Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Acura RL

15960626465235

Comments

  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    lexusguy,

    Definitely agree with you there about the Germans. Their base 530i Auto is $47,000. And it doesn't even have leather.

    I was mainly referring to Infiniti and to a lesser extent, Lexus.

    The M35 will most certainly have a lower base price than the RL. We'll have to wait and see how close their prices come when you configure them similarly. I'm figuring they'll both be around $48,000, but I guess I'm in the minority on this board with that estimate.
  • cericceric Posts: 1,093
    Fully loaded (all available options included, no accessories)
    2005-RL: 300hp/270ft-lb
             @$42K to $49K (depending on who you believe, well below $50K)
    2004-530i: 225hp/214ft-lb
               @$64K (base=$46K) (no AWD)
    2004-E320: 221hp/232ft-lb
               @$68K (base=$49K) with 4matic
    2005-M35-AWD: 270+hp/270ft-lb
                  @$52K-$53K (base=$41.2K)
    2005-GS300: 245hp/228ft-lb

    The way I see it, the real competitors are M35-AWD for 2005. Between RL and M35-AWD, it boils down to personal taste. I am sure pricing difference would be minimum and hard to compare app-to-app anyway.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    lexusguy,

    Definitely agree with you there about the Germans. Their base 530i Auto is $47,000. And it doesn't even have leather.

    I was mainly referring to Infiniti and to a lesser extent, Lexus.

    The M35 will most certainly have a lower base price than the RL. We'll have to wait and see how close their prices come when you configure them similarly. I'm figuring they'll both be around $48,000, but I guess I'm in the minority on this board with that estimate.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    My $48,000 estimate of the M35 AWD w/ Navi and all the goodies is partly based on the price of the FX35.

    The MSRP of the FX35 AWD w/ Touring and Tech Packages is $43,640. This vehicle has AWD, 280 hp, 300-watt audio system, xenons, Navi, Smart Key, Intelli Cruise, and Rearview monitor.

    I can't imagine a similarly configured M35 AWD costing that much more. Of course, the M will have better interior materials, swiveling lights, active rear suspension, cooling seats, and a few other knick knacks. Hence, my estimate of the $4000 premium to bring it to $48,000.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    It is impossible to avoid new technologies. And sometimes, these technologies are not really new, just a variation (evolution of ATTS from 1996 Honda Prelude to 2005 Acura RL), or being applied to new applications (diesel-electric hybrid power plants in locomotives to cars).

    One of the big reasons companies like Honda and Toyota prefer to take baby steps when launching new technologies is just that, a typical buyer may not be comfortable initially. This also provides for an opportunity to “street test” the technology for an extended period of time.

    The SH-AWD in RL, is a combination of ATTS (now applied to rear wheels, instead of front as it was in Prelude) and an advanced version of VTM-4 (time tested with MDX being in the market for a few years). There have been couple of additions to VTM-4 in the sense that outer wheel can have “more speed” than the inner wheel going around a turn. New technology, yes, but much of it is an evolution of existing version.

    Many are speculating that SH-AWD will be offered in TL in the future. I think so too. But with TSX, I would rather see it get the Acura RDX power train (200 HP from 2.4 liter gasoline engine that it does, assisted with 60 HP electric motors powering the rear wheel for an AWD configuration).
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    But does not having Navi and AWD mean that it's not a luxury car?
    No. But like I said, luxury is not about cutting back. It is about providing more than people need. More luxurious cars will have more excesses.
    If I were getting a car like RL, with all the features and AWD, for $45K, I wouldn’t whine about it a bit.

    My argument is that in the 40k to 50k class, Navi and AWD are not compelling enough luxuries that they MUST be made standard, yet. As an option, most definitely.
    Luxury should not be an option in luxury cars. I can see a point of making much of the “luxury” stuff optional in mainstream cars, or even near luxury cars, but in a luxury car, I expect it to be loaded to the brim, for whatever price class it sits in.

