them at a higher rate the last few years.

    However, when people fail to acknowledge at least some of these cases should be driver errors they lose their credibility with me.

    Ditto if you can't say it is likely an 80 year old confused brake pedal with gas pedal when he drives into a laundromat.

    Or if you can't see now that Toyota's troubles had so much air time, some Toyota drivers might blame UA in case of an accident.

    Or this very last case reeks of suspicion to say the least.

    Anyway, I should have learned long ago that nobody change their opinions in these type of discussions. I certainly won't change my opinion that all things considered Toyota is one of the safer car makes to drive so have a nice day bashing Toyota.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    I have a Toyota RAV4 so have a good vested interest to discover the truth. Just don't want to see myself having such a Toyota preferred and loyal view that I can't objectively view the problems.

    The California legal authority agency report still stands for now. Now the investigation reports will be released eventually. I do want to know who did Toyota send as their engineeers?? Were these their own inhouse engineers, or Exponent engineers?? Or were they just Toyota techs?? Who did NHTSA send to investigate?

    If Toyota sent their hired gun Exponent engineers and one of their own inhouse down, then I do see a major problem. Think you have seen the multiple links I provided of documented detrimental information about that firm.

    I understand what Claybrook is saying. I have read muliple case reports revealing this same response by manufacturers/Toyota. Some have even had witnesses saying car took off. Yet those owners were told it was their fault. Seems to be associated with that states particular laws. If liability laws are weak manufacturers gamble and are quite agressive.

    I too hope the huge media publicity, CHP, public watching closely - the real facts of the case bring a fair decision. NHTSA really doesn't have top notch auto engineers though.
  • Some of us got your point days ago. However since the net effect is the same regarding setting the engine to idle when the brake is applied, it is just easier to call it brake override rather than repeat a whole paragraph so as to remain technically proper. That is probably why Toyota is doing it too.

    Is there another 2-3 word name for what it really is that conveys the idea that the brake is supposed to override the throttle? Or can we just call it brake override?
  • For those that would like a brief diversion.

    I-70 Runaway Prius Ramp
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