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Acura RL

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Comments

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Flattening the torque curve at above 5,000 rpms is a LOT less useful than flattening the torque curve below 5,000 rpms, especially if one has an auto tranny

    What is your opinion on an engine that gives you strong torque curve at low rpm, mid range and top end? Is it bad idea to get more torque at high rpm even if it doesn't affect the low end, and even if it is "less useful" (as you put it) than "some engine speed" that is supposedly more useful?

    The dyno of Acura 3.5/V6 (which, BTW, is an existing engine) clearly shows engine delivering about 310 Nm at 1500 rpm (310 Nm = 230 lb.-ft), and it continues to develop at least as much until about 6000 rpm. Why would it be better to see a drop in torque curve after 5000 rpm in this case? Explain.

    If it takes a 4.2- liter engine to move you, then there is no point taking this further. But you must realize that a 3.5-liter displacement can do only so much in terms of torque. A 4.2-liter engine displaces 20% more, so if Acura were to develop a 4.2 engine, I would expect it to produce at least 300 lb.-ft (not 275 lb.-ft) at peak.
  • abqhudsonabqhudson Posts: 14
    I was leafing through a 2005 Preview magazine at the store today and read that the 2005 RL would weigh 3893. Sounds heavy to me - hope that this report is in error.

    Jim
  • saugataksaugatak Posts: 488
    What is your opinion on an engine that gives you strong torque curve at low rpm, mid range and top end? Is it bad idea to get more torque at high rpm even if it doesn't affect the low end, and even if it is "less useful" (as you put it) than "some engine speed" that is supposedly more useful?

    As long as it doesn't affect low to mid range, it's OK. I'm not criticizing Honda's work with the TSX. I'm just saying that a significant number of drivers (especially those with auto trannies) are never (or very rarely) going to appreciate the work that Honda put into flattening the torque curve at higher rpms.

    The dyno of Acura 3.5/V6 (which, BTW, is an existing engine) clearly shows engine delivering about 310 Nm at 1500 rpm (310 Nm = 230 lb.-ft), and it continues to develop at least as much until about 6000 rpm. Why would it be better to see a drop in torque curve after 5000 rpm in this case? Explain.

    I never said maintaining a flat torque curve beyond 5,000 rpms was bad. I said that most drivers of automatics will never get above 5,000 rpms, so how useful is flattening the torque curve beyond 5,000 rpms going to be?

    I drive my MDX pretty hard and I never get it above 4,500 rpms. I suppose if I really stomped the pedal I could get it to 5,000 rpms before the shift, but why? Is it safe to drive a 4,500 pound SUV like that?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    If it weighs 3893 lb., it would be 5 lb. lighter than the current RL! The current base model Audi A6/Quattro (220 HP) weighs in at 3880 lb (the V8 adds another 140 lb. or so).

    Rumors have suggested a curb weight of 1700 kg (3750 lb.), but we must also consider all the frills that add weight. For instance, just adding NAV seems to add 20-25 lb. to the curb weight.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I never said maintaining a flat torque curve beyond 5,000 rpms was bad. I said that most drivers of automatics will never get above 5,000 rpms, so how useful is flattening the torque curve beyond 5,000 rpms going to be?

    To them who do (like me). Hey, you can’t blame GM for equipping Corvette with 350+ HP engines, if a person isn’t using the potential. Could you? :-)

    This goes on to say that most large V8 engines are useless (more so than flattening of torque curves at any engine speed). But, I’m aware that you will never agree to it.

    I drive my MDX pretty hard and I never get it above 4,500 rpms. I suppose if I really stomped the pedal I could get it to 5,000 rpms before the shift, but why? Is it safe to drive a 4,500 pound SUV like that?

    What has 5000 rpm got to do with safety? Are you suggesting that the MDX tends to be a bit too powerful past 5000 rpm? Believe it or not, modern engines are being increasingly designed to deliver peak power around 6000 rpm or higher. Even the Trailblazer 4.2/I-6 gets its 270 HP at 6000 rpm. How is it a terrible idea for Acura to get 265 HP at 5800 rpm?
  • saugataksaugatak Posts: 488
    Tell you what. In the interests of ending this pointless discussion, you win.
  • saugataksaugatak Posts: 488
    I've expressed the viewpoint that constantly redlining your engine is a good way to thrash your engine. Several of you have disagreed, saying that modern engines are built to take such punishment.

