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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • PMOPMO Posts: 278
    Not on Toyota I read, so the RPM would shake you too at that time.
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Posts: 44
    Thanks, xlu. I agree with almost all of your post. The part I don't agree with now is the San Clemente case. "The San Clemente case clearly indicated the car was to blame. The car made a 90 degree turn into a parking lot behind Ralphs then accelerated in high rate and struck the parked truck without leaving any brake marks on the ground. The fact that the care successfully made the slow and sharp 90 degree turn into the parking lot proves the driver was alert and not under any influence. Then there's no reason for him to fly on without braking. This means that both the car's accelerator and brake failed."
    I'm not saying you are wrong, but my theory right now is these kind of low speed incidents in town in close quarters may involve hitting the accelerator instead of the brake, since it was a situation that required braking and there was not enough time to recover. This happened to me with my Avalon a couple of months ago. Luckily, I didn't hit anything, just ran over a bush.
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Posts: 44
    Yes, PMO, you can't trust dealers on used cars. I learned long ago to try to buy my used cars from the original owner. Check it out myself, and since I'm not that experienced, take it to a body shop. They will tell you for free if it's ever been wrecked. I usually slip the guy 10 bucks for his time. They are amazing, can spot body repairs in a few seconds. Then I take it to a mechanic and have engine and running gear checked, check how old the fluids are, etc. This can cost up to $100, but worth it if I want the car. Will only buy a cream puff. I try to buy a used car for half price or less, with two-thirds of the life still left in it. Older Ford Tauruses are great bargains, IMHO, because they depreciate so fast. I try to avoid rentals. My last one, a 2003, was a rental, but it's fine except for windows that "groan" when closing. Probably would have been fixed by a private owner, but the rental company probably didn't even know about it. I ignore it because I saved about 4k on it, paid cash, no payments. What's not to like?
    By paying cash, I wind up spending a lot less, buying what I need, not what I want.
    My Avalon was my first splurge. Bought it from the original owner. Barely a scratch on it, has a platinum warranty that lasts until 2012 or 100 k miles. Then Toyo hit their tipping point and have dug a deep hole for themselves to get out of. Hope they make it, but not sticking up for them, just trying to study this problem and keep my perspective. Can't forget their great reliability record.
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Posts: 44
    Yes, Explorerx4, you are right. We can go overboard. Lots of products are so good now that an average product is still very good. Back in the sixties there was a great deal of difference. I only use it as a starting point, not as a bible, but wanted to point out Toyo's great long-term reliability record.
    Regards,
    Dennis
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    This San Diego runaway Prius investigation this week may be getting quite interesting reviewing the involved players. And the many players positions may be/could be all highly questionsable???? Sikes, Exponent, Issa, Toyota, NHTSA. At the end I list only one news report from today, as it was more detailed. Do google and you can find more today. Each will vary slightly on what they have reported. But investigation is still not completed - just this preliminary finding. Does appear all may not be as it seems. If you don't have all the dots to connect together with the final decision you may never never know the truth.
    .
    (1)Seems we have the driver of the Runaway Prius may have alleged dicey background. .James Sikes.
    Here are news report of incident.
    http://www.cbs8.com/Global/story.asp?S=12110134

    http://www.10news.com/news/22777208/detail.html

    This report mentions Sikes alleged dicey background mostly
    http://www.fox40.com/news/headlines/ktxl-news-jamessikesinvestigated0311,0,46776- 51.story

