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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall



  • castg1castg1 Posts: 34
    When I step on the brakes, I want the engine to stop
    pushing the car forward. i.e. close that throttle plate to idle position. I will have maximum vacuum assist for the brakes. If a brake override system ensures this functionality, then I want it in my car.

    Also I expect the brake override system to be monitored and will have CEL codes
    when it fails. This will address the problem of future false claims of 'my brake override system failed'.
  • oparroparr Posts: 65
    Here is my problem.If that is true,how did that guy in California burn out his brakes if the act of braking would shut his engine down?

    Sikes was not the humble innocent he tried to make us believe. You have probably read how he did it by now so I won't waste time repeating.
  • oparroparr Posts: 65
    But from my few tests - it does appear to work this way. I never tried this at high speed though. Also don't try it with traffic around you.

    Okay, thanks. I travel 52 miles a day on the highway so there are many places I can test it. Was hoping to test it at the dealer before leaving but I guess that would be difficult.
  • oparroparr Posts: 65
    I think the requirement for a brake "override" feature is equivalent to the dumbing down of America and it is no easier to hit the brakes than it is to shift to neutral.

    Well, based on the fact that hitting the brakes in an emergency, or just stopping normally, is a tried and true reflex action, it should be easier. All drive-by-wire cars should have BO and I hope the NHTSA follows through on this. Couldn't care less what the "heel and toe" guys have to say.
  • doidoadieseldoidoadiesel Posts: 59
    edited March 2010
    The fatality rate has been trending down since 2005, the unemployment rate has been at 10% for about a year and up from an average of about 5% unemployment in any given prior year so the unemployment rate is really only up 5% over the last year. Yes, 10 percent of the 380 million population is 38 million, but not all 380 million are not participating in the work force. If you throw out those under 18 and those over 65 who are not counted as part of the work force this number is greatly decreased. If you throw out those that have never been part of the labor force because they are stay at home parents, or suffering from some severe mental of physical defect and those who are chronically unemployed or full time students, it is even further decreased. Actually the percent of the population participating in the labor force at all is about 65% according to BLS. There is also nothing that says that people who are looking for work are driving less than people who have jobs either. People working part time or working two jobs may actually be driving more, they aren't going to find a job by staying home and licking the peanut butter jar for the 4th time - so you are simply guessing, and not very accurately at that. People that drive their personal vehicle to work aren't the only ones who have lost their job either - I imagine that quite a few of them rode the bus, or the subway, or walked to work so they weren't driving anyway.

    I am just giving you the trend line and that is that the motor vehicle fatality rate has been falling for almost 5 years. It would be nice to know whether vehicle miles driven is also down, which I don't know. If we knew that VMD was down as well we also would not be sure why, High gas prices could also lower VMD as well as other issues, including unemployment. So the death rate is down and the use of high technology in cars is trending up. I do not know for a fact that there is a causal relationship at all. It was just an observation. Does this clear it up for you?
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,343
    How is it that 10% or 38,000,000 are out of work not driving and you feel the accident rate is down because of car safety . This would in fact tell you are wrong, in fact if you facture this information out accidents are up inspite of your data.

    None of those 38 million unemployed ever drive? You have data on that? I would think the unemployed would be driving around going to job interviews and searching out a new job.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,972
    edited March 2010
    regen braking from wiki. look under limitations
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Posts: 44
    Sharon, I found an article on The Wall Street Journal website, and it was linked by the author to the site I linked. I tried to figure out what article it was, and I couldn't find it without reading every article, so I had to give up. Sorry.
  • djohnson1djohnson1 Posts: 44
    Kernick nailed it! A separate kill switch to shut engine off no matter what is what is needed. They would probably have to make sure the steering and brakes still worked when kill switch cuts it off.
  • berriberri Posts: 4,275
    Isn't that what the ACC position on the key ignition does already? The lawyers will love the cutoff switch though, because whenever someone bumps it unintentionally - another possible lawsuit to help make those BMW payments!
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,972
    do you have any real experience with toyota's great long-term reliability record?
    to me they seem like most vehicles, the people that treated them well, had good luck with them the ones that didn't had problems.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Even if the car had an ignition switch/key that had an "acc" position the engine/tranaxle computer might still be in a state wherein the inputs are being ignored.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,972
    edited March 2010
    this might be something that can duplicated on a dyno.
    my guess is it takes a long time to wear out the pads.
    also, if the regen brakes can be disabled, how much hydraulic braking power is available?
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    My guess is...

