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Acura RL

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Comments

  • pg48477pg48477 Posts: 309
    I don't think electric engine needs a lot of maintenance and Honda never had electrical problems, so for me reliability is not an issue. You right in firs few years most mechanics wont have an idea about this set up, but you will have your warranty and than mechanics should catch up. As for stop and go driving, that what now days hibrits need, the are being charged by collecting energy from braces, so more you brake more energy for electric motor.
  • pg48477pg48477 Posts: 309
    How you figure RWD based platform will cost more than FWD based platform? Don't forget both vehicles have AWD and both platforms need to be re-engeneered, plus both vehicles have unibody and so RWD based AWD platform will be very similar if not the same as FWD based AWD platform.

    I have to agree with robertsmx, luxury car have to come loaded. The only reason MB and BMW have so many options, is because the are being sold in Europe striped down (you can get 3 series or E-class with less options that Accord DX, if it's even possible)
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Of course, I don't know exactly the costs involved here. But usually, a RWD setup costs more to make than a FWD setup. If you add AWD to these setups, the RWD based AWD will cost more than a FWD based AWD (in the aggregate, not just the cost of adding the AWD, which should be the same.) Of course, these are different companies and different technologies anyway, so it's all conjecture.

    To clarify my point about loaded cars:

    Vehicle 1:

    Model w/ Navi and AWD, $48,000.

    Vehicle 2:

    Model w/ Navi and AWD, $48,000.

    Model w/out Navi and AWD, $44,000.

    I prefer Vehicle 2's approach.
  • pg48477pg48477 Posts: 309
    Navi is usually cost from $1800 to $2000. Acura price their vehicles below Infiniti, RL might be an exception, but I don't think so. If you take TL and G35 for example, TL with navigation will cost about that same as G35 without navigation. Let say you also right about cost of FWD(AWD) platform vs. RWD(AWD) platform. So I would take vehicle one with navigation and AWD for 45K over vehicle two with AWD but without navigation for 46K.

    As far as I know unibody AWD platform is about the same if build from RWD or FWD, does any body know the difference?
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    A similarly configured G35 is about $1000 more than a TL in terms of MSRP. In the real world, you'd have to pay about $3000 more for a TL w/ Navi than a G35 w/out Navi.

    "So I would take vehicle one with navigation and AWD for 45K over vehicle two with AWD but without navigation for 46K."

    Hell, so would I. All these assumptions are dependent on pricing.

    I wish the RL would come out at $45,000. That'd really put pricing pressure on the M and the GS, which are being released a few months later.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Is the RL supposed to have Intelli Cruise and Rearview monitor?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    The thing is, what might be luxury to you is useless to others. I'd much rather have Navi and AWD as options, rather than essentially be forced to pay for them.

    Luxury is a well defined term. It is not an opinion. You'd be correct if you said that luxury to one person may not be enough for another. "Useless" is not the appropriate term, because luxury is about... excesses, a condition of abundance, something adding to pleasure or comfort but not absolutely necessary... (definitions from Websters).

    If you take away the excesses, the car would be less luxurious. That is not the purpose of a car like RL. For the economy oriented, there is the TL, and going further, there is the TSX. RL has to be a step up above its lesser siblings.

    Honda offers Adaptive Cruise Control in Japanese Accord and Honda Inspire, so it is possible it might be offered in the RL. Rear view monitor was also offered in one of the Hondas (Avancier) in the past (also in Japan)but it never made it to the American market. Whether RL changes it, we shall see. It would be nice to see Acura throw in stuff like that besides the other expected standard features like adaptive headlamps and smart key.
  • saugataksaugatak Posts: 488
    Thanks for the thoughtful response to my posts.

    I'm sure that these hybrid electric engines, when they do come out, will work very well. However, I'm also sure that any complicated new technology such as this will not work perfectly. Having experienced i-drive 1.0 with the BMW 745 when it first came out, I will not be the adopter of any new auto technology.

    In the end, I just don't know enough about these electric engines to make a judgment one way or another. Until it comes out and has to perform in real world conditions, I'll reserve my judgment.

    For myself, I just hope the U.S. makes clean diesel and all the car mfr. gradually transfer over to diesel engines. Diesel fuel has a lot more power than regular so there is a lot more torque and power. Diesel I4 or V4 performs like a 6 and diesel 6 performs like an 8, plus the gas mileage is insanely good. Also, diesel is tested and proven technology.

