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Lexus ES 300/ES 330

L8_ApexL8_Apex Posts: 187
edited July 31 in Lexus
Welcome to the continuation of the Lexus ES 300 -
II
topic. Those of you joining us from that topic
are welcome to continue your discussion.

If you're new to this topic, you may want to
follow the above link for additional archived
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L8_Apex
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Comments

  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    VSC (Vehicle Skid Control) detects & corrects incipient skid situations. In other words, it senses when you're steering in 1 direction but the car is heading in another direction. It then modulates the throttle & applies the brakes to restore control of the car.

    We ordered it on our '99 ES300. We keep our cars for a long time (8-10 years or more), & we figured that if VSC saved our bacon just once, it would be worth the $440 (invoice price) that we paid for it. It kicked in once last winter while we were climbing an icy hill. Can't say that it prevented an accident, but I found it reassuring. Incidentally, you can shut it off. (We never do.)

    Re AVS: we decided not to get it after hearing from a friend that if we did, we'd play with it for a month & then leave it in the "normal" setting.
  • s852s852 Posts: 1,051
    Someone posted asking about the 2002 ES300, but I thought there would be no redesign until the 2003 model year.

    Anyway. I'd like to see:
    More rear seat room.
    Power rear shade
    Navigation system
    More horsepower
    Much more sound deadening
    Kill the rimless front windows
    Power tilt wheel integrated with memory seats and mirrors
  • rob175rob175 Posts: 19
    My new ES300 is the first car that I've owned with HID headlights. Perhaps its just me, getting used to them, but they seem to be projecting at a low angle. At the 1000 mile check I asked them to take a look at them. They did, and said that they were "fine", but I have my doubts. They appear to only light up the pavement about 50 ft in front of the car. Is it just that they are so bright that makes them appear to "drop off" after 50 ft. At 40 miles an hour down a road that isn't too well lit, I feel that my forward vision should be illuminated better. The automatic leveling motors seem to be working fine, but I wondering if I should take it back to the dealer and have him check them again.....any advice/experience with this situation??
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    I think the redesigned ES300 will arrive next fall as a 2002 model. It coinside with the Camry which the ES300 is co-designed with. They share the basic body design, but shere less than 25% of the parts.

    I think the 2002 ES300 will probably go the same way. Bigger, more powerful, but probably remain as a refined car rather than a sports car, especially since the Lexus IS300 is doing so well.
  • lievliev Posts: 93
    what is NAK ES300?
  • enigmaoneenigmaone Posts: 128
    The 2002 ES300 arrives in fall 2001. It will be a totally redesigned ES300 from the 2001 model.

    As wenyue said, expect it to be bigger more powerful, more feature packed, and still remain more luxury than sport. And I wouldn't expect the price to go any higher than it is today.
  • s852s852 Posts: 1,051
    I would certainly hope the price wouldn't go any higher. If anything, it should drop or a lot more should be standard if the price remains or climbs any.
    By the time you load an ES300 up with the typical options it is not priced competitively.
    The options are overpriced and many optional items are standard on competing cars.
  • scongroscongro Posts: 80
    I'd expect the new ES to be a little cheaper than the current.

    As far as you mentioning options. In the long history of Lexus (11 Years), no 6-Cylinder Lexus ever had a Moonroof or Leather Standard (Save the LX 450).

    I'd expect to see the new ES start under the 30K mark, like the C-Class does for 2001. However, you will rarely see a stripped-down model of either. Owners of the Acura 3.2TL can see where Acura cut corners to get the car that cheap, and if they can't, they're lying.
  • enigmaoneenigmaone Posts: 128
    I don't think the 2002 ES300 will creep back under the magic $30K mark. I think the base MSRP will stick right around $31K, like the current one. Lexus doesn't really need to drop the price under $30K. The car sells where it is quite nicely, and when the car is redesigned for 2002, Lexus will easily sell every copy without a problem for the first 2 years.

    The reason the C-class creeps in below $30K is because you get the smaller 2.6L V6 engine with it. The ES300 will continue with only one engine choice, that being a 3.0L V6 or larger.