    You need to see the pictures of the ES350's brake rotor and pads.

    The regen is often disabled, anytime the ABS activates for instance.

    Very few hydraulic/frictional braking systems can quickly bring a car to a stop from highway speeds with the engine still DRIVING. With FWD, primary braking wheels being driven by a WOT runaway engine, maybe never.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,972
    i was part of this thread early on.
    the prius brakes are different than the es350.
    from what i have read, the hydraulic brakes are designed to pick up the lower speed 'slack' from the regen brakes.
    if the regen brakes are not working, how much hydraulic stopping power is there at high speed?
    in regards to the es350, a 'pursuit of perfection' product, the fact the one extra floor mat can cause a fatal outcome leaves me skeptical of their design and testing protocols.
    shaving off half the gas pedal is going to work as a fix, but why does that have to happen?
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,343
    in regards to the es350, a 'pursuit of perfection' product, the fact the one extra floor mat can cause a fatal outcome leaves me skeptical of their design and testing protocols.

    To be fair to Lexus' designers and engineers, it took at least 2 dozen serious driver errors and poor choices to make a floor mat cause a fatal outcome.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    it took at least 2 dozen serious driver errors and poor choices to make a floor mat cause a fatal outcome.

    Or one dumb designer err engineer.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660 ory?id=10114198&page=3 y-prius/

    Once stopped CHP officer Neibert asked if he had any known medical conditions.
    Mr. Sikes related:
    High Blood Pressue - daily rx
    Hx Cardiac Bypass Surgery - 5 way - 5 yrs ago

    C/O - chest tightness

    CHP Officer Neibert - dispatched for ambulance reponse to scene to evaluate patient condition - c/o chest tightness - medical conditions - high pressure & hx bypass surgery

    AMR - American Medical Response Ambulance w Paramedic/EMT- responded - arrived at scene

    Neibert report Paramedic/EMT medical evaluation - BP & pulse quite elevated - continued monitoring BP & pulse & symtoms, verbal questions - vital signs eventually & gradually dropped to acceptable level - patient not transported
  • popsavalonpopsavalon Posts: 230
    Why do folks (berri) not understand that all functions on late model autos are routed thru the computer in some manner. In the event of catastrophic computer malfunction (UA, etc.), none of the inputs, such as turning off the ignition, or shifting to neutral, may work.

    We are not driving 1990s technology where everything had a positive mechanical linkage, or off-on switch. Maybe we should be!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,173
    We are not driving 1990s technology where everything had a positive mechanical linkage, or off-on switch. Maybe we should be!

    Yes, maybe we should be. If Toyota cannot build fail safe DBW electronics, software, firmware and hardware, they should go back to the tried and proven reliable systems of the 1990s.

    I don't know what Toyota expects when they buy their parts made in 3rd world hell holes using slave labor.

    Time for the NHTSA to step up to the plate and do their job. Stop looking the other way when they have 1000s of complaints of legitimate UA that are never investigated.
  • I may be wrong but I'm pretty certain that vehicles with keys have Mechanical /Hardware Ignition switches. I would be very uncomfortable with a vehicle made by anyone that is push button on and off which is clearly tied to firmware. How many other manufacturers have gone to the push button method? I know I've seen recent Kia adds with this technology. More importantly - Why? This looks like gimmicry to me and we shouldn't be fixing things that aren't broken. I can see all sorts of reasons for drive by wire in terms of (potential) safety and fuel efficiency, as long as they are truly fail safe. But to do away with a mechanical ignition switch does not gain in anything involving safety or efficiency. I suppose it is cheaper though - which unfortunately seems to drive everything. Follow the money - always, and there you will find the explanation.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,343
    edited March 2010
    In the event of catastrophic computer malfunction (UA, etc.), none of the inputs, such as turning off the ignition, or shifting to neutral, may work.

