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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,046
    >installing brake over ride will not solve Toyota's UA problems. What it WILL DO, is to offer the driver an easy way to bring the car under control if it does experience UA (just tap the brake pedal).

    If the computer responds to the input from the brake pedal correctly.

    If the current UA is related to cruise control portion of the machine language, the brake pedal that doesn't respond now to cancelling cruise won't respond to cancelling full acceleration for runaway unintended acceleration. :sick:

    The brake interlock needs to be superior to the computer's core operation.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Good for you! You got under the second expanded list of Toyota models for brake override. Congratulations.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Steve alerted me I should have addressed this to you.

    I just remembered you had asked me about the air conditioning issue in your Porsche. I am so sorry I forgot. Spoke with my son last night. He has a 2005 911 Turbo 996 Chasis(hope I got this 996 # correct?), and has had no such problems. Works fine and was driving all the time until recently. Engineers are working on a pet project he gave them re: something?

    He wasn't quite sure what was happening with your vehicle. Sort of out of his expertise area. But he did say he had heard of no problems, but that didn't mean anything either to him.
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 39,980
    edited March 2010
    Time to get your game hat on and solve the million dollar question:

    Unintended Acceleration - Find the Cause

    (It was going to be $64,000 dollars, but inflation set in).

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  • I seem to be having trouble communicating this point. The brake override software update is probably not good news. Brake override will only work when everything is running fine (i.e. you are not experiencing UA). If everything is running fine (you are not experiencing UA), then you don't need brake override.

    The brake override logic that the computer needs to process is: "IF brake is depressed, THEN set engine to idle" regardless of the position of the gas pedal.

    If you are experiencing UA, then the computer is hung/frozen/hosed. If the computer is in this state at the time the brake gets depressed, the computer is not going to do anything to bring the engine to idle. That would explain why it also does not respond to a change in shifter position or "engine off" button presses.
  • eliaselias Posts: 1,898
    hello sharonkl.
    YES it makes sense to me that brake-override cannot simply be programmed into some/older models without adding new hardware. The required new hardware could include: flash memory, interface electronics between disparate computers/systems (aka ECMs), and/or additional computers/ECMs.
  • I have a 2009 corolla, vin number NOT starting with a "J". wife contacted dealer today, gave them vin, and was told that the car is NOT on the recall list. Given this is a 2000 post string, I might have missed something, but how is it not there?
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 39,980
    If you are experiencing UA, then the computer is hung/frozen/hosed

    Redundant computer? Didn't the Apollo spacecraft have 4 computers running one program and a 5th running an entirely different program as a failsafe?

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  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,099
    carbuff...brake over ride is exactly that, the brake over riding the accelerator assembly, throttle control, etc.

    In short, regardless of the position of the accelerator pedal, the amount of RPMs the engine is revving, the speed your going, etc, but hitting the brake pedal, all of that is overriden and the engine drops back to idle and the brakes stop like they normally would.

    Later models (say 2004-5 and up, have the capability to be reflahsed with the brake over ride software. Some older models do not (requiring an ECU and/or EPRM replacement) to accept the brake over ride reflash.

    Toyota/Lexus is installing brake over ride in the new models coming off the assembly line. They have to do the same for previous models that do not have the brake over fide work around. This is what Toyota is stonewalling, since it would entail another recall. My contention is they should have done it while trying to convince us that "sticky pedals" and floormats were recalled.

    My belief is they should do it to every vehicle they've produced since 2004. Anything before that would probably have quite a few miles on them, and could have other safety issues because of wear and tear that have nothing to do with Toyota's failings.

    But, the reason Toyota is stonewalling is because they don't want to expend the money for yet another recall. They've already admitted fault by recalling for the alleged sticky pedals/floormats, Prius braking issues (which are more than likely related to their software glitches), cruise control problems, poorly engineered drive shafts in some of their trucks, the Corolla power steering issues....the list just goes on and on.
  • gizzer777gizzer777 Posts: 336
    edited March 2010
    Hmmmm....I would check your VIN here (Toyota site)

    http://www.toyotaownersonline.com/sscinfo?siteid=too_toyota_recall_vinlookup

    if that doesn't work, call Toyota USA (if you are in the USA) and get written confirmation!

    1-800-331-4331 Toyota USA!