    Plus the ES300 will continue to be built in Japan meaning it will cost more than a 3.2TL, and the higher value of the yen right now and in the forseable future means that a price cut is very unlikely when the new one comes out. You can also expect to see some new standard features that are now optional, like the 6CD changer will be standard for 2002.
  • s852s852 Posts: 1,051
    I don't know about "Lexus doesn't really need to drop the price."
    That sounds pretty arrogant like Mercedes Benz in 1989 before Lexus came out.
    I think most people believe Lexus is somewhat nicer or more prestigous than an Acura or Infiniti, but when the price ends up several thousand more on a $30K range price class, people start questioning if it is really worth that much of a price difference.
    $37K for a loaded ES doesn't look attractive.
  • enigmaoneenigmaone Posts: 128
    Then you must go buy a Infiniti I30!

    The ES300 is priced in between lower cars like the I30 and Acura 3.2TL and Mercedes-Benz C280/C320 and BMW 330i. Again, because of Lexus' higher prestige level than Acura & Infiniti, Lexus is going to charge more for the car. Please don't expect Lexus to price the ES300 at Acura 3.2TL or Infiniti I30 levels. Quite simple you shouldn't think that because its not going to happen. Unless out of nowhere Infiniti or Acura suddenly turns into a car with the level of prestige of a Lexus or even higher like a Benz. You think thats happening in the near future???

    Here's another simple theory. The Acura 3.2TL & Infiniti I30 are priced lower than the ES300 because they know they couldn't sell a loaded 3.2TL or Infiniti I30 for $35K-$37K.
  • s852s852 Posts: 1,051
    I didn't say they would price it at exactly the same price as a TL or I30, but when the difference is so huge, people will pass it by qand they have.
    Have you seen were the ES300 has been ranking in the most recent comparison tests?
    This is exactly the same as the situation when Lexus came out in 1989. Mercedes did not drop their prices right away because they felt the Mercedes name was enough to command any price they wanted.
    Without any serious competion, that may have been right.
    In 1989 Mercedes probably said something similar to what you posted. "Lexus is selling their 1990 LS400 for $35K because they know they couldn't sell it for what we charge for our S class."
    The previous-generation TL and I30 were not that appealing and really were not selling that well. The current ones are much improved and are selling much better as the result (especially the TL).
    The new LS430 is much higher priced than a 1990 LS400, but compared to a Mercedes S-class, it is still aggressively priced.
    If they are pricing the ES300 significantly higher than a TL or I30, people are going to see where the money went. They will want everything the competing cars have plus better looks, significantly richer materials and better driving feel than the competion not just a Lexus name badge.
  • vernlewvernlew Posts: 87
    I believe enigmaone is correct (as usual) in his comments.

    The ES is only slightly more than the TL and I30, and significantly less than a C class or 3 series. (since the Germans have gone to a practically no discount pricing structure) Sure, you can say that the TL and I30 are a little sportier...but, still not close to Bimmer territory. I really like the MB and BMW, but, I don't like spending a lot of time in the service department. I would say there is a certain amount of compromise in most cars at every price point...I like what Lexus has chosen to emphasize.

    Also, you must remember we are at the end of model cycle for the current ES...so, I would expect some improvements when the new body style is introduced soon.

    Vern
  • turbotcturbotc Posts: 163
    not to mention that the resale value on the es300 should be better than the i30 or TL.
  • s852s852 Posts: 1,051
    I'll save further comments until I actually see the new 2002 ES300.
    I don't think the current aging ES model is a good value for what you get, but when the new model comes out and it then becomes the most modern design compared to the competition, that could change.
    Even though I expect it to cost more as usual, if there is substance and additional refinement that you can see and feel it might be worth it.
    I certainly hope the styling does not get messed up with the new design.
  • I currently own a 1998 Toyota Camry XLE V-6 and I am looking to buy an ES300 within the next year, probably a 1998-1999 certified pre owned. I am wondering if any of you think that that the new ES300 coming out will drop the prices of the current generation (1997-2001) ?? And I was just over at Camryman.org and a guy said the they were showing the 2002 Camry at the Las Vegas Auto Show. He said that it had a more rounded raked back look , kinda like the Dodge Intrepid. I don't know what to make of that, I personally like the current generation ES300. I would like to see them make HID's standard like the new TL. also to compete with the new TL a ML/Nav system would be nice, maybe a 5 speed automatic. I feel that the Lexus is a higher quality car( my mom owns a TL, they will be looking a an LS400) anyways I have noticed the TL is not as smooth, has fake wood, does not have full leather, the Acura/ Bose stereo is lacking. That, I belive,as well as the service/ warranty make up the Lexus difference. I really hope Lexus does not sacrifice quality to keep price low !! What do you all think ?
  • scongroscongro Posts: 80
    Look for the NAV to hit the option list in 2002, as every entry level car now has it. I can see LEV on there, though like it is now, good luck finding one.