    That would be like lightning striking your head, your chest, your pelvis, and your feet all at the same time from 4 different directions in 4 separate strikes all in one second. It is so highly improbable that it is impossible to believe that all separate systems fail at the same time (ignition system, transmission system, steering system, acceleration system, braking system, E-Brake system). It's just too much to believe.

    Also, in reports of people having UA, there have been some that said they shifted into neutral or turned the ignition off and there was no issue or hassle. Guess what, it works! UA really isn't a big deal.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Looks like Wall Street Journal is just blocking because they want you to pay for subscription. Sorry, this has happened to me many times in past. Just the Murdock empire.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    edited March 2010
    They might have multiple computers on board but in too many cases they must "talk" to each other in order to be functional. A "key" computer fails, the firmware crawls into a rathole, and all is lost.

    In the Sikes Prius case the HSD system controller/computer "failed"(***) in a manner in which it either would not communicate, or sent the wrong information, to the skid control computer. That resulted in the loss of a portion, or all, hydraulic braking.

    *** Stuck in a tight loop executing only the "set/accel" function.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,173
    What is your take on Toyota coming up with this record of alternating brake and accelerator being depressed? I find it mighty suspicious. And something that would be hard to prove one way or another. Once they do a reset to the on board computer. I would like for an independent engineer to analyze one of the wrecked Prius. Find out if what Toyota is telling the public is true. Of course they probably disconnect the 12 volt battery right after a wreck conveniently wiping out any information that may be stored.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Posts: 936
    That is EXACTLY what worries me.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    edited March 2010
    Gary says, "What is your take on Toyota coming up with this record of alternating brake and accelerator being depressed? I find it mighty suspicious."

    I find it "reporting the facts."

    If ANYONE thinks that Toyota is not doing their HONEST BEST to get to the bottom of these problems AT THIS JUNCTURE, then you are completely so far off base as to not be in the stadium.

    After the beating 'Yota has JUSTIFIABLY taken in the press and in the eyes of the public, no one should doubt that they are doing their level best to get to the bottom of these issues and get them solved so EVERYONE can move on, and so they can start rebuilding their rightful reputation.

    They might have been "hiding" things in the beginning, to save face, but at this point, they have no face left to save, so why would they CONTINUE to try and hide anything?

    Preposterous to think they are hiding things at this point. Totally ridiculous.
  • PMOPMO Posts: 278
    So what you are hinting at NHTSA is on the right track in contacting two English Engineers that are more capable than any members on staff (165) Engineers at NHTSA ? and Toyota would be better off talking to the too (two) .This is a good guess on your part because in the USA it looks as though only WWEST has a clue and the rest are Dealer (Toyota) bound to be told this is normal?
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    I have very little doubt that somewhere very well hidden from the public eye Toyota and NipponDenso are desparately searching for the causative factor. I also wouldn't be surprised if the causative factor, cruise control coding error, hasn't already been found but now the problem arises as what story to use as "cover" to install a "mundane" "reflash" that actually includes the true firmware coding fix.

    Meanwhile the "smoke screen" PR "machine" grinds on.

    They concluded that the gas pedal and brake pedal had been cycled 256 times because the information that the computer stored for that those variables was ZERO and since that was a practicle impossibility the counter MUST have rolled over to ZERO.

    256 cycles over WHAT time period. The computer counted a MAXIMUM of 256 and then stopped counting least the counter overflow.

    I could see the Sikes making multiple efforts to get the brakes to work, pumping the brake pedal again and again, or even jabbing at the gas pedal to get it to "release". But 250 times in the time period of the runaway...NOT..!!
  • mnfmnf Posts: 404
    edited March 2010
    There is and always be some that think the Words is flat, we never landed on the moon, the government is behind 911, Elvis and MJ are alive, and Homer Simpson is real. We will never change them thats what the live for .If the world had no problems it would be a boring place for them. ;)
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