    I think a combo of diesel and DOD would be a really excellent combination of power and fuel efficiency. If the electric motors also work, that would be really great. Imagine a car with an I4, electric motor and diesel able to generate the HP and torque of a standard v8. I hope it comes soon.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "You'd be correct if you said that luxury to one person may not be enough for another. "Useless" is not the appropriate term, because luxury is about... excesses, a condition of abundance, something adding to pleasure or comfort but not absolutely necessary"

    Good point. "useless" may not have been the choicest word.

    "Luxury should not be an option in luxury cars."

    Sure. But does not having Navi and AWD mean that it's not a luxury car?

    My argument is that in the 40k to 50k class, Navi and AWD are not compelling enough luxuries that they MUST be made standard, yet. As an option, most definitely.

    The trend may be that all the cars in this class will have them standard at some point in the near future.

    About 7 or 8 years ago, xenons were only available on cars like the S class or the 7 series. Now, they're standard on many 30k cars.

    Navi may well be that way soon. AWD might take longer.

    Perhaps the RL is leading the way in this regard.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    You're forgetting the Acura advantage, they've made quite a name for themselves having a 1 line option sheet. The Germans all have several multi-thousand option packages, so does Lexus and Infiniti. Acura is pretty much the only one that says "we throw everything in but the kitchen sink, for one low price!". Would it be better if a CD player wasnt even standard as with the old S430s? Personally, If I'm spending $40K+, I should be getting a luxury car, not getting nickel and dimed on fancy packages. An optioned out E500 4matic wagon can cost $75K. Its a wagon. a $75 grand wagon. Is that really the good way to do things?
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    lexusguy,

    Definitely agree with you there about the Germans. Their base 530i Auto is $47,000. And it doesn't even have leather.

    I was mainly referring to Infiniti and to a lesser extent, Lexus.

    The M35 will most certainly have a lower base price than the RL. We'll have to wait and see how close their prices come when you configure them similarly. I'm figuring they'll both be around $48,000, but I guess I'm in the minority on this board with that estimate.
  • cericceric Posts: 1,093
    Fully loaded (all available options included, no accessories)
    2005-RL: 300hp/270ft-lb
             @$42K to $49K (depending on who you believe, well below $50K)
    2004-530i: 225hp/214ft-lb
               @$64K (base=$46K) (no AWD)
    2004-E320: 221hp/232ft-lb
               @$68K (base=$49K) with 4matic
    2005-M35-AWD: 270+hp/270ft-lb
                  @$52K-$53K (base=$41.2K)
    2005-GS300: 245hp/228ft-lb

    The way I see it, the real competitors are M35-AWD for 2005. Between RL and M35-AWD, it boils down to personal taste. I am sure pricing difference would be minimum and hard to compare app-to-app anyway.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    lexusguy,

    Definitely agree with you there about the Germans. Their base 530i Auto is $47,000. And it doesn't even have leather.

    I was mainly referring to Infiniti and to a lesser extent, Lexus.

    The M35 will most certainly have a lower base price than the RL. We'll have to wait and see how close their prices come when you configure them similarly. I'm figuring they'll both be around $48,000, but I guess I'm in the minority on this board with that estimate.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    My $48,000 estimate of the M35 AWD w/ Navi and all the goodies is partly based on the price of the FX35.

    The MSRP of the FX35 AWD w/ Touring and Tech Packages is $43,640. This vehicle has AWD, 280 hp, 300-watt audio system, xenons, Navi, Smart Key, Intelli Cruise, and Rearview monitor.

    I can't imagine a similarly configured M35 AWD costing that much more. Of course, the M will have better interior materials, swiveling lights, active rear suspension, cooling seats, and a few other knick knacks. Hence, my estimate of the $4000 premium to bring it to $48,000.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    It is impossible to avoid new technologies. And sometimes, these technologies are not really new, just a variation (evolution of ATTS from 1996 Honda Prelude to 2005 Acura RL), or being applied to new applications (diesel-electric hybrid power plants in locomotives to cars).

    One of the big reasons companies like Honda and Toyota prefer to take baby steps when launching new technologies is just that, a typical buyer may not be comfortable initially. This also provides for an opportunity to “street test” the technology for an extended period of time.

    The SH-AWD in RL, is a combination of ATTS (now applied to rear wheels, instead of front as it was in Prelude) and an advanced version of VTM-4 (time tested with MDX being in the market for a few years). There have been couple of additions to VTM-4 in the sense that outer wheel can have “more speed” than the inner wheel going around a turn. New technology, yes, but much of it is an evolution of existing version.