    As far as HID's, now just realize that the only cars in the Lexus lineup that have HID's standard are the IS and the new LS/GS4. It looks like Lexus is trying to work them more in the lineup, with them standard now on 3 cars for 2001. However they're still an option on the GS3, ES, RX, and not available for 01 on the LX (the SC is gone for 01, but expect them to be std. on the new SC for 2002). So, that may go either way.

    enigmaone,

    You're probably right, the ES price will probably stay at the 31 mark it's at right now, but I'd like to see it a little lower, possibly where the C260 is (I know it's really called the 240). Mainly, because Lexus started out giving you as good or a better car than europe at a cheaper price, and they continued it with the LS 430 starting at 54K.

    The ES may continue at 31, and if it does, they will sell all that they can make, but it would be nice to see it start under 30, and maybe show Acura TL owners the light.
  • s852s852 Posts: 1,051
    If they think they can sell all they can make at $31K, then they won't sell it for less, but until we actually see what the car looks like and what the new features are, we won't have any idea whether it will be a hot seller or not.
    The new styling might be boring or it might be worse than boring and actually be ugly.
    They might get too bold with price increases despite hot competition from Mercedes, Acura and Infiniti. Anything is possible.
  • But do you think the prices of the 1997-2000 ES300 will drop as a result of the 2002 ES ? I am looking for the best time to buy and right now they are a little high !!
  • enigmaoneenigmaone Posts: 128
    2000 ES300 prices may drop a little when the 2002 comes out, but resale values of older cars rarely drop when new & subsequent generation cars are introduced.

    s852,

    THe reason the ES300 mainly ranks down low now on comparison tests is because of age. It is now in its 5th and last year of production and I wouldn't expect it to place #1 or #2. Second, the current ES300 platform dates back to 1992 which is another reason why it ranks mid-pack at highest. And third it is more expensive than the 3.2TL. But if you notice the 3.2TL is really the only car that is cheaper in its class by a wide margin than the ES300. The I30 is not that much cheaper. A similarly loaded I30 is about $2k less and as I said before some of its other main competitors in the real world(C-class, S70, 328i) cost more.


    Personally, at its current price level its priced only a little high(by about $1K) and mainly the only option that is a rip-off on the ES300 is the CD-changer. Of course for 2002, The CD-changer will be standard and HIDs will probably be standard.

    Also, I will say that Lexus has no reason to sink its price to the level of the Acura 3.2TL. Acura doesn't have the image of Lexus therefore they have to sell cars for less to get their name out and improve their image. Lexus on the other hand, has made their name already and can sell cars at a higher price level, so they will. As you can tell, they are also not charging Mercedes Level prices.
  • s852s852 Posts: 1,051
    Regardless of the MSRP, in the end the market will decide what the car will really sell for.
    If after seeing and driving it, if most buyers are willing to pay $33K for the new model loaded with the most common options (leather moonroof, heated seats, CD changer) and Lexus prices it at $35K at that equiptment level, then dealers will have to discount them to that price or else they will need to cut production to match the number of people willing to pay $35K.
    If MSRP is at right where people are willing to pay, then they will sell for MSRP. If the MSRP is lower, then dealers will be able to get a markup over sticker.
    I'm sure when they first come out, the combination of the initial novelty of the new model and the fact that the factory will not yet have ramped up to full production speed will result in poor deals for the first buyers.
  • rob175rob175 Posts: 19
    So....does anyone feel that their HID's are set too low?......I do. It appears that mine are aimed about 30-40 feet in front. And, on dark roads at 55 mph it feels as though I'm not getting enough forward visiblity without kicking on the brights.

    Any thoughts??
  • Just back from test-driving an LS 430 at my Lexus dealer.

    He said the 2002 ES will be in showrooms by September. Sales Manager has seen some pix and everything he hears is that the ES will go through a pretty extensive change (like LS). Bigger interior, Standard HID lights, Lexus link system, etc. Might be sales hype, but I tend to believe him.

    Let us know if anyone finds any pix/info on the new ES on-line.

    Thanks
  • enigmaoneenigmaone Posts: 128
    Of course the laws of supply and demand.

