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2009 Subaru Legacy Limited - TPMS Light

pilot1226pilot1226 Posts: 165
edited September 13 in Subaru
Hi all,

The TPMS light is pretty persistent on my dashboard over the last few weeks. I've been measuring the air on a cold tire before it's driven per the door jamb on the car:

Fronts 33 psi, Rears 32 psi.

All of the tires are within 1-2 lbs of the recommended limit, with the exception of the right rear tire (passenger side rear tire), which came it at a surprising 25 psi.

Several times, I have added air to the tire to bring it to the 32 psi, and it will last for 1-2 days, and the light will return.

I've inspected the tire with a flashlight, run my hands over the treads, and I can't find any debris or other issues that could indicate a leak (like hitting a nail, etc.) So, this post is more of a "what exactly does my TPMS sensor do on my car" question.

Does the TPMS have the ability to "release" the valve to let out excess air pressure? My thought is that if the sensor is faulty, and it thinks that there's too much air, if it's releasing some to get it in check. I've had a relative that had this issue on their `08 Nissan Sentra and it turned out that the sensor was faulty.

I'm not sure if the Subaru ones are as complex or complicated, and either way I will be bringing it up to the dealer when I bring it in for my 18,750 mi service in a week or two.

Any thoughts? Thanks.
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Comments

  • fibber2fibber2 Mid Hudson Valley, NYPosts: 3,735
    As far as I know, the TPMS is simply a "measure and report" system, and not interactive or self adjusting in any way. While it is integral with the schrader valve, standard parts like a valve core and seals should be there preventing air from exiting. Most likely you simply have a leak. Could be a bead or rim problem, or the TPMS/valve itself, but it shouldn't be losing air by design.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I learned to spray soapy water on the tire and look for the bubbles to indicate a slow leak. Air it up first, though.

    Could be a nail that stayed in, and only leaks when the car is moving, or when the tire temps rise.
  • Can you explain the bead/rim and how it affects the tire pressure?

    Reason I ask is because either myself or my wife hit a pretty serious pothole in April of `09 and the sidewall bubbled. We had the tire replaced shortly after that and we were told the "rim was bent bad, but we will use a bead sealer on it" to fix the problem. I was told that if the sealer didn't work, we would have to purchase another rim, which we were given an estimate of around $1000. (To which, I replied, better fix it with the bead sealer!)

    Not another word was spoken about the rim and we've had no issues until the cold weather started up around November of 2009, in which case I started this routine of putting more air in the tire.

    I know for a fact I've had some rotations since then, but I'm not sure if it's the same one as the one that was replaced. I can see if it has a different DOT number and see which tire it's on. But otherwise, yeah, I was thinking a slow leak from a nail that's still imbedded in the tire.

    I'll go grab a flashlight and go take a peek at the tires now.

    So, my last question is, what exactly does bead sealer do, when is it used, and is it a permanent solution, or is it possible I need to get more of it reapplied assuming that the rim in question is the issue?

    I wonder if I could find a rim from a junker nearby, if it came down to that.

    Thanks.
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 8,644
    The bead is essentially the contact between the rim and the tire. When air pressure is applied to the inside of the tire, it forces the tire against the lip on the rim and creates a seal. When the rim's lip is bent, it can result in uneven pressure on this sealing point and allow air to leak. A bead sealer acts as a gasket between the tire and the rim to help ensure a seal. It does not actually fix the bent rim, but it can prevent the tire from leaking at that point.

    It is entirely possible that the leak is coming from this rim and cold weather would certainly exacerbate it. When things get cold, they shrink.

    OEM rims are ridiculously overpriced. If you can find a rim off a wrecked example for a reasonable cost, that would be the way to go. Otherwise, you could likely get a full aftermarket set for much less than $1000. It is not a time-critical issue, though, as long as you are aware of it and continue to check the pressure in that tire.
    2010 Subaru Forester, 2011 Ford Fiesta, 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup, 1974 Ford Pinto Wagon
  • fibber2fibber2 Mid Hudson Valley, NYPosts: 3,735
    I think it is likely that you have identified the cause...