    Many are speculating that SH-AWD will be offered in TL in the future. I think so too. But with TSX, I would rather see it get the Acura RDX power train (200 HP from 2.4 liter gasoline engine that it does, assisted with 60 HP electric motors powering the rear wheel for an AWD configuration).
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    But does not having Navi and AWD mean that it's not a luxury car?
    No. But like I said, luxury is not about cutting back. It is about providing more than people need. More luxurious cars will have more excesses.
    If I were getting a car like RL, with all the features and AWD, for $45K, I wouldn’t whine about it a bit.

    My argument is that in the 40k to 50k class, Navi and AWD are not compelling enough luxuries that they MUST be made standard, yet. As an option, most definitely.
    Luxury should not be an option in luxury cars. I can see a point of making much of the “luxury” stuff optional in mainstream cars, or even near luxury cars, but in a luxury car, I expect it to be loaded to the brim, for whatever price class it sits in.

    About 7 or 8 years ago, xenons were only available on cars like the S class or the 7 series. Now, they're standard on many 30k cars.
    True. Acura started with HID standard in 1998 RL and 1999 TL, and offered NAVI as an option back then. These things have now become option (or are standard) in sub-30K cars like Accord and TSX. If mainstream cars have these as “options”, I expect luxury cars to have them standard. In 1998 Acura TLX concept, Acura had “smart cruise control” as a feature. It never made it into 1999 TL though, and that was a disappointment. There are greater expectations in a near/luxury sedans than there are in mainstream offerings.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "If I were getting a car like RL, with all the features and AWD, for $45K, I wouldn’t whine about it a bit."

    Neither would I. We'll just have to wait and see how they price it.

    As far as making everything standard in a luxury car, I still favor Infiniti's "tiered package" approach over Acura's "all or nothing" approach. I guess we just have different preferences regarding this and we'll have to leave it at that. I respect your opinion, however.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Yep. It is all about favored approach. Some favor BMWs for not offering leather even at $47K. :-)

    Based on an early rumor, Acura is expected to target sales of 15-20K units/year for the RL. Having a lower base price could help them push the sales up, but I doubt that is really the point of luxury sedans. TL is out there to carry the bulk of Acura sedan sales (selling at the rate of 60-70K units per year), while TSX and RL would combine for about half of that (15-20K units each for TSX and RL).

    Regarding tiered packaging, I actually prefer the idea in mainstream offerings. Honda does it better than any other. You know what you get with each trim level (in order of pricing)... Accord DX, Accord LX, Accord EX, Accord LXV6, Accord EX-L and Accord EXV6. Throwing tons of "packages" around messes up the things. Toyota and Nissan play that game quite well. I have tried to "option" things in Camry and Altima. It is very frustrating.

    In a luxury sedan though, I expect the options from mainstream to be standard feature.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,069
    Over twenty-five years ago, Dr. Piech ("father of quattro") predicted that "all cars" would "soon" be all wheel drive -- and he gave a list of the reasons.

    By 1984, Piech thought, or so it would seem, that he was still right, but there was scant evidence that BMW, Mercedes or, frankly, any of the "serious" car companies of the world were ever thinking of heading in that direction. Audis were "Volkswagens who knew somebody" -- like Rodney, they "couln't get no respect!"

    Audi stayed the course -- Subaru, somehow became "the all wheel drive car company" -- which of course we long time Piech fans knew was not the literal truth.

    Now, however, with the clarity of history, we see the proliferation of SUV's which hardly anyone ever really takes off road (but they sure do love the performance, safety and traction) and the rapid (recent, very recent) rush to create a new line of cars that are AWD begat from RWD (Chrysler, BMW, Mercedes, Volvo, VW, to name just a few).

    Piech's prediction is, apparently coming true -- I for one, happen to agree and also I would hope that soon all cars will be "available" with AWD.

    The Acura's use of AWD as standard equipment is, currently, the price to be considered a player in the "premium" market.
  • Hello,
    I too am excited about awd and now drive a subaru. haven't heard much about interior space with the new rl? The present model doesn't have enough back seat legroom for me with all the car seats and bending over to get them in etc. I did sit in a new tl. and was not impressed. does anyone know about this new rl and how about rear side airbags and curtains. Im the mommy crowd but we do have quite a say in what gets bought sometimes.
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