    (2)Toyota's hired gun firm - Exponent with their engineers is quite good but has their own history of ethical problems. Exponent is an excellent defensive litigation firm corporations use where firm is hired by corporation's lawyers so legal protection exists regarding their reports/studies. Firms hire when they are in big trouble. Exponent's work/studies/reports well known to only/almost always support their clients. UCSF medical center cardiologist that does research on tobacco use knows them well. Exponent has done reports/studies tobacco does not cause lung cancer - hired by tobacco firms to defend their business. Also PGE with their cancer causing chromium pollution problem Hinckley, California hired Exponent along with their former Vice President Dennis Paustenbach(Now of Chem Risk - San Francisco) -proven fraud scientific research study chromium does not cause cancer. Chromium does cause high incidents of cancer.illnesses. California famous blue ribbon panel findings thrown out here in California due to the fraud found. Remember movie Erin Brockovich. Two law suits won against PGE due chromium pollution. Huge, huge coverup exposed. Exponent hired by auto manufcturers and another study asbestos does not cause lung cancer/mesothelioma. Etc. Have lots more bookmarked other cases. As a medical professional, attending meetings, discussing and analyzing medical research studies, was already aware of Exponent long before SUA/UA situation started this past year. We discussed who they were at length.
    Here are some links to help. .
    http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/files/IJOEH_1202_Egilman.pdf

    http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/students/envs_5720/michaels_2008_CH5.pdf

    http://www.defendingscience.org/public_health_regulations/upload/NRDC_SAB_Asbest- os-2.pdf

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2006-02-06-pge-settlement-brocko- vich_x.htm

    http://www.ewg.org/featured/219

    (3)Representative Issa (here in California in southern California area)who is on congressional committee that is investigating Toyota.. Issa is the richest congressman. His company here southern California developed antitheft and sold anti theft to Toyota - sold company but still serves on board. Wrote letter defending Toyota in rebuttal letter to Congressional Representative Towns, chairman of Committee sent to Toyota claiming Toyota with held information from the courts. This was regarding the former Toyota's attorney documents supeonaed by committee. Issa demanded to be present during Toyota engineers inspections, NHTSA engineers inspections of runaway Toyota Prius. Made it public news headlines to make sure news was published & out. So then question seems to be - who is Issa protecting the public or Toyota??

    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-biller28-2010feb28,0,5134884.story

    http://www.latimes.com/media/acrobat/2010-02/52461172.pdf

    Note Issa's connections to Toyota. His company sold the alrm to Toyota
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/23/business/23donate.html

    Battle - Issa writes letter rebutting Chairman Towns letter - Issa's letter to Towns within article. Link provided.
    http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/bitter-battle-breaks-congressmen-secret-toyota-doc- s/story?id=9993046

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/mar/10/issa-butts-heads-with-nhtsa-over-- prius-probe/

    (3)Then you have Toyota that is in trouble - not even linking all the numerous links.

    (4)NHTSA - govenment safety agency that is also being investigated by oversight committee. Not listing links involving their problems

    Then today out comes articles of preliminary findings from investigation of Prius. Seem to claim Sikes story doesn't make sense. But brakes front were down to nothing.

    "The memo did say that investigators found the front brake pads were spent.
    "Visually checking the brake pads and rotor it was clearly visible that there was nothing left," it said.

    "Regarding the brake wear, Gomez cited a CHP officer's comment that brakes smelled as he chased Sikes on the freeway."

    "The brake wear was not consistent with the brakes being applied at full force for a long period, the Wall Street Journal reported Saturday, citing three people familiar with the probe, whom it did not name. The newspaper said the brakes may have been applied intermittently."

    Here is just one link of story out today. More news reports all over with slight variation..Just google for more.
    http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wirestory?id=10095393&page=2

    Good luck sorting through all these links.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0db60b/250

    Sharon,

    Have you read the post 251 in the above link..?

    It explains EVERYTHING in the Sikes UA incident.
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Posts: 44
    Andres3, thanks for the great quote:
    "I could of bought a Rolls Royce cheaper than keeping a Neon that long."
    I had a roommate for awhile in college back in the sixties who came from a very rich family. He said his grandma told him the reason she had a Rolls Royce was because she couldn't afford to buy a new Ford or Chevvy every two years! Loved that story! Sorry about your Neon, though.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,176
    Here is the bottom line, if the Prius is accelerating (gaining speed) and the brake lights are on and visibly smoking. The Prius is NOT working as designed. End of story. Unless Sikes is some kind of electronics genius and was able to override the systems to create a fraud, it is an electronic problem in the Prius.

