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Lexus ES 300/ES 330

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Comments

  • hylynerhylyner Posts: 216
    Sorry Wwest, but my post was cut off when they updated the server.
    Here are some other examples I started out to show you:
    "the TSB tells me it is across the board"
    "they all do it and it's for all models with that same tranny"
    There are a number of the same types of statements; different words but always the same message. Curiously, it was alway the same two or three posters who posted those remarks.
    History shows us they were wrong.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Okay, I stand corrected....

    Currently, no one is stating........that the problem is widespread.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    let's don't drag the hesitation discussion over here ... please.
  • hylynerhylyner Posts: 216
    Thanks for the heads up. For the record, like many others, I'm also tired of hearing about it. That's why I jumped in to defuse it. It seems there's always someone who wants to rekindle the controversy, but it's time to let it go.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    The hesitation thread was shut down to new entries because a few posters on both sides of the "fence" couldn't keep things on a non-personal level.

    So again, I ask those that have questions about the engine/throttle hesitation problems or any and all reponders, do NOT repond in kind to any personal attacks or baiting by anyone.

    I suspect that if we "behave" ourselves and conduct the discussions in a polite and level-headed way Edmunds will be kind enough to allow the discussion to continue unabated.

    Thanks to all....
  • mldj98mldj98 Posts: 378
    I would like to thank everyone who responded to my request for input on the ES330....it's alway nice to hear some of the facts from people who actually own one as opposed to a sales person....I test drove the Black Diamond Edition twice in the last couple of days and had the following conclusion....With the ride, and the luxury appointments it was a real nice car.....almost pulled the trigger.....but sat back and said to myself that the new 07 redesigned ES350 should be coming out sometime in the spring....and with this design comes a big increase in hp and the Lexus's new design thinking as they did in their new IS350....from what I understand all models will be redesigned with this new thinking in mind....
    So to sum it up, given the sweet ride, and the luxury of the ES330 we figured that the new ES350 can improve on an already outstanding vehicle....Again, thanks to all who responded as it was much appreciated! Now I know I shouldn't ask this but, does anyone know the release date of the ES350? Thanks
  • scoti1scoti1 Posts: 676
    mldj98,

    You may find this forum of interest:
    "Transmission problems with Lexus ES-300 ?"
  • Calling all the ES330 owners...

    There are cars I like and dislike. Our 2005 ES330 to me is indifferent. However, my wife loves it. So we bought one (Happy wife = happy life).

    I have seen ES330 frequently compared to Camry. So I will not do that comparison.

    My comparisons will be to that car that I now drive the 2002 Maxima GLE (wife's hand me down)which we bought it new for $24K.

    Here's my break down of 10 things I noticed.

    MAXIMA:
    1. Gas milage, w/ premium fuel in mix local/highway driving. Maxima 26.7 mpg (ES330 22.5 mpg)
    2. Power/Accel
    3. Handling
    4. Maintenance Cost
    5. Car price

    Lexus ES330

    1. Comfort
    2. Safety Features
    3. Exterior metal(Maxima thinner metal and chips easily)
    4. Interior Layout/Noise
    5. Dealer service (However, great service tech. at a Nissan dealer for our Maxima)

    At this point I'm not a big Drive By Wire Throttle fan. As soon as I hit the gas, I want it to go. As I compared, Maxima with more powerful and better acceleration engine is more fuel efficient. I don't understand how or why the mighty Toyota/Lexus engine gets out performed by Nissan's old engine.

    I will say ES330 is worth more than Maxima maybe $2K more but $6K more?

    Is there something I have left out?

    Thanks.
  • scoti1scoti1 Posts: 676
    At this point I'm not a big Drive By Wire Throttle fan. As soon as I hit the gas, I want it to go.

    I don't think this is necessarily a DBW issue because not all cars with DBW have this problem. But yeah, I agree, it is a reasonable expectation from a car. Were you aware that Toyota has issued a TSB to help address this "hesitation" problem? If it is not bothering your wife (who I assume drives the car) you may not want to bother with it, but some people have noticed an improvement after having the TSB work performed.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    My 2001 Porsche 996 C4 is DBW and it GOES when I depress the gas pedal!

    That is provided I have selected the correct gear so as not to "lug" the engine and have released the clutch pedal.

    That latter part is actually the fly in the ointment with the Toyota and Lexus 5-speed transaxles. The engine/transaxle ECU will not allow the engine to develop torque above idle via "side-tracking" the DBW signals until the "proper" transaxle gear is selected and all of the clutches appropriate to that gear selection have fully and firmly seated.

