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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall



  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    It was not real easy finding Dr. Gilbert's bio. There are two Dr. David Gilberts at SIU. I thought when I found the first one Dr. David G. Gilbert in the Psychology dept. something was amiss. The one we are concerned with is Dr. David W Gilbert. I would say he is more qualified to speak on the subject of DBW than anyone in our government or that Toyota has offered testimony from.
  • jdm9jdm9 Posts: 38
    Thanks for the link Sharon , I think the evidence is mounting that during the most serious UA events, in most vehicles the brakes didnt perform well and it appears that there is a fair amount of documentaion that suggests shifting to nuetral also did not work well if at all in the most serious injury events. No one though that I can find goes into any detail at all about the results of trying to turn off the key while experiencing first hand a UA event. Does anyone out there have that personal (not conjecture, as weve gone through that already) first hand experience?
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    edited February 2010
    "...what kind of work..."

    Mostly retired but still responsible for the "trim tab factor" at the company the DW and I founded back in '72. That adds up to almost 40 years in the real time, process control, computer applications market.

    IMMHO Gilbert over-stepped by shorting the gas pedal sensors to a ~5 volt source in order to show an instance of UA, just to get attention to his more valid findings. The REAL point he should have been making was that the Denso's overall system health monitoring firmware sub-routines did not discover that the two gas pedal sensors output signal was the same. The monitoring software should have almost INSTANTLY detected the short and just as instantly put the entire system into "limp home" mode.

    The voltage specification, 0.02 volts, came from two factory shop/repair manuals, an early RX330 and a 2010 RX350. Even with the two signals shorted together it would not be unusual for the short to have just enough resistance to allow for more than a 0.02 volt difference. And here, with Gilbert, we have an INTENTIONAL direct short that apparently has enough resistance to allow the two signals to still be that much different.

    Or the firmware system health monitoring system was completely "out to lunch".

    In my opinion once DBW was adopted the very next step should have been to disable the throttle opening servomotor the INSTANT and substantive level of brake pressure was sensed/detected. But then we should keep in mind that Toyota/etc was forced to adopt DBW under duress/distress.

    They needed to find a way, QUICKLY find a way, to cover-up the design flaw that was inadvertently incorporated in the RX300's U140E/F transaxle now that it was to be adopted fleetwide. The new design was much more fuel efficient vs the A140 design.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Steve thanks for the information - so Dave Gilbert is Dr. Dave Gilbert. I have been out trying to find more information about Dr. Gilbert this morning.

    Do you think Southern Illinois University Auto Technology Department being ranked #1 in nation will have meaning??? It appears auto electronics is one of Dave Gilberts specialties. What influence will his report have??? He did state what he did most definitely falls under research guidelines for studies.

    In testimony Dave Gilbert did state he had started project all on his owned as he had just bought a Toyota truck. News media hype seemed to entice his interest in pursuing it seems. Then once he discovered something, he said he did make calls to Toyota, NHTSA, and then Sean Kane at Safety, Research & Strategies. Kane was back to him immediately. The other two were not. And thus Kane paid him $1800 plus $150 per hour, plus supplied $4000 in needed equipment to proceed ahead. This is just peanuts! Compare to what Toyota pays Exponent - over $1,000,000+++. Since Gilbert really has no real huge financial gains or biases I can find - just don't put him in same category as Exponent. As you have probably already seen I do not like Exponent because of their work& what they with PGE chromium pollution here. Saying chromium doesn't cause cancer?? Facts do speak volumns.

    I saw Omar Trinidad had worked with Gilbert on this study conducted at University. See Omar's education background not yet posted.

    So what is your prediction about what will come of Gilbert's finding that were presented as only a good starting point for Toyota????
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "...brakes didn't perform well.."

    Have you seen the close up pictures of the CHP officers brake rotor and pads..??