    The other cases where people speed up in a parking lot and ram something. Well I would be skeptical. It just seems strange that Toyota has more of those type UA than ALL other makes combined. I don't buy the theory that Toyota buyers are stupid and or incompetent.

    At least not you and me. :)
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    You are welcome. As you willl note I just sent a post today with more information regarding all the players involved in the Prius investigation. Maybe the public should have insisted on having their owned totally unbiased auto engineer present during the investigation??
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Posts: 44
    That's right, gagrice, the rest of the Toyo owners may be stupid and incompetent, but surely not you and me!!!
    LOL!!
    Dennis :)
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    I am not an expert on auto mechanics, but runaway Prius this past week has many questions about players involved and questions about their positions. My post today reveals the questions about the players.

    When it was just the reports of finding and what CHP reported - brakes smelled, officer states he saw brake material on wheels and ground after the incident - should have indicated brakes were applied during the UA/UA incident. CHP was witness. Sikes may have dicey history, but facts of case initially have nothing to do with his dicey background. CHP did not know. But they always look for problems in the story too. CHP found none initially to question story.

    What can be sad is Sikes may have had real SUA/UA happen. The brakes It appeared by all reports given was real SUA/UA incident. But Sikes does not have money to fight Exponent defense engineers findings(know they were there), Toyota, Issa positions. Sikes alleged shady history may have made it easier to question/cause doubts/refute his claims. Just not sure what CHP new claims about incident are now/at present???
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    You always have all the expert knowledge we need. This helps to add to all the questionable positions of the players involved in the runaway Prius investigation that I posted here today.

    Questions -
    (1)Effect on braking since front brake pads gone???
    (2)Report by Gagrice back were down to 3mm & forget other number ???
    (3)CHP officer states smelled brakes, brake material visible on wheels and ground afer the incident??? Wouldn't this inidcate brakes applied??


    Since Prius is such an electronically computerized braking system if "bug" in system - brakes are gone.

    Thanks so much for info. Helps me alot. Look forard to hearing from you regrding my questions.



    How can this preliminary report come out saying
  • newdavidqnewdavidq Posts: 146
    Do I understand one of the reports to say that the brakes on Sikes car were "gone"?

    Does that mean that it is possible to wear off all of the brake pad material in the time this event lasted unless the pads were almost completely gone to start with?

    How many applications of how many pounds pressure does it take to remove x number 32nds on Prius brake pads?

    Hope this issue gets resolved soon so we can move on to other important issues. I'm going to pop over the ethanol forum and see whats happening.

    Regards, DQ
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "...Wouldn't this indicate brakes were applied..."

    Yes, but the question remains "how hard".

    Suppose, as someone mentioned, regenerative braking can only accomplish up to 80% of the braking. So, due to the runaway condition the HSD control ECU didn't actually provide the 80% and the skid control made up the remaining 20%. Clearly not enough to stop the Prius but after 20-30 minutes of constant braking certainly enough to provide a brake burning odor and brake pad debris.
  • beachfish2beachfish2 Posts: 177
    www.foxnews.com/leisure/2010/03/13/pattern-wear-runaway-prius-brakes-raises-ques- tions/?test=latestnews

    "FOXNews.com

    Investigation of runaway Prius vehicle found a particular pattern of wear on the car's brakes that raises questions about the driver's version of the event. Investigators were also unable to make the Prius speed out of control as California man detailed."

    "But the investigation of the vehicle, carried out jointly by safety officials from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Toyota engineers, didn't find signs the brakes had been applied at full force at high speeds over a sustained period of time, the three people familiar with the investigation said.
    The brakes were discolored and showed wear, but the pattern of friction suggested the driver had intermittently applied moderate pressure on the brakes, these people said, adding the investigation didn't find indicators of the heavy pressure described by Sikes."
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    As my link indicated, heavy or even EXTREME pressure on the brake pedal must go through the skid control ECU and HSD control ECU "handshake" "gateway" before ANY level of hydraulic brake fluid pressure is applied to the brakes.