    About 7 or 8 years ago, xenons were only available on cars like the S class or the 7 series. Now, they're standard on many 30k cars.
    True. Acura started with HID standard in 1998 RL and 1999 TL, and offered NAVI as an option back then. These things have now become option (or are standard) in sub-30K cars like Accord and TSX. If mainstream cars have these as “options”, I expect luxury cars to have them standard. In 1998 Acura TLX concept, Acura had “smart cruise control” as a feature. It never made it into 1999 TL though, and that was a disappointment. There are greater expectations in a near/luxury sedans than there are in mainstream offerings.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "If I were getting a car like RL, with all the features and AWD, for $45K, I wouldn’t whine about it a bit."

    Neither would I. We'll just have to wait and see how they price it.

    As far as making everything standard in a luxury car, I still favor Infiniti's "tiered package" approach over Acura's "all or nothing" approach. I guess we just have different preferences regarding this and we'll have to leave it at that. I respect your opinion, however.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Yep. It is all about favored approach. Some favor BMWs for not offering leather even at $47K. :-)

    Based on an early rumor, Acura is expected to target sales of 15-20K units/year for the RL. Having a lower base price could help them push the sales up, but I doubt that is really the point of luxury sedans. TL is out there to carry the bulk of Acura sedan sales (selling at the rate of 60-70K units per year), while TSX and RL would combine for about half of that (15-20K units each for TSX and RL).

    Regarding tiered packaging, I actually prefer the idea in mainstream offerings. Honda does it better than any other. You know what you get with each trim level (in order of pricing)... Accord DX, Accord LX, Accord EX, Accord LXV6, Accord EX-L and Accord EXV6. Throwing tons of "packages" around messes up the things. Toyota and Nissan play that game quite well. I have tried to "option" things in Camry and Altima. It is very frustrating.

    In a luxury sedan though, I expect the options from mainstream to be standard feature.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,076
    Over twenty-five years ago, Dr. Piech ("father of quattro") predicted that "all cars" would "soon" be all wheel drive -- and he gave a list of the reasons.

    By 1984, Piech thought, or so it would seem, that he was still right, but there was scant evidence that BMW, Mercedes or, frankly, any of the "serious" car companies of the world were ever thinking of heading in that direction. Audis were "Volkswagens who knew somebody" -- like Rodney, they "couln't get no respect!"

    Audi stayed the course -- Subaru, somehow became "the all wheel drive car company" -- which of course we long time Piech fans knew was not the literal truth.

    Now, however, with the clarity of history, we see the proliferation of SUV's which hardly anyone ever really takes off road (but they sure do love the performance, safety and traction) and the rapid (recent, very recent) rush to create a new line of cars that are AWD begat from RWD (Chrysler, BMW, Mercedes, Volvo, VW, to name just a few).

    Piech's prediction is, apparently coming true -- I for one, happen to agree and also I would hope that soon all cars will be "available" with AWD.

    The Acura's use of AWD as standard equipment is, currently, the price to be considered a player in the "premium" market.
  • Hello,
    I too am excited about awd and now drive a subaru. haven't heard much about interior space with the new rl? The present model doesn't have enough back seat legroom for me with all the car seats and bending over to get them in etc. I did sit in a new tl. and was not impressed. does anyone know about this new rl and how about rear side airbags and curtains. Im the mommy crowd but we do have quite a say in what gets bought sometimes.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,076
    I do not mean to suggest that VW's (or Volvo's for that matter) AWD was derived from RWD -- this, at this time, is not accurate. That Audi and VW and Skoda are rethinking their implementation of AWD to be RWD biased (40/60) is, however, the apparent next gen quattro and 4Motion design. Acrua, with only a CAR FWD basis for being, has to have either AWD or RWD in order to be allowed to sit at the Premium segment table. It is my understanding, for example, that the next gen US bound Audi A6 will ONLY come in AWD and this, in part, would appear to be the reason for the RL coming standard with AWD. In other words, both the Audi and the Acura would somehow no longer be welcome as a Premium car if they also offered their cars with ONLY FWD -- and neither Audi not Acura, as far as I can tell, have any interest in bringing out an RWD only product.