    The problem isn't really with the brakes, the simple fact is that an engine operating WOT at a decent highway speed can too easily overcome the brakes. More especially so, it seems to me, if the engine is driving the front, PRIMARY braking, wheels. And I am still of the suspecion that with so much torque applied to the gear teeth of the transaxle's drum clutches the clutch disks do not easily separate even when the hydraulic pressure is removed.
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 39,983
    edited February 2010
    Even though I think it's too late for Toyota to take the same approach (obviously), they'd do well to heed those lessons.

    It may not be too long before new cars come equipped with a wireless connection. Tuesday night software updates.

    For severe problems discovered, the dealers could send out a signal that kills all stopped cars until the new code can be installed and the car rebooted.

    Re Dr. Gilbert, the industry must be a bit concerned. They are trying to taint him for accepting the $1800 "witness" fee he was paid by Kane and the lawyers.

    Need help navigating? - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "...calls to Toyota(/etc), NHTSA, and then Sean Kane..."

    And no doubt Toyota/etc, in turn, sent the "call" into the "black hole" called Denso.

    NHTSA sent the "call" to Toyota/etc.........DITTO...!!

    While Dr. Gilbert's findings are important, they are FAR from "on-point" insofar as UA is concerned. Other than indicating the horrible sloppiness of Denso's firmware code specification and composition, that is.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,099
    edited February 2010
    Dr. Gilbert, the industry must be a bit concerned. They are trying to taint him for accepting the $1800 "witness" fee he was paid by Kane and the lawyers.

    Steve...I agree. That's really "mouse nuts". And, by them trying to taint Dr Gilbert's testimony tells me they don't want to go down that rabbit hole. That also tells me Toyota is afraid of what they might find, or worse, already know but don't want anyone else to know.

    What they should be doing is hiring him to help them find out the real culprit (If they don't already know) and help them to respond with a plan of action to alleviate it.

    I still believe Toyota already knows the answer, however. They just don't like it.

    You do the wireless download "thing" in cars, you'll get the privacy advocates stating that they don't want that because it gives the manufacturer a way to reach them that they just don't want.

    Then, what happens if the connection is somehow interfered with and can't finish. Is the car unusable at that point? I know I can brick my iphone by doing that (don't ask me how I know).
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Wow, you do have extensive experience!! Who is DW???

    Now since we know University of Southern Illinois Auto Technology Department is ranked #1 in nation and one of Dave Gilbert's specialties appear to be auto electronics - wouldn't he be aware??? Dave Gilbert does have a masters degree. Steve, our nice host sent me info. Gilbert had stated what he did still fell within correct parameters of conducting test studies??

    Do you have a link where Gilbert says he did use 0.02 voltage?? From what you said does appear he actually did. Right from the manuel.

    I know during testimony and what he reported to ABC News he felt this, if it did exist, was just a starting point for Toyota.. I forget what/ where he felt he saw some problems. But vaguely recall something about failsafe system too. Know he did say Toyota system was the easiest system to get into. Seems to be same possibility you indicated.

    Wow - sounds like his study should have been conducted to point more at the failsafe systems issues with recognizing all glitches small-large. I have not seen his actual written study finding. I am use to analyzing medical research studies, so would have been interesting to analyze.

    Seems like you and my son totally agree with a need for brake override type system w DBW. When I first spoke with him - first thing he asked. Wanted me to check. I had no idea, and off I went. No brake override. My son had said Toyota is almost 10 years behind the time with brake override. He does development/engineering for Porsche/Audi/BMW/Bentley/VW/etc. And now know most of these do have.

    Now my impressions - Toyota is probably/may be aware of these issues. Fact - They announced brake override Nov 25, 2009. This was before second recall. So then any glitches in electronics causing UA/SUA brakes would win out.