    This whole dilema is the result of Toyota and Lexus wanting, working too hard, and over-optimizing engine/transaxle operations toward improved fuel economy. There may also be a bit of a safety issue involved in that it is really not a bad idea to remove as much engine compression braking from the front drive wheels via upshifting the transaxle as you slow to a final stop just in case the roadbed is super slippery.

    That's why you get a very QUICK upshift during any throttle closed coastdown situation. But now amidst that upshift sequence if you happen to depress the "GO" button things can go quickly awry. The DBW side-tracking will not allow the engine to respond to your inputs and additionally the ECU has very likely selected a downshift gear more in favor of fuel economy rather than supplying more RAW torque for acceleration.

    But now you sense the engine's non-response and depress the gas pedal just a wee bit farther. Meantime the transaxle has completed the "coastdown" upshift and started the initially selected downshift. Now it decides it needs to be in an even lower gear ratio cognizant with the new gas pedal position and delays the onset of engine torque development even more.

    Enough said...??
  • hylynerhylyner Posts: 216
    So, we're comparing a manual transmission 2001 Porsche C4 (+ or - $80K), to an automatic DBW Lexus 330 (+ or - $34K). Sorry to rain on that parade Wwest, but apples and oranges don't fall from the same tree, if you get my drift.
    That said, your hypothesis might pass the thesis "weight test" in DBW101, but IMHO it doesn't quite make the grade in practical terms. On technical merit, it doesn't resonate; on artistic impression, it looks nice, but looks ain't where it's at!
    An "F", unfortunately, on overall grade. Good try tho'.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    No, what I, "we're", comparing is my personal ability to quickly select the correct gear to downshift into (or remain "in" with the clutch released) with virtually no thought toward improving fuel economy or loss of directional control VERSUS the Toyota engine/transaxle ECU giving high priority to improving fuel economy and/or preventing loss of control.

    And yes, the ECU does not have the advantage of my eyesight and forethought derived therefrom. But that's also exactly why it shouldn't so quickly "default" into upshifting since it hasn't a single clue as to what I might do next.

    How long do you suppose it would take to delay unshifting during throttle closed coastdown circumstances to make 90% of these complaints disappear. And just how much fuel would be "wasted" if the delay were to be 2 or three seconds?
  • scoti1scoti1 Posts: 676
    Also, the Porsche DBW vs Toyota DBW is not what makes the +/- $50k difference in the two cars.
  • hylynerhylyner Posts: 216
    Wwest and Scoti:
    A good effort, but neither of you two are going to raise the graded "F" by hedging after the fact on Wwest's original thesis. You could be granted one small concession though, which might have helped get a better mark had it been included in the original piece. You are correct in your follow up explanation Wwest, a "human" making a decision under a wide variety of changing conditions will better the capability of an EPROM chip every time. Artificial intelligence is here to a degree, but still a long way from the human brain. Those nasty, overworked, and delinquent Toyota engineers you often criticize for doing such a bad job are actually not so bad after all. You also said in your follow up Wwest--the way DBW systems work is probably a better way to manage the transmission/engine relationship from both a control, safety, and fuel economy standpoint. DBW system management is intended for "average" driving, not the conditions one would expect a high performance sports car (Porsche C4?) to deliver--with "Human" interface in shifting decisions.
    If you want a car that "goes when you step on it", then buy one. Conversely, if you want what our buying public demands in our marketplace--a "No Brainer Slushbucket"--then I think you will like the current DBW technology. But do NOT expect DBW "Slushbuckets" to perform like a Porsche C4!! Do NOT expect a DBW equipped auto to do everything you ask of it.

    For your info Scoti. Big mistake!! Wwest's Porsche doesn't have DBW--(unless he's wired directly to the accellerator, tranny , and clutch!) A close coupled manual transmission is a whole 'nuther animal.
  • hylynerhylyner Posts: 216
    One further comment re West's C4. I may have unintentionally misled you Scoti when I stated that Porsche doesn't have DBW. It's a manual transmission with ETC (electronic throttle control), if I'm not mistaken, right Wwest? Somewhat different than the Lexus DBW system you two are comparing it to. Quite a bit different as a matter of fact.
  • andy82471andy82471 Posts: 120
    DBW has softwares that can be programmed to be responsive to a different degree depending on the car. Obviously, I would imagine Porsche would be more concerned with accleration than fuel economy or emisson ratings than Lexus as it should. However, after driving my father's 2003 ES300 I can say that the car is more than adequate for most folks and only the most demanding and lead footed driver will want more. My father is very happy with his purchase and very soon I will get to own the car as he is considering buying the upcoming ES350. :)
  • hylynerhylyner Posts: 216
    That's absolutely correct. Needless to say, no amount of programming or ECU complexity can provide every vehicle with every desired level of responsiveness for every driving condition experienced by every driver.
    I am very pleased to hear your Dad's experience is positive; I'm sure this is far more the rule than exception for these automobiles.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Yes, you're right, I should have been saying E-throttle in both cases instead of DBW. My Porsche has only a "firmware" connection between the footfeed and the throttle buttefly valve, exactly the same, basically, as the ES330.

