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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    How can that be? Their EDR only has read out for 5 sec before and 2 seconds after? And seems almost impossible for 250 brake pedal presses. Didn't understand how they could determine this?

    System did not showed no errors or malfunctions.

    Quite confused about all the information they provided Monday, but yet in past they always told people/lawyers/law enforcement they had no valuable information, none, or info on EDR limited, was varied and different, or they refused to provide. EDR available since late 1970's and available.

    Am I missing something here?? Do there vehicles have any other recorded monitoring systems???

    .
  • oparroparr Posts: 61
    Now the ANTI Toyota faithful will be saying that there's no way an old guy could press the bakes and gas 250 times alternately without messing up and activating the brake override system or something else equally ridiculous.

    In any case, I think one would need to use both feet to activate BO. Apparently what he did was press the gas pedal to gain sufficient momentum, release the gas pedal, then press the brake pedal with the same foot, release the brake pedal, then press the gas again to regain the lost momentum. And to think all the experts, including Toyota, couldn't figure out why the BO didn't operate.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Went in today to Toyota delalership for service check. Must say they were really nice this time. In past they had always seemed rushed. Not today, as were very customer friendly. Explained my problem issues quite well pc work. Very impressed. .
  • The point is to know what the sequence is before you have a UA. Brakes? If they don't work - try Neutral - If you are still accelerating - turn on your flashers. Look for a place to pull over - turn off the ignition (which on my car is not firmware, is not a push button but an old fashioned key and a hardware switch), stand on the brakes and pull over. Seems like a better plan than just crashing into something or praying at 120 mph or calling 911. Now if turning the car off doesn't work, praying is probably not out of the question although I think Id look for a car moving into the same direction as me to run into.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Great article. Where did you find it??
  • gtgtcobragtgtcobra Posts: 259
    Has the Camry problem been resolved by putting the shim on the gas pedal? Toyota service put a shim on my gas pedal on my 2010 Camry LE. I've been hearing in the news that Toyota now thinks that the gas pedal sticking could be caused from a computer problem inside the car somewhere. When I called Toyota service yesterday and asked about this, they told me that ONLY certain VIN numbers for the 2010 Camry LE need their computers reprogrammed. They didn't give me a straight answer as to whether or not they knew that the computer inside the Camry was the cause of the gas pedals sticking. It's like Toyota service has "no clue" as to what's going on or they don't want to say anything about it.
    Does anybody in here have any concrete information and updates on the 2010 Camry as to what the real cause of the gas pedal sticking is? Is it a computer problem? Or did Toyota service already fix the problem by putting a shim on the gas pedal like they did on my car? I would like to know.
  • xluxlu Posts: 457
    they told me that ONLY certain VIN numbers for the 2010 Camry LE need their computers reprogrammed

    Here it comes, the secret firmware/electronics fix; after Toyota repeatedly and firmed deny anything wrong with the electronics.

    Liar liar..
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    Does anybody in here have any concrete information and updates on the 2010 Camry as to what the real cause of the gas pedal sticking is?

    Toyota owners have reported additional cases of SUA/UA after having both the floor mat and the pedal recall done. As to whether the Toyota dealer knows anything more, I seriously doubt that Toyota explained anything to the dealer since they deny SUA.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,903
    edited March 2010
    Yes, you are missing something. It is my understanding that the Prius has another computer in addition to the edr that records much more information. Non hybrid cars do not have this specific hybrid computer.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • mickeyrommickeyrom Posts: 936
    Since obviously these complainants of the SUA have survived,does anybody know how they managed to stop their cars?
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,235
    I think it's a combination of things. Just using Mrs Smith's testimony, she burned up (actually "flamed out") her brakes to the the car to slow down. Then, whatever series of events she did to get the computer to actually get the car to stop, from jamming the "on/off" button (supposed to take 3 second push to turn off the engine), and/or shifting it into neutral (which after successive failed attempts to do so) got the engine out of gear.

    Not sure of the exact sequence, but that would be my guess.

    Others that have been reported (like with the Prius) there were successive steps, seemingly in random order, which got the cars to stop.

    Some weren't as fortunate. There was at least one report that a wall stopped their Toyota, one had their car careen out of control into a ravine. Some even died trying to get their Lexus to stop.
  • Don't understand what you were trying to say here. Maybe that was your intent?
  • doidoadieseldoidoadiesel Posts: 59
    edited March 2010
    http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/complaints/index.cfm
    Do a vehicle search by year, Manufacturer and Model and component - Most complaints related to UA seem to fall under the component VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL - after you retrieve the complaints you can click on SUMMARY and read the actual complaint. Some are well written and logical, others are rambling and inconclusive and not all will be related to an actual acceleration event. You can get a good idea that there is something real happening as well as a lot of complaints that aren't relevant to much of anything. There are 15000 complaints in their database so it is a little tedious to separate the wheat from the chaff. Another annoyance is that the COMPONENT drop down menu is not consistent from CAR to CAR or even year to year. Good source of anecdotal information but as a Data resource it is seriously flawed on a number of levels.
  • oparroparr Posts: 61
    edited March 2010
    Here it comes, the secret firmware/electronics fix; after Toyota repeatedly and firmed deny anything wrong with the electronics.