    I asked my bro, a mechanic, what he thought and here's a summary of his opinions:

    1. Occasionally redlining an engine is OK because it can help the oil seals to seal. BUT it should not be done prior to completion of break-in period as it will carbonate various engine parts, scratch the pistons, and greatly reduce the life of the engine.

    2. Constantly redlining can only be maintained if you regularly change oil. If you're going to redline your engine constantly, he recommends changing oil every 1,500 miles, or better yet, use Mobil 1 and change it frequently.

    3. You will need to change your timing belt MUCH more frequently if you constantly redline your engine. He recommends checking your timing belt at least once a month if you redline frequently.

    4. High revving will magnify any imperfecton in the engine and often cause a host of related problems. For example, one of his customes who has a leadfoot brought his car to be fixed and it had a small defective area in the manifold. High revving caused that area to warp more and faster than it should have. Because this customer failed to have the manifold replaced, and continued to redline his car, his engine suffered a host of other problems due to faulty intake. Therefore, someone who revs their engine a lot should check it much more frequently to make sure there are no such imperfections.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,069
    . . .at least in my eyes -- a bit.

    Yesterday, I went to Barnes & Noble and made my way around to the magazine section. Since I subscribe to just about anything car related, I often browse to see if there is something I missed.

    Somehow, I let my European Car magazine subscription lapse.

    New issue has both Audi TT and VW R32 on cover -- but the cover declares that inside there is a test of the new Audi A6. I have been reading so much stuff on the A6 and hunting for scraps on the RL and here again another magazine weighing in on the new Audi.

    European Car has not been all that kind to the A6 over the past few years. S6, RS 6 -- oh sure they gush over those. But the so called middle child has often been damned with faint praise or sometimes dis'd altogether.

    So, I opened the magazine half expecting some "left handed" compliments about the new A6, comparisons perhaps to the current (that is to say newest) BMW 5 series or perhaps even MB E class.

    No way.

    Whatever Audi has done has now, seemingly, impressed every editor that is given any column inches. The gushing, normally reserved for cars such as the RS 6 was now being lauded upon the new A6 IN BOTH V6 and V8 guise. Indeed, considerable ink was spent specifically on the V6 equipped car to claim, something like this: "you might think this car with the 3.2L would be a dog -- not so. . . ."

    The tag line was "both sporty and elegant."

    Now, those long term posters here in Acura-for-05-land, ought to know that I, for one, have pretty much narrowed down the next car to be parked in our garage as either the RL or the A6. The recent test drive of the Acrua TL, opening our eyes -- to say nothing of the argument I keep hearing from many on this board who claim that Acura is even more derserving of the phrase than Timex (and you know what phrase that is).

    This article is exactly what is needed NOW about the new RL. I mean, after all, with a $43K base price for the A6 and a $49,650 base for the RL, well, $6,650 will -- even on a German -- buy some pretty sweet option packages.

    I always used to think Audi (and even VW to a certain extent) had their timing all wrong and their ad-packages all wrong. I mean, I cannot even remember the last Audi TV spot I've seen in 2004.

    In any case, this industry seems to thrive on buzz -- where oh where is the Acura buzz.

    I would think, all the constant good press on the A6 has to "wound" the upcoming Acura a little bit, especially since even its most diehard fans, journalists and pundits often call the upcoming RL the "Japanese Audi A6."

    If I were Acura and I had my magic wand, I would be making sure that EVERY auto mag worth mentioning could get its hands on the new RL, sooner rather than later.
  • ksomanksoman Posts: 590
    so who pissed farther?

    geez guys, i think I saw the RL's ~dissapointing if 17"~ wheels turn 40 times and the thing hasn't hit the road!

    Maneesh, I've come to respect your knowledge of honda engines by reading your posts for several years on various edmunds fora, but you gotta let go.

    ksso
    sometimes you are the windshield, sometimes you are the bug!
  • steveaccordsteveaccord Posts: 108
    Hi guys,

    I got this tidbit from another forum and they refer to this link:

    http://www.globalauto.net/clipsheet.cfm?article_id=1866&today- =06/22/04&mode=display&brand_id=3

    The rumor refers to ongoing testing of a V8 prototype that will find several applications in the Acura lineup starting in 2007.