    The automotive press or "the market" has deemed FWD cars no longer worthy to belong to "the Premium Class."

    Stay tuned for the Cliff notes -- this is getting so complicated. And, if you've been following cars and reading about them as long as I have, you'll perhaps note that this shift back to RWD based vehicles is a 180 from the not too distant past and the much more distant past when cars such as the Cord (FWD) were considered "Premium" or "Technologically Advanced."

    What's old is new again.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    RL will supposedly have a cabin volume of 103 cu. ft which would be 6-7 cu. ft better than Acura TL. Longer wheelbase and longer car (by 5 inches over TL) should contribute towards additional legroom.

    RL should have everything standard that is in TL, and then some. Which would mean, it will have all the airbags, stability control (VSA), ABS w/EBD etc. standard.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    I don't believe that making the SH-AWD system standard had anything to do with a goal of providing traditional "AWD benefits". It's just a way of dismissing the need for RWD. If they offered a FWD-only RL, there would be a good deal of press regarding Honda's alleged fixation with FWD.

    The primary benefit to SH-AWD is that it allows 70% of the engine's torque to flow to the outside rear wheel. The fact that 30% remains up front is secondary.
  • Hello,
    I too am excited about awd and now drive a subaru. haven't heard much about interior space with the new rl? The present model doesn't have enough back seat legroom for me with all the car seats and bending over to get them in etc. I did sit in a new tl. and was not impressed. does anyone know about this new rl and how about rear side airbags and curtains. Im the mommy crowd but we do have quite a say in what gets bought sometimes.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Another point to note on RL’s AWD system is that it was designed for performance, not just to offer “AWD” option. Otherwise Acura could have simply used the VTM-4 as it is in MDX (which can also send up to 70% of the torque to the rear wheels, and is a pro-active system (opening the throttle engages the AWD, with or without slippage).

    Acura added ATTS to continuously vary torque split between inner and outer wheels during cornering. In addition, the outer wheel can “speed up” to 105% of the speed at which the inner wheel is turning. This makes me wonder if the passive rear wheel steering layout using Watt-link double wishbone rear suspension would be necessary (something Honda has used for years in Accord, TL, CL and now TSX).
  • If the RL drove as smooth, soft, road-isolated, and quiet as the LS430, I would buy it even if it were a 4-Cylinder with 150HP and goes from 0-60 in 8 seconds.

    I think the reason the RL did not compete well with the Lexus LS is because it was significantly louder and less cushioned. It had nothing to do with a V6 vs. V8 engine. I don't think people who like a pure luxury cruiser care about how fast the vehicle goes in 0-60. A pure luxury cruiser has one purpose: to make your driving as quiet, comfy, and relaxing as possible.

    I think a car company needs to have different lines of cars.
    1) Luxury cruiser sedan
    2) Sport sedan
    3) Convertible
    4) Large SUV
    5) Compact SUV

    I like the idea of Honda/Acura not competing on increasing prices. By all means, keep the prices down. But could you also offer more variety?

    You have a TSX---sporty
    You have a TL-Sporty
    You have CL-sporty
    You have a RSX--sporty
    You have a MDX-sporty SUV
    You have an NSX-extremely sporty

    And now you have an RL-sporty too?

    C'mon, man. What about the pure luxury cruiser people? We have to buy a Lexus?

    I guess so.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I associate Honda with sport (not cushy). People loved the Legend because of that. They felt bad when Legend became the RL with a cushy ride in 1996, complained, Acura listened and tried stop-gap measures to address it until now.

    There can be different baselines to define sporty. IMO,
    TSX is the sportiest of the Acura sedans.
    TL is essentially a touring luxury (“TL”), somewhat sporty, but comfort gets almost as much priority
    RL will be less sporty than TSX and TL, and more comfort oriented.