    Don't be silly, Toyota would not be in this mess if they had brake override installed and working when they went drive-by-wire. They should have learned from Audi's debacle.

    On another note....I get the brake override upgrade on Saturday (2009 Camry) and would like to know the simplest OQ test to confirm workability. For example, will revving the car with one foot while stationary then pressing the brakes with the other foot trigger the brake override?

    I'll ask again at the dealership but would prefer advance knowledge, as always, before entering the "belly of the beast".
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Posts: 936
    I watched many of the "what to do in cases of UA" on youtube.The first solution on official videos is to simply put your foot on the brake pedal,because if you are giving it gas and braking at the same time,the engine will just shut down.They demonstrated that very quickly.Here is my problem.If that is true,how did that guy in California burn out his brakes if the act of braking would shut his engine down? My thoughts are like this.This works on a normally functioning car but not an out of control computer caused acceleration.The same would apply to the Start/stop button, as well as putting the shift lever into neutral.
    Faulty electronics in a Prius would leave you no real options.Please talk me off the ledge,because I have a 2007 Prius which I totally mistrust. :lemon:
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Posts: 936
    My dealer told me that my 2007 Prius has a brake override built in.Problem is since it is all interconnected with their computers,if the failure is with the electronics...would it still work?
  • doidoadieseldoidoadiesel Posts: 59
    edited March 2010
    at least from my experience. It definitely does nothing if the vehicle is in park or neutral - with left foot on the brake you can still accelerate with your right foot. If you put the car in gear, with your foot on the brake, with the care at rest, it seems that you can accelerate the engine with the brakes holding it back. The few times I have tried it while moving - accelerating with the right foot and applying the brake with the left - the BO appears to work as designed - the car will decelerate rapidly (not just from braking but from accelerator being cut out) - and when you take your foot off the brake - the car accelerates to the former speed. It is not a natural way to drive though and there is a bit of muscle skill and concentration to ensure that your accellerator pressure does not vary while you are applying the brakes with your other foot. But from my few tests - it does appear to work this way. I never tried this at high speed though. Also don't try it with traffic around you. It isn't your normal manner of driving and driving with two feet is strongly discouraged unless you have a manual transmission and your left foot is only for the clutch. On retrospect - I'm wishing I'd found a manual tranny!!!! By the way, I have a 2010 Camry LE 4 cyl auto.
  • castg1castg1 Posts: 34
    I think The safest way is to make the brake pedal the overall authority. Maybe Put a mechanical cable connected to the brake pedal that will in some way mechanically pull that throttle plate in closed/idle position.

    Those 'emergency' maneuvers shown in youtube.. They all work -- because the testers are aware that a UA will happen. They neglected the reality of the human brain. That there is a 'computing' lag in the brain when the 'least expected' UA occurs. The brain is already 100% capacity cruising along the car pool lane in high speed for example, judging the speed of surrounding traffic.. etc. Then 'boom' a UA occurs... There is not enough time. The reflex is to hit the brake to slowdown the car. They should focus on and make use of the 'braking' reflex. Instead of some fancy maneuvers.. put to neutral this, press stop button 5 seconds that.. Who can remember those in times of panic?
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,329
    edited March 2010
    The reflex is to hit the brake to slowdown the car. They should focus on and make use of the 'braking' reflex. Instead of some fancy maneuvers.. put to neutral this, press stop button 5 seconds that.. Who can remember those in times of panic?

    Any driver who is licensed and qualified to drive upon US roads should remember in times of panic and/or otherwise.

    Next, were all going to make excuses for people that fail to have that "brake" reflex. People will say, the UA startled me so much, I forgot to try the brake because the accelerator was non responsive and the car "just took off on me."

    I think the requirement for a brake "override" feature is equivalent to the dumbing down of America and it is no easier to hit the brakes than it is to shift to neutral.

    Also, most American driver's I see on the road are driving on about 5% of their brains capacity, not 100%. They should be using about 50%, 100% is not necessary. I think that the act of talking on a cell phone uses about 60% of your brain capacity, so that is why driving and talking on a cell phone is ill advised. I believe the diffirence between the use of a single hand on a phone vs. a head set or some other hands free device is negligible.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,329
    If that is true,how did that guy in California burn out his brakes if the act of braking would shut his engine down?