    Ciao, ciao.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    About 3-4 years ago, I had read of a news item that Honda had developed a 4.0-liter V8 pumping 509 HP for its “next NSX”. And this was from CNNfn website.

    CNNfn - June 30 1999 - "Honda to produce its first production V8s"
    The Press Company Multilink

    "The next generation NSX and Legend models from Honda will share a brand-new 4.0 litre V8 based on the technology used in the new S2000 sports car. The NSX replacement will be a 380kW (509 HP!) all-alloy mid-engined design, while the Legend will use the same engine in detuned form mounted up front but driving the rear wheels.

    Honda is in no hurry to build the new NSX as its specialist Tochigi factory is already running at full capacity, coping with demand for the S2000, which is running at several times the initial predictions for the car."


    But we all know, that hasn't happened (or there has been no follow up to the report).

    That said, looking at the history, Honda seems to have resisted the urge to develop and deliver V6 engines, and then came the diesel. So, it wouldn’t surprise me a bit if we do see a V8 from Honda. Then, we will start talking about V10s and V12s.

    In case of NSX, I don’t think the car needs a V8, but most people seem to want it. Instead, I would prefer to see the car have a sub-3K lb. curb weight like it did in 1989-90.

    So, from marketing point of view, Honda needs to develop a V8, and possibly use a bored/stroked version in its rumored premium sedan and even in couple of truck offerings, and even a new trim level for the RL.
  • ksomanksoman Posts: 590
    it also talks about a car, doesn't mention the RL at all... so is there a larger LS 430 competitor on the horizon? Shame on honda for squandering its resources on such a tiny market segment....

    ksso
  • legendmanlegendman Posts: 362
    >If I were Acura and I had my magic wand, I would be making sure that EVERY auto mag worth mentioning could get its hands on the new RL, sooner rather than later.<

    There are a lot of things that Honda and Acura do well: building well crafted, quality automobiles renown for the reliabiilty and precision engineering.

    What they don't do particularly well, in my view, is advertise or market well. Many of their prior TV ads for prior year RLs have been lackluster at best, and nearly always unmemorable. Add to this that they maintain an almost paranoid secrecy, holding their cards very close to their chests, leaving little but a black hole -- a void -- a dearth of information.

    I hope that the recent article in Automobile Magazine is not a portent of things to come for the new RL, but I have a feeling it may well be.

    For all of the wizardry that the SH-AWD created, whatever buzz it started back at the New York auto show, it has long since stopped vibrating. Edmunds.com's editiors refers to the new styling of the 2005 Acura RL as a bit bland.

    I agree with Mark, we need to be reading and hearing a lot about this car now. Saying nothing meanwhile the new A6 steals all the thunder is not good strategy, IMO. Just remember when the G35 was soon to reach the market. Infiniti had tease ads running several months before launch, and auto history knows that the G35 went on to do just fine. Granted, it had bold new looks and acclaimed performance, but I digress.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    This whole "low end torque vs high end hp" debate typically boils down to one question: How hard are you willing to step on the gas pedal? Nice to see that hasn't really changed. =)

    Mark - Yeah, it looks like Audi has created what I call a flawless car. Sometimes a car doesn't need to be leaps and bounds ahead of the competition. It doesn't need to have the most hp, the best handling, or best of anything. If the car eliminates anything that might annoy the driver and offers up a decent package, it wins accolades. I think the Accord often wins praise for doing things that way. Based on what I've read about the new A6, I'd say they've done the same. There's simply nothing to complain about.

    Legendman - Honda has always kept official new model information secret until just a few months before release. I understand that can be frustrating for the enthusiasts out here, but it's worked in the past. I believe the sales paradigm in effect is something like, "have your PR peak when the car is actually for sale." The limelight will only last so long.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Why do you continue to avoid (or just not bother to mention) the M35 AWD? It seems like it will be every bit as sporting as the RL (if not more so).
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,069
    I think I know what your response to my next statement will be, but -- I'll say it anyway.

    The M45, which I had hoped would be offered in AWD, will only be RWD. The M35, I suspect may not have the performance that I long for (but YOU may be right, read on).