    This is progression. And this also bodes well with how a typical buyer grows up. Young drivers tend to prefer tight and controlled chassis, and pampering is relatively less important. As they grow older, the bias may tend to move towards pampering, and away from sport (unless they continue to be… “young at heart” IMO).

    Having performance oriented SH-AWD does not mean RL is going to be a sport sedan. It is still going to be a luxury cruiser that will negotiate turns with finesse.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,076
    I agree -- AWD is, probably, more for IMAGE, marketing or "current dues" as the market apparently falls out of love with FWD.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,076
    . . .the fact that the new Acura RL will offer AWD moves it onto the "will consider" category. And, although I am certain to be castigated for this, I would have put an FWD Acura on my list long before I ever would even consider putting an RWD (only) version on my list.

    I understand the arguments for RWD -- I have had all three kinds AWD, FWD and RWD. For my needs and wants, RWD offers mainly a fair weather friend's face to me.

    Exciting indeed that Acura, Cadillac and Chrysler by this time next year (sooner, actually) will join: Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Subraru, Volvo, VW, Jaguar and several others in bringing some very interesting AWD product to their non-SUV offerings.
  • steveaccordsteveaccord Posts: 108
    I do not entirely agree with the IMAGE justification for AWD. I think the argument of diligently directing the ever increasing power of the new powertrain commands evolving from FWD to AWD. In fact, even my driving on a lowly Accord EX-L shows me a torque-steer problem on tigh turns (especially when moving from stops and intersection) and I am dealing only with 170HP! I admit part of it is my driving style, after 20 years in the US I still drive as I was in Italy!!!

    So after such disclosure on my part no one is going to be surprised if I also dissent with the arguments made in favor of luxury car=narcotic ride! Just to clarify my point I would add that both BMW and MB have clearly recognized 'Luxury offerings' that happen to be very sporty as well. The confusion may rise from the Japanese brands such Lexus that have otherwise offered 'join the narcolepsy party' models, but personally I'll steer clear from those at least until my granchild retirement party! Meantime let me enjoy 'driving around' with a nice sporty luxury sedan, possibly an Acura!
  • cericceric Posts: 1,093
    "C'mon, man. What about the pure luxury cruiser people? We have to buy a Lexus?"

    Luxury cruiser people should stay with Lexus and drive on the outer lanes. Leave inner lanes for sporty sedans. Just kidding.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I'm very excited about all these AWD sedans too. Here in PA, my XKR is only good about 8 months out of the year, and even my daily driver LS can get stuck, and I really dont want a FWD car. The new TL is very impressive for having FWD, but just about all other FWD cars arent. Also, if companies like Audi start designing their cars with AWD in mind, rather than FWD with an AWD option, the weight balance will improve significantly. Even the RS6 suffers from like a 60\40 front bias weight, which means front end plow and understeer, because its ultimately a FWD car. Cars like the G35x though Im pretty sure can maintain a solid almost even balance.
  • teeboteebo Posts: 4
    "The only thing we didn’t like about the RL was the fact that even though the specs say it’s bigger inside than the last RL and current TL, it feels smaller inside the cabin than the others, probably due to the sloped roofline. The car also looks much smaller on the outside…it almost looks 3-series size when it used to look 5-series size. It should be interesting to see how well it sells when it hits showrooms in November."

    You couldn't tell at the auto show just how big it was inside. Still looked good enough for me to deposit $500, although if it is this small it would be a disappointment. The exterior dimensions put it about equal to an A6 and slightly larger than the E class and 5 series.
  • davek4davek4 Posts: 6
    In response to some earlier posts today:

    I have found that Infiniti.com includes relatively specific pricing estimates of the new M45 trim levels and option packages. You can configure your ideal M45 along with options and get a rather detailed preliminary pricing report. Adding options comparable to the 2005 RL seem to push the M45 AWD above $50k.
  • cericceric Posts: 1,093
    teebo, it seems like only you and I have put down $500 deposit on the new RL around here. I was first at my local dealer. No obligation, fully refundable here in California by law.