    The answer lies in the investigators' research into that Prius.

    The driver intermittently and alternately hit the accelerator and brake over 250 times. So he kept lightly hitting the brakes, then hitting the gas to recover any lost speed, then repeated, over and over. (This is a fact retrieved from the prius' on-board computer). The Wall Street Journal found investigators that said the brakes were found to indicate wear consistent with being depressed LIGHTLY for an extended amount of time or times.

    Also, he may have done about twenty 60-0 brake runs down an alley to overheat and wear out his brakes before he even got on the freeway (but this is speculation on my part).
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    Exactly. As the problem (or could be problemS) remains unknown (or undisclosed), if there is an electronic or software problem, then all systems that are integrated and communicating with each other, are fallible.

    As an engineer, I do not design systems that rely on the On/Off switch - which is wired into an electronic controller, or a sensor, or an electronic relay, or the software code for that system to work and be error-free. If I want to stop a machine I design it such that the energy can be disconnected without going through any electronics. The kill-switch mechanically disconnects the energy source.

    A vehicle has 2 energy sources - 1) gasoline or diesel fuel, 2) the battery to ignite that fuel. Drivers are not given a way to disconnect either when driving which is a serious (eElectrical and Software) engineering-philosophy-flaw.

    That flaw is probably a result of:
    a) engineering arrogance; but humans make mistakes
    b) Marketing concerns - no manufacturer wants to alarm potential customers by having a mechanical kill switch, if the others don't
    c) Cost - it might cost $50/vehicle to add a mechanical kill method; manufacturers try and squeeze the last $0.05 out of most cars. They can't even put a set of car-mats in to match what Walmart sells for $10!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,991
    I think the requirement for a brake "override" feature is equivalent to the dumbing down of America and it is no easier to hit the brakes than it is to shift to neutral.

    I think the same can be said for Stability control, traction control and ABS brakes. All added to Toyotas problematic DBW systems. Power steering and brakes are nice. Not really needed.

    I agree, anything that is distracting such as cell phones or munching donuts are bad news. Especially driving vehicles that are prone to erratic anomalies.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,235
    Faulty electronics in a Prius would leave you no real options.Please talk me off the ledge,because I have a 2007 Prius which I totally mistrust.

    Well...allegedly you car has brake over ride installed already. I would certainly take it into your Toyota dealer to confirm that fact (along with a written statement of confirmation).

    But, if the electronics are haywire, as some have reported, I'd practice in an empty parking lot on what you'd do if you experience UA. Accelerate and practice throwing the gearshift into "neutral" while standing on the brakes is where I'd begin. While you're at it, review and practice holding down the "start/stop" button while accelerating, too....so you know the procedures that are supposed to work in that instance, also.

    Practice doing all of those things at the same time.
  • Yeah - that is the person I want to share the road with, the one talking/texting on their cell phone who hasn't learned how to park a car. Jesus, people - take the bus!
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    edited March 2010
    If you listen to Ms Smith's testimony carefully it appears that she brought her car to a stop on the "soft" shoulder with the drive wheels, DRIVEN wheels still spinning furiously on the soft tuff. Only once she lost the forward momentum/inertial effects was she able to brake hard enough that the front wheel speed declined below ~35MPH and she able to take control of the engine RPM.

    35MPH is the approximate speed the cruise control would be disabled normally by its own internal action.

    The problem with SUA is that the cruise control gets "stuck" in the "set/accel" mode, continuously executing the "set/accel" firmware sub-routine with no normal "break-out" operational.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Sorry, you're probably stuck out there on that ledge until the end of time.

    Even once Toyota/NipponDenso find the firmware flaw they are not likely to disclose the fact. My guess would be that it has already been found. There are not certainly enough clues, input, to put them hard on the "trail".

    Eventually you will get a "reflash" for some "non-threatening" firmware flaw that actually includes the SUA fix.
  • Also, he may have done about twenty 60-0 brake runs down an alley to overheat and wear out his brakes before he even got on the freeway (but this is speculation on my part).

    I doubt he would have to do that lol. His car had 50 thousand or more miles on it, so when was the last time that the brake pads were replaced. If they were original pads, then there might not have been a lot left when this happened. The media and everyone goes on how the brakes were worn down during this UA and all the braking but they were probably worn down to begin with. If the pads have been replaced then Mr. Sykes should produce a work order and make his story a little more believable.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,903
    According to Mrs. Smith it was "Divine Intervention".

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • PMOPMO Posts: 278
    How is it that 10% or 38,000,000 are out of work not driving and you feel the accident rate is down because of car safety . This would in fact tell you are wrong, in fact if you facture this information out accidents are up inspite of your data.
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