    It's pretty clear that the HSD control ECU was in some way, somehow "out to lunch" so if it was properly, improperly, or not at all participating in the required handshake sequence is unknown, unknowable.
  • beachfish2beachfish2 Posts: 177
    "It's pretty clear that the HSD control ECU was in some way, somehow "out to lunch" "

    More than likely it was Mr. Sikes who was out to lunch.

    Meanwhile, Mr. Sikes did not wear out the brakes on the car as the early reports assumed. Early reports, middle reports, later reports, etc. So much that was reported is turning out to be not quite the whole truth.

    Feel free to argue with the experts, I'm just posting what is in the news.

    John
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Yes, that's what reports say. Refer back to my post regarding the players making reports. Issa has his own questionable history- defended Toyota & sold antitheft to Toyota and still serves on board.. Hired Exponent engineeers there for Toyota have huge "dicey" past and that's what they do is twist anything to support their clients. And then must see who NHTSA sent?? Was he actually an auto engineer with strong background or just a tech?? Don't take reports at face value until players involved known and how they may be connected to Toyota or what their expertise is. .

    I connected enough dots this morning from my huge bookmarked list. I was disappointed and shocked at what I found, and then eventually realized what we may be seeing. That is why I said story is interesting and players positions are highly questionable.

    What is sad for Sikes - he could have very well gone through SUA/UA incident, but his shady background could have/have created major issues making much easier to discredit his story. Maybe his story is false/may very well not be. He has attorney representing him now. Sikes has always said he loves Toyota and had no plans to sue. Started saying this befroe he even hired attorney. Sikes has no damage claim to even sue, no money to fight Toyota corporation. If his backgrtound is true, then gentleman is not someone I would respect at all.

    CHP reports and news reports in the beginning when it happened, did not feel story was hoax per reports. Findings at time of incident/post incident, and CHP interviews support this. Have not seen any report from them today.

    Put my links from prior post together. Then consider known questionable facts of players and what facts about incident exist. Manufacturer in charge of own tests. Issa representative not expert per reports.

    I would guess a full out attack to come forward against Sikes. Toyota appears to be in attack mode now.

    Story to be continued it seems.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "..did not wear out the brakes..."

    Maybe because the poorly coded skid control firmware wouldn't allow him to use FULL braking..??
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,176
    My guess is Issa, NHTSA and CHP all had observers while some local Toyota Hybrid tech did the testing. I would be surprised if there was an engineer in the bunch. Just a bunch of lookie loos. Then you notice the report was all anonymous. Very fishy indeed. We have to face reality. Toyota has kept all this stuff pretty much to themselves. So finding an outside trained engineer that knows the inner workings of the Prius is not going to be easy to find. And when you do find him or her would they be willing to be a target for the Toyota smear squad?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,176
    You understand the Prius ultimately better than I do. My understanding is when you lightly touch the brake peddle the regen braking system takes over. That shuts down the forward motion through the HSD system. The hydraulic brakes do not come into play unless you stomp hard and only for emergency stops. I don't see how Toyota can build a case for this being a hoax without admitting their electronics are faulty.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Yes, when the brake light switch is tripped the skid control ECU "looks" at several sensors to determine the level of braking the driver is "requesting". Once it determines the total braking level required at this very instant it sends a message to the HSD control ECU. Basically the skid control ECU is telling the HSD control ECU how much total braking force is required and at the same time "asking" how much of this can it supply using regenerative braking.

    In the normal case the HSD control ECU might come back with the ability of 0 to 100%, but let's use 50%. In which case now the skid control ECU can open the ABS/TC manifolds enough to supply the other 50%.