    Is this correct assumption?? I had understood it was. Just checking for sure.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,099
    And hopefully the same set of circumstances would never happen again for the new owners. The down side to this, I wonder if the new owners even know the history behind this vehicle. And, if they found out, would they still want the car?
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Like I already stated - $1800 plus $150/hr, plus $4000(school probably gets now) in equipment is nothing, nothing, nothing!!! Don't forget all approved by University too. There is no personal financial gain for Dave Gilbert!!! Ridiculous!!!! Dave Gilbert started this project out on his own. Dave Gilbert had just bought Toyota truck. Said recall and issues enticed him. One of his expertises is auto electronics. Toyota and NHTSA had their chance to work with him but they didn't call back. Sean Kane got back immediately. Kane agreed to help pay, to finish work as that was what was needed. This all was in testimoney after sworn in an dunder oath. University of Southern Illinois Auto Technology Department is #1 in nation. Gilbert stated under testimony he is not against Toyota at all. Actually Toyota usually supplies school with vehicles.

    What does Exponent gain by working for Toyota - $1,000,000+++++
    What does Toyota gain by using Exponent??? H-mmm (1)no electronics problem (2)defense reports for all their law suits, witnesses from Exponent (3)hundreds of million dollars savings in defeating their law suits (4)etc..

    So I ask who is biased???????????? Who gains most!!!!

    That congressman who attacked Kane for paying Gilbert - attempting to discredit Gilbert's findings as biased - is politics talking loud and clear it appears!! Sounds more like he got some money for his own personal politics. Don't forget Toyota had extra lobbyist in
    Washington this week. Toyota pays out way over $1,000.000 lobbying in Washington for their interests.

    No one has to be rocket scientist to realize what is happening! Facts reveal Gilbert is the least biased.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Yes, I too am very disappointed. Each step of way, things nver seemed correct, started forming some negative opinions, but still wanted and hoped they were addressing the issues.

    Toyota hiring Exponent was the final straw. I already knew who Exponent was and what they can do.

    Inanba and that memo response - I don't remember it - was telling. Sorry - I strongly feel response was not true. And assume legal issue.

    Here they are
    (1)??? Think may be driver
    (2)Miscare of car
    (3)Structure of vehicle
    (4)Structural parts

    I am going to post these causes as separate posting also. Think everyone may respond more.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660

    (any of you remember #1 for sure?? - I misssed per my notes)
    (1)??? Think may be driver
    (2)Care of car
    (3)Structure of vehicle
    (4)Structural parts
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 39,983
    edited February 2010
    You do the wireless download "thing" in cars, you'll get the privacy advocates

    Well, you can turn that off in Windows so the updates aren't automatic. But yeah, the NSA would probably enjoy having a backdoor into it.

    And some members here think that Toyota and others are already flashing the cars with new code without telling the owners. But if that were true, some tech somewhere would be spilling the beans.

    Need help navigating? - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 39,983
    edited February 2010
    Sharonkl, I'm afraid I was spreading incorrect information the other day based on a 2002 link I found.

    Dr. Gilbert got his PhD in 2006.

    Need help navigating? - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Steve, so you found Toyota gives to Gilbert's program too. I wonder why Toyota never called him back until several days later. I sure don't see Gilbert being out to get Toyota. Gilbert actually had more to lose by doing study, and detrimental risks for presenting it were high. University may lose out on Toyota money, cars in future.

    Seems like I have more pieces of the puzzle going in place.

    Many thanks. Helped alot!!!
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Steve - thanks. Got it already. You are sharing lots of info for me and others too I am sure! Sincerely appreciate.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Yes, complaints on NHTSA site are someowhat vague. Safety sites are the ones who complain those people are not called and list of detailed questions asked. I also saw in a final report NHTSA they did say they called people. But no included list of any questions asked so I could evaluate validity of study. How can there be any validity assumed when professionally no onbe can evaluate questions posed to these people. No responses included in report as attachments??? I just seemed to continue finding more faults as I read on. And I am not expet in autos!! From medical research analysis type approach I can definitely say it is faulty.

    Too bad they never asked such a question.
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