    Having said that, the M35 probably would make it on my list if not for the following final reason: I have a LONG-Term relationship with the ownership of the Acura and Audi dealership. Although the dealerships are NOT physically close to each other (5 miles or so apart). I have been an Audi customer since 1977, bought all 27 cars from the same dealership -- and the Acura and Audi dealerships are owned by the same folks.

    So, on top of the disappointment in the dropping of the M45 from the AWD ranks, I would, if at all possible like to maintain an almost 30 year relationship. It is more of a service issue than a price issue. The owner has been there when I needed help and I keep buying cars from him (full-disclosure, he also owns the Cadillac and Hummer dealer too).

    My initial thoughts were Acura, Audi and Cadillac with an asterisk next to the Chrysler 300C (even though this owner does not have a Chryco dealership).

    We test drove all the other cars with an open mind -- and try as we might, we couldn't get any emotion going with any cars other than the Acura (TL, remember) and the Audis. We really hoped to get excited by the Bimmers (and the performance versions RWD were nice -- the AWD versions are sorta like "afterthoughts" in that department, especially when you can drive an UltraSport A4 back to back with a Bimmer "x" and see who is really serious about AWD, IMHO).

    From a price standpoint, my wife works for a Fortune 1000 company that has an employee plan with Volvo -- and we have played with the notion of buying two of them (an S60 type R and an S40 T5 AWD) since the discounts and deals for leases, too, are very tempting.

    So, this, at this point, is "nothing too earth shattering" against the Infinity or a Lexus, to name but two. But, you see, the characterization of the Acuras as Japanese Audis and our long love affairs with Audis, well -- perhaps you can see the "cut of my jib" now and understand that the Infinity would have to overcome the relationship hurdle that the Acura does not have to overcome.

    Besides, ON PAPER, the Acura looks to be every bit the M35's rival (and perhaps "then some!").

    Now, however, therefore, notwithstanding -- it is NOT beyond the pale that my wife and I will eventually at least "test drive" the M35 when the time comes. I have nothing against Infinity, per se, in other words.

    Are you thinking that the M35 will be "more attractive" than the RL?

    Then again, today, I read about some interesting Acruas and Audis that are in the pipeline.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I saw all three of the Japanese midsize sport sedans at NY, and the Infiniti was the only one that yanked my head towards it as much as the GS430. I dont think the RL is bad looking, but I dont think the styling is anywhere NEAR as attractive as the TL's. The M looks classier and more European, and theres NO TRUNK HUMP.

    image
  • saugataksaugatak Posts: 488
    What they don't do particularly well, in my view, is advertise or market well. Many of their prior TV ads for prior year RLs have been lackluster at best, and nearly always unmemorable. Add to this that they maintain an almost paranoid secrecy, holding their cards very close to their chests, leaving little but a black hole -- a void -- a dearth of information. --legendman

    I agree with you and mcincinnati and I'd certainly like to get more info. on the RL and I think the buzz should help as well.

    OTOH, Acura's sales are doing real well so it's hard to criticize their close-vested strategy because it has, after all, worked.

    Whether better marketing would work better is just not answerable b/c Honda doesn't seem to want to do it.

    Sometimes a car doesn't need to be leaps and bounds ahead of the competition. It doesn't need to have the most hp, the best handling, or best of anything. If the car eliminates anything that might annoy the driver and offers up a decent package, it wins accolades. --varmint

    Well said. I like the TL better than the BMW 5 series, despite the occasional torque steer on the TL, b/c i-drive and BMW's interior ergonomics are so annoying.

    A lot of times our choices are driven by what we DISLIKE the least, rather than what we like the most.
  • legendmanlegendman Posts: 362
    That is damn fine looking car, Lexusguy. Nice photo, nice angle. Nice color too. Yes, and no trunk hump! I don't follow Infiniti much -- which model is depicted in the photo you placed on the site?

    When will this model be for sale?

    Do we know how it performs -- will it handle well, or is it sloppy like the Q45? What have the road tests revealed?

    BTW, I agree too, that the TL has better styling than the RL.
  • saugataksaugatak Posts: 488
    M35/45 should handle nicely since it's based on an improved version of Nissan's FM platform, which the G35 is based on.
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