    If you're looking or hoping for the 2002 ES300 to be priced like a 3.2TL, stop hoping now.
  • lievliev Posts: 93
    the sticker price for ES300 with VP and heated seat is about 35K but it is shown that 1500 was substracted from it already. It is shown that the MSRP is around 4500 for these options on the sticke. However, when I added the VP and the heated seat together it is only about 2900. First, I thought Lexus adds each option individually to come up with 4400 but still when I tried to do that the number still not that big. Further, if we by the car with the VP, why do we have to pay for each option in the package individually? I tried to bring this up, but the salesman keeps saying that the discount has been included. I feel that Lexus is cheating their consumer. Any advice or any thoughts on this?

    liev
  • mafitchmafitch Posts: 10
    Liev,
    I just wanted to share some of my experience to maybe give you a little perspective on feeling "cheated". My mother drives a 2000 RX 300, my father drives a 2001 LX 470 and I have a 2001 ES 300 on order.... Each of us has paid below sticker (allowing the dealer fair profit of course) and in all of our experience with Lexus we have never been more satisfied. Once you own an automobile of this caliber you will understand. Yes it is an investment, yes it is expensive but in my experience, it is not possible to purchase so much car for the same or less money. Lexus goes to great lengths to satisfy their customers and it would be very difficult for them to do that if they were cheating people. In fact I would say it is hard for any car company to cheat their customers due to the fact that there are so many options available in the market today. Perhaps it is your dealer or maybe the way it is being explained is not in a manner that you are understanding. Regardless, it is probably wise to get a quote from another dealer or an internet buying service....compare numbers...see what happens. My advice is BUY THE CAR, by the time you get out of the parking lot, that feeling of being cheated will be a distant memory. Best wishes.
  • sddlwsddlw Posts: 361
    The dealer does not generate the MSRP window sitcker, so there is little chance of any deception there. It could very well be that the sales guy you were talking to was as confused as you were. Not many are rocket scientists. Take a pad of paper and jot down all of the numbers, then go to the new car part of Edmunds and compare numbers. You should find them essentially the same. You should not be "double charged". But where Edmunds lists the price of the Value Option Package after the discount, the window sticker shows a full retail price and then a separate discount, in the end, the same $$ out of pocket.

    If you can put off the purchase of your 2001 ES300 until January or a little longer, you should be able to get some really deap discounts as the current body style is phased out for the 2002s. Any 2000 cars ES300 cars left now should also be heavily discounted. Go back over the last 3 months worth of posts in this forum to follow several buyers negotiations (including my own. Posters struck deals in the $31-$32K for either a VP+extras or Platinum edition 2000 cars. Many tips and information sources were shared.
  • cdm2cdm2 Posts: 7
    Hi:
    Does anyone know if the new 2002 coming next year is a totally brand new design from the ground up or is it just one of those major upgrade from the current model??? Any link that I can get to see
    a picture of it??? Thanks guys. BTW, I think Lexus
    cars have much better reliability than MB or BMWs.
  • scongroscongro Posts: 80
    In September of 2001 (or thre about) Lexus will release a new ES, redesigned from the ground-up, in the same way the LS was for 2001.

    Pictures and details are sketchy as of right now, but I have seen a camoflaged photo of what looks to be the new Camry. It has a little bit lower front end (I know, it's pretty low now).

    And yes, Lexus reliability is MUCH better than the Germans (and the english for that matter).
  • enigmaoneenigmaone Posts: 128
    liev,

    The $1500 subtracted on the sticker price is not really a discount. Its basically marketing. What Lexus does is give the customer a $1500 discount by buying the Value package which has the options bundled in it. Otherwise, if you bought the options separately, you would spend $1500 more at retail price for each option.

    For example.

    No value package:
    Leather trim package: $1885.00
    CD-changer: $1,080.00
    Moonroof: $1,000.00

    This totals to: $3,965.00

    Now with the Lexus Value package all 3 of the above option package are lumped into one package for $1,965.00.

    Thereby this yields you a $2,000 savings, on the sticker price of the vehicle.

    The one trying to cheat you on the deal is your dealer, not Lexus NA. Don't fall for what your dealer says, of the discount already being there. Look at the MSRP vs. Invoice for a ES300 the way you want it equipped, with the Value package and heated seats(I think you want them?) not with each individual option.
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