    Just a suggestion
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    edited March 2010
    "..Toyota/Lexus is installing brake over ride.."

    Yes, and it would be a fairly sure bet that they are doing it using a failsafe and foolproof method, certainly not something that can be accolplished via a simple "reflash". My guess would be that they are adding another microprocessor module inside the engine/transaxle controlling ECU "module".

    To be really foolproof/failsafe the BTO cannot rely on the original control system processor(s), it MUST be separate and independent in its operation. I would suggest that it continously monitor the brake light switch, the brake fluid pressure sensor level, the throttle plate position sensors, and the EFI PWM dutycycle.

    If the brake light switch OR the brake fluid pressure sensor output indicates the brakes are being applied AND the throttle plate is above idle OR the EFI PWM dutycycle is too high THEN open the ground return circuit for the EFI injectors.

    "..they should do it it to every vehicle they've produced since 2004.."

    As I hope you can now see, that would REQUIRE a swap out, exchange of every engine/transaxle control module.

    It's really is unreasonable for Toyota to take on those expenses before a certain and sure determination of base cause is determined.
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 39,980
    "The new number of 52 deaths was surfaced by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, part of the Department of Transportation. Federal officials haven't formally confirmed the links between deaths and Toyota defects but have received a spike in complaints since Toyota began a series of big recalls in October.

    Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said Tuesday his agency may recommend that every new vehicle sold in the U.S. be equipped with brakes that can override the gas pedal."

    Government weighs requiring brake overrides (MSNBC)

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  • wayne52wayne52 Posts: 26
    Time to get your game hat on and solve the million dollar question:

    Unintended Acceleration - Find the Cause

    (It was going to be $64,000 dollars, but inflation set in).


    It's George Bush's fault (if it's still not too late to tag him). Just keep the cash as the answer to this (and any other) problem was just too obvious. :)
  • Yes that would be a workable approach. The approach taken in several models that have brake override simply use a second processor or chip independent of the main computer and that is it's only job, to perform the brake override function. In models such as Toyota that do not have this separate hardware to begin with, it would take a long time to develop retrofit kit for existing cars. Thus the only quick approach available for Toyota to add this now is the reflash of the existing software.
  • Thanks. I'm not sure how many ways it needs to be said, but that was a good one. :)
  • I checked. and it said that there are NO recalls on my vehicle, made in north america 2009 corolla.
  • gizzer777gizzer777 Posts: 336
    edited March 2010
    Next step is to get a service History on your Corolla. Toyota USA can supply and your dealer should be able to pull it up too!...

    I have not heard of it but I thought all 2009 NA produced Corollas had the CTS pedal...perhaps not. Suggest you call Toyota USA and get the skivvy. Also you should be on the recall list for the corolla Floormat recall yet to take place.

    (I am among those that do not think it is the pedal either...But I will follow the Manufacturer's recommendations.... to avoid negligent liability on me, possibility in case of "an incident")

    They have been known to screw up from time to time :P ....better safe than sorry!!! If your 09 was recently purchased, it may already have the "shimmy" but I am guessing.

    Here is a link to determine if you have a Denso(No recall YET) or CTS pedal if you have not seen it yet...might be of help!

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/exclusive-ttac-takes-apart-both-toyota-gas-peda- - ls/

    BTW: what are the 1st 3 digits of your VIN? (a 17 digit number!)

    Good Luck with it
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    You can also google Toyota USA Newsroom. Press releases and announcements are at bottom of page, then can go to next, etc. Hopefully this may help keep you more up to date on what Toyota has actually documented. Some bloggers have posted they got no calls/letters.

    Good luck.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,099
    wwest...no disagreement. In order for Toyota to stick to their research and promises of making their customers' safety and their quality paramount, then they need to implement the brake over ride system....in their UA affected vehicles. If it takes just a reflash...do it.

    If it takes an ECU and/or EPROM swapout plus electronics/software reflash, DO IT.

    No price can be put upon the future safety of Toyota vehicles, and of those who encounter those drivers/vehicles on a daily basis....PERIOD!
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Please excuse my ignorance.

    Questions:
    (1)Do we really know how/what Toyota is actually going to do re: brake override?

    I now understand the preferred system. Sure didn't when I started posting here. Thanks for the info.
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