    The bead seal is where the stiffened edge on the tire has to make an airtight seal against the inner lip of the metal wheel/rim (alloy or steel). In the old days, or on most bicycles, the air is held in by an inner tube. "Tubeless" technology relies on a rubber to metal seal to do the same. During mounting, a slippery water based glue helps promote the seal, and from then on, air pressure holds it all in place.

    If the wheel no longer has a perfect mating surface, a more potent glue is used. But if everything is too compromised, large changes in shape (think winter) could pull it very slightly apart. Or, it could have even developed a hairline fracture that is giving way over time. If it was visibly damaged in the pothole incident, you should be able to see and identify which one. If it is this rim, you need to replace it, NOW! Please realize that you are playing with fire. A sudden a blowout and crash will ruin your whole day.

    I would expect the cost of an OEM alloy wheel probably runs about $300 - $450. You might be able to find one cheaper on-line. Steel wheels are under $100. A quote of $1000 sounds crazy!
  • fibber2fibber2 Mid Hudson Valley, NYPosts: 3,735
    Hey Wes! I got interrupted, and when I finished and posted, you got there first. Only thing I disagree with is the urgency. Not knowing why it is losing pressure would prompt faster action on my part. Then again he does have TPMS to tell him when disaster is imminent.
  • Thanks for the info. I'll check the number on the tires tomorrow in the morning and see if it's the one that was replaced. We were told that the rim was bent - we didn't see it. The only visible markings we saw on the rim itself was the distinctive pothole marking from when the tire "rubs" against the rim, leaving a black mark.

    I'm a pretty big fan of the OEM rims and I'd prefer to keep them all consistent, though I did see on some websites that I can get them individually for around 125-175.

    On the off chance that this is a different wheel we're talking about, I'm slightly irked at the fact that this is now the second Yokohama I've had an issue with in the last year and a half I've owned the car.
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 8,644
    Yeah, I caught that, and it is a good point. I was not considering the possibility of a compromised rim (in other words, the aluminum alloy is cracked). That could definitely give out in a catastrophic manner especially if the leaking is a result of the fatigue growing worse and not a result of winter shrinkage compromising the bead.
    2010 Subaru Forester, 2011 Ford Fiesta, 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup, 1974 Ford Pinto Wagon
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 8,644
    edited February 2010
    It may be that the quote you received was for a set of four, not a single rim. I would think the price you listed of $125-175 is much more accurate for a single rim. If you go with OEM, there would be no reason to replace the whole set.

    Of course, if you hit a pothole, wouldn't two tires/wheels be affected (front and back)? Maybe the problem now is from the tire on that side that was not replaced the first time around.
    2010 Subaru Forester, 2011 Ford Fiesta, 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup, 1974 Ford Pinto Wagon
  • I suppose anything's possible. We live in Northern NJ so it's pothole central up here, and the constant snow accumulation & plowing certainly isn't helping them go away.

    My wife and I were pretty stunned when we were told it's typical pothole damage to the tire & rim, because neither of us (she is the primary drive, though I do take it from time to time) recalled any "jolting" potholes like they were describing.

    I'll keep that in mind when I check the tires tomorrow - since rotations follow a standard path, I'll see if it was "behind" the front passenger side that was actually damaged. I'll go dig out my paperwork and find out how many rotations I've done. Pretty sure I've done 2 so far - 7500 and 15000. So, it all depends on where they mounted the replacement.
  • fibber2fibber2 Mid Hudson Valley, NYPosts: 3,735
    It's good that we're 'double teaming' this, as Wes brought up an excellent point to look at the other tire on the same side as that might be the current leaker.

    OEM wheels are way overpriced. I bought respectable looking alloy rims from TireRack for both our Outback and Honda Odyssey with snow tires (I live a 100 or so miles north of you). A set of 4 was cheaper than a single OEM rim for either vehicle.