    Maybe we should have been saying "partial" DBW.

    Makes me wish, for purposes of this discussion only, I had bought a little Mazda 4-banger with e-throttle and automatic transmission (NOT transaxle)that I could have used as an example. I have no doubt that I could have used the same example with the Maxda, when I depress the gas pedal it GOES!

    Going all the way back to a new 56 Ford automatic, I remember being told that if I wished it to upshift "early" all I had to do was release the gas pedal slightly. And I agree that it worked.

    So in a sense this "upshifting" effect has been with us for more than 50 years now. The major difference is that with the Ford when I subsequently re-applied pedal pressure cognizant with the need to gain speed the transmission reacted instantly as did the engine. Same as my 2001 RX300.

    But now for some reason Toyota has discovered that they need to "protect the drive train" by delaying the onset of engine torque during these downshifts.

    Why, what changed..??
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    If/when I buy a car, any car, with a manual transmission it is clearly understood by both parties of the deal that there is NO warranty against any level of clutch wear, early, premature, or late.

    On the other hand Toyota must accept responsibility, and pay costs, for any transaxle internal clutch failure during the drive train warranty period.
  • andy82471andy82471 Posts: 120
    Yes. I can't wait till the new ES comes out so I can get my dad's 03 ES. It is loaded with every bells and whistle. While at 24 I am not a typical ES owner I think the car will suite me just fine. My dad is also thinking about checking out the 07 Avalon. Did you cross shop the ES with the Avalon?
  • hylynerhylyner Posts: 216
    Wish I had, but y'know what? There's a Toyota dealer in our area but no Lexus dealer. I didn't want to have to drive many miles for any service requirements.The Av's just fine tho'--a Lexus at a lower price!
  • hylynerhylyner Posts: 216
    Why, what changed..??
    I really cannot answer that question Wwest. I don't think anyone can--leastwise those of us discussing it. Given none of us (Scoti included) has experienced this phenomenon, then none of us is able to speak authoritatively about it one way or the other. We can only
    continue to speculate on If, How, What, Why, or to What Extent this phenomenon occurs. Frankly, I'd rather not discuss it further.
  • scoti1scoti1 Posts: 676
    Given none of us (Scoti included) has experienced this phenomenon, then none of us is able to speak authoritatively about it one way or the other.

    Sorry, I know you said you do not want to discuss this issue further, so I do not expect a reply from you, but I just wanted to let you know for the record that I have never stated that I have not experienced this phenomenon. I kindly request that you stop making this statement, since you and others have repeated it in what I perceive as an attempt to discredit my participation in Edmunds forums. So to address this statement, I will tell you that indeed, I do not own a vehicle that has this problem. My Sequoia seems to go just fine when I press the "go-pedal". But I have experienced it as a passenger. I will continue to discuss this problem when I have something I would like to add (and as long as it is within the forum participation guidelines). :)
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    I notice that NWA is taking me through Minneapolis, against my better wishes/judgement, to and from Daytona, I'll check and see just how much time I will be there....
  • motownusamotownusa Posts: 836
    I thought the host specifically said not to discuss the hesitation issue on this forum. It looks like a handful of people intend to hijack this forum to spread their personal anti-Toyota/Lexus agenda.
  • hylynerhylyner Posts: 216
    Apologies for the misunderstanding on my part. I've asked the Host to remove the erronious post which offended you.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Does anyone want to talk about the ES 330??
  • scoti1scoti1 Posts: 676
    Mr. Shiftright just opened a new forum:

    "Toyota/Lexus transaxle shift delay"
  • Hello all,

    I bought an ES330 yesterday (my first new car :) ) and wanted to know if anyone could recommend a good car cover. I will be parking in my driveway which is often home to many cats so am looking for something to protect against scratches as well as the elements. Any recommendations?

    Thanks in advance
This discussion has been closed.