    And if the HSD control ECU isn't communicating....WHAT...??
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Well I did provide enough links with known facts I had saved since this all began today. Hope it helps everyone.

    As to your reference of an outside independent engineer - not sure they would want the liabilty or the big fight, and the professional damage attacks they could experience.

    I was shocked. Story will continue. All has been quite an education for me.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Yes, they have had a great reliability rating and record. That was why I got my RAV4. It was rated well.

    I started out thinking I needed to investigate, learn, etc when this started. I had vested interest. I had found myself with the time to do this. Just retired. Started this rooting strong for Toyota. Paper trail grew, and then disappoinment.

    Despite all I have found out about everything - I do know and realize Toyota will come back. Markets already indicate they are. Memories are short, and most people not aware of all the detailed facts.
    Etc.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    So from what you said few questions may still remain. Even though CHP saw brake material and smelled brakes. Now throw in Issa and his trail & the questions, Toyota hired Exponent engineers & possibly one of their own inhouse engineers, and who NHTSA sent.

    But brakes could/may not have been able to stop vehicle. Got it. Guess we wait for the next chaper to unfold.

    Many thanks.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    "Brian Pennings, a spokesman for the California Highway Patrol, said his agency's view that there is no evidence of a hoax is unchanged. The CHP does not plan to investigate the incident because there were no injuries or property damage.

    "Unless they can completely disprove Mr. Sikes, we're done," Pennings said. "It doesn't sound like they can do that."
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Sorry there were two posts. My computer froze and then did auto post without me hitting post my message. Sorry. Wierd. Guess a "bug" hit my poor computer too.

    "The memo said both the front and rear brakes were worn and damaged by heat, consistent with Sikes saying that he stood on the brake pedal with both feet and was unable to stop the car. But if the fail-safe system worked properly, the brakes wouldn't have been damaged because power would have been cut to the wheels.

    The Wall Street Journal reported Saturday that the wear was not consistent with the brakes being applied at full force for a long period, citing three people familiar with the probe, whom it did not name. The newspaper said the brakes may have been applied intermittently."

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gc_pIFqke7WxQovY3MnhcyIYiLgwD9- EEO8H01
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    edited March 2010
    The skid control ECU is the SOLE manager of the HYDRAULIC braking. If the HSD control ECU "told" the skid control ECU that it could provide ~70% of the braking force via regenerative braking (but didn't) then the skid control ECU would only allow 30% Hydraulic braking force. And that 30% might well have been heavily biased toward the rear brakes.

    There is STRONG evidence that the HSD control ECU firmware had gone awry so anything is possible.
  • PMOPMO Posts: 278
    You are the perfect used car shopper,I too bought this way when younger but not now. This Enclave cost me $1800.00 it is a 2009 my 2008 traded with 6000 miles. I looked at the extra 8 Hp and the options tow pak.trans.cooler. and leather could not let it go . This is trade up one year too.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    [quote]If all else fails there is direct hydraulic pressure from the brake pedal.[/quote]



    The documentation clearly implies that the skid control ECU will NOT open the ABS/TC manifold ports to allow hydraulic braking to the wheels if the HSD control ECU "says" it will provide 100% of the braking. So it might not matter how hard your depress the brake pedal the resulting hydraulic pressure may not be ported to the wheels or maybe only a portion provided what the HSD control ECU "reports".



    Yes, clearly there should be, SHOULD BE, a "time out" period if the HSD control ECU doesn't report back within a very short time limit, say <10 milliseconds.



    But if you look at the 2010 Prius TSB regarding the fix for delayed hydraulic braking in the event ABS disables regenerative braking then it becomes quite clear that NipponDenso has overlooked, until now, the need for this type of time out.



    It appears, from reading the TSB, that the early HSD control ECU was sometimes LATE (to busy, too many other more important tasks..??) in responding to the skid control ECU's query and the skid control ECU simply stood by and waited.



    Meanwhile......NO braking.
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