    Remember a couple of rules regarding Subaru AWD systems:
    1) Rotate front to back - do not cross (I never understood this one, but it's what they say).
    2) Tire circumference must be close to the same all around to not put stress on the center differential. See your owners manual for details. They recommend replacing tires in pairs if there is a substantial difference in thread depth.
  • I'm almost positive that my tires are not directional and follow a standard rotation pattern. Either way, I've done all my rotations at my Subaru dealer nearby, so if that was done in error, it's their problem.

    I'm familiar with the circumference issue. It seems like the spare tire is 16" whereas the other tires are 17". I remember reading the owner's manual when we first got the car and it included instructions on disabling the AWD via a fuse.

    Alright, out to the car now to see the which was replaced.
  • Service Papers in hand and pictures of the tires...

    12/15/08 - 3750 mi service
    04/14/09 - 7500 mi service (Tire Rotation)
    04/16/09 - Passenger Rear Tire replaced (sidewall bubble)
    07/24/09 - 11250 mi service
    11/10/09 - 15000 mi service (Tire Rotation)

    So, looking at the pictures:

    Passenger Front: fdh4 nxf4907
    Passenger Rear: fdh4 nxf4907*
    Driver Rear: fdh4 nxf1908
    Driver Front: fdh4 nxf4907

    So, we can see that the Driver Rear tire is the one that was replaced as this DOT number matches my documentation from the shop where I replaced the tire. Given the 2 rotations, it appears that the replaced tire has followed the typical rotations per the Subaru owner's manual below:

    [IMG]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f203/disregardec/subaru.jpg[/IMG]

    Whether the dealer actually follows this or not, I don't know. I know that my previous car, a Civic, had a different rotation path even with non-directional tires.

    So, it seems like between the two rotations, the passenger rear went to the driver front, then the driver rear where it is now.

    This means that the tire with the persistent TPMS light was on the Driver Rear at the time the other had the sidewall bubble - on the other side of the car. So, to me, this rules out mauling a curb or the same pothole being the culprit. Again, a lot of this "theory" depends on whether or not they were rotated the way the owner's manual said, but so far, all my rotations have been done by the dealer. And, we ruled out that it's definitely not my new tire that's leaking, which is a relief.

    I didn't see a nail or anything irregular in the treads themselves. Either way I'll have the dealer look at it when I take it in for the 18,750 mi service next week.
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 8,644
    Either way I'll have the dealer look at it when I take it in for the 18,750 mi service next week.

    Sounds like a good plan at this point.
    2010 Subaru Forester, 2011 Ford Fiesta, 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup, 1974 Ford Pinto Wagon
  • fibber2fibber2 Mid Hudson Valley, NYPosts: 3,735
    Now there's an interesting fun fact. Subaru has changed it's long standing tire rotation policy and now recommends cross-rotation??? In my previous post, I was advising you to follow what appears to be an outdated set of instructions.

    From my owners manual:
    Tire wear varies from wheel to wheel. To maximize the life of each tire
    and ensure that the tires wear uniformly, it is best to rotate the tires every
    7,500 miles (12,500 km). Rotating the tires involves switching the front
    and rear tires on the right-hand side of the vehicle and similarly switching
    the front and rear tires on the left-hand side of the vehicle. (Each tire
    must be kept on its original side of the vehicle.)
  • pilot1226pilot1226 Posts: 165
    Well, I had the car serviced today. They took the tire off and put it in a tire bath and basically came to the conclusion that there's no air escaping from it. So, I guess that's good news. No nail or any other irregular markings to suggest tire damage.

    The dealer suggested that if I continue to have the issue that I take the car to a tire shop because they have some more advanced equipment.

    Shrug.

    Not sure if I asked this above, but is it possible for the Subaru TPMS system to "vent" when the pressure is too high? Reason I ask is because I'm wondering if the recent heat changes in my neck of the woods could contribute to the light coming on. (From weather in the 50's to the 20's).

    Otherwise, I'll have to keep an eye on it. The light came on today while driving it to the dealer for service, but before that, it was good for about 2 weeks without filling it.
  • fibber2fibber2 Mid Hudson Valley, NYPosts: 3,735
    edited March 2010
    Not that I have ever heard. It is simply a monitor system, and not reactive.