    From the spec, the interior of RL should be larger than older 5-series. It has about 98 cubic ft inside. RL has more than 100 I believe. Besides, RL's wheelbase is longer than 5-series (108" compared with 110"). I just wish the new RL can be as close to 50/50 weight balanced as my 540iA (52/48). Adding AWD, RL would be awesome in any driving conditions. Personally, I care more about driving dynamics than raw horse power.
  • pg48477pg48477 Posts: 309
    I don't see anything wrong with 60/40 balance, and RS6 is a grate example, it' did outhandle M5, and don't forget M5 has 6Mt and RS6 comes only with AT. You can make the same argument about S4 and M3, S4 also outhandled M3.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Remember that at least here in the US, the RS6 is brand new, and the M5 dates back to 1997. The E55 will beat an RS6, and the M. The next 500hp M should put the trophy back in BMW's corner. A 60/40 balance is not ideal. You just cant achieve razor sharp handling with that much weight in the front.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Razor sharp handling can be achieved in cars that have 60/40, 50/50 or 40/60 (mid/rear engine) weight split. It is about chassis tuning. That said, cars like RL aren’t meant to be “razor sharp” handlers, given the compromises that must be made to achieve it. RL will likely have a typical soft to firm chassis set up, for good handling, without giving up much in terms of ride. With AWD set up (and ATTS mounted in the rear), the weight distribution should be around 55-45.
  • "Luxury cruiser people should stay with Lexus and drive on the outer lanes. Leave inner lanes for sporty sedans. Just kidding."

    No, you are right.

    But I do find myself in my LS400 on the left lane going 70mph in a 60mph zone everyday. However, I do realize that 10mph above limit doesn't necessarily qualify for "speeding".

    But you are right about sticking to Lexus for pure luxury cruiser.
    However, as lexusguy will probably agree with, the new LS430 goes from 0-60 in 5.9 seconds, which is probably A LOT faster than any Acura, except the NSX!

    And I think any such comments about how the RL is still a luxury cruiser is a total joke by my standards. The RL is way too loud and harsh-riding compared to the LS430. I mean it's pretty good compared to a $15K Accord, but it's nothing compared to a Lexus in terms of pure luxury cushy cruising.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,076
    . . .Acura and Audi, to name but two -- will and have created AWD cars essentially from FWD cars, of this I assume we can all agree.

    It is true that the RS6, to name but one, is "nose heavy" -- but this is NOT necessarily the reason to claim that a car is FWD biased. After spending my weekend test driving AWD cars, you can bet that the BMW and Mercedes dealers (when they see us drive up in an Audi) point out that a "true" AWD car will always be torque biased to the rear.

    Both of these fine German brands offer that their cars are 38% FWD and 62% RWD and that for Audi AWD was an afterthought. Huh?!? I am certain the "father of quattro" would have a word or two about this declaration.

    Generally, the reason (so they claim) for their AWD "superiority" is that they were RWD first and AWD built upon this.

    I wonder if the Acura RL will claim AWD and leave it at that or if it will attempt to "prove" that it is NOT a poser by touting an RWD bias even if it is 45% 55%?

    The RS6 is an awesome car -- the fact that it is nose heavy, IMHO, more than its FWD/RWD bias contributes to its tendancy to understeer. In an ideal world, I would conclude, the ideal would be 50 - 50 weight bias and perhaps a slight RWD bias, or, as is used in the Audi, a 50 50 drive bias with a Torsen "brain." The electronics the BMW and Merc guys explained, to make the AWD system work seem fine, but also seem to be a not needed complication, especially when one understands how Torsen works. The BMW guy was quick to add "yea but, yea but, Torsen is noisy and not seamless in operation."

    The electronics required to shift power on the BMW are probably hunky dunky -- but in no way is the above claim accurate from behind the wheel of a Torsen equipped car.

    What system is the Acura using and, what is its F/R weight bias and its F/R power split?
Sign In or Register to comment.