    I still think there is a leak somewhere. The problem with a tire bath is that it is a 'no-load' test. Your tire might only leak out a small amount of air during certain dynamic operations, such as hitting a bump or pothole, cornering loads that push against the bead, when hot and the internal pressure exceeds a certain threshold, etc.

    It could be a rim problem, where the tire meets the rim, or the TPMS/valve unit itself.
  • pilot1226pilot1226 Posts: 165
    Okay, that makes sense. So, if I bring it to the shop where I had the one tire replaced (a Yokohama retailer nearby), what kind of test(s) should I be asking for, and what's a reasonable price for it?
  • snowbeltersnowbelter Posts: 287
    I had a slow leak (1 lb/wk) on my 07 and took it to a tire place. They used a water bath and had trouble finding a leak, but finally found a leak around the tiny gasket used to attach the TPMS unit to the rim. They showed me where it was corroded, but not from rust.

    They told me that the material the gasket was made of was reactive to the alloy wheels which caused corrosion and then a leak. They replaced the gasket with one of a different material. They said there was a Bulletin out on the problem.

    I don't remember whether the new gasket was silicone or whether silicone was the one that was reactive to the wheels.

    I later mentioned this to my Subaru dealer, and they were not aware of the problem.

    We've also had slow leaks around the rim due to corrosion from the salt used on the roads here. I don't think your car is old enough for your leak to be due to this problem.
  • pilot1226pilot1226 Posts: 165
    Another winter is here and sure enough this same issue persists. Only in the colder months - when the temperature outside is around or below freezing (32F), the TPMS light will come on affecting the front two tires. This is persistant, despite rotations. I think there may be some type of problem with the Yokohama tire itself?

    When I fill it to 33PSI cold, as the door jamb suggests, it lasts for about 2 days, then the light returns. It seems the front tires will "stable off" around 27PSI and won't lose any more air at this point.

    The rear tires have been a solid 30PSI and don't require any air.

    But, considering all the quarters I've put into air pumps at the local gas stations, I might as well have bought new tires by now.

    Do I have to have the lower-profile tires with the Legacy, or is there a way to get a conventional tire profile for when I get these things replaced?
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    That does seem odd. When the temperatures drop however, your air pressures will go down, causing the TPMS light to come on. I would pump em up to 35psi and see if they can stay stable.

    -mike
    Subaru Guru and Track Instructor
  • pilot1226pilot1226 Posts: 165
    According to TireRack.com, the Yokohamas on the Legacy are Yokohama Advan A82A (Ultra-High-Performance All Seasons) 205/50R17, V rated though I wouldn't be foolish enough to try to push 149mph in Northern Jersey, too much traffic!

    Max inflation pressure is 44 psi, so I'm comfortable to inflating it to 35psi in that I won't pop them in highway driving as the pressure increases.

    Since the light is on - again - I'll go and hit the nearby pump one last time and we'll see how long it lasts. Driving doesn't seem to affect it in anyway, so the only thing I can think of is some bad contact between the stem and the tube or something along those lines, but it's so weird because it only affects them when they're in the FRONT, meaning the pressure from the engine is really pushing on them.

    At any rate, what are your opinions on Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus or Pilot Exalto A/S? The Sport Plus is a little bit more money ($10 per tire, give or take), but the treadwear is 500 as opposed to the 400 of the Sport Plus. The Sport Plus is also listed as High Performance, whereas the A/S is "ultra-high."

    Thanks, will check back in a few days. If it weren't for this tire glitch, I would say the Legacy is a perfect car for my needs. (Though come spring we will be selling our Nissan and getting a new Outback!)
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Hey, I'm in NNJ too! If you wanted to come by our shop we could check it out for you and see what's up.

    I love the Pilot Sport AS Plus. I got them free with a set of rims recently and drove em for about 6 months. They are actually very amazing.

    -mike
    Subaru Guru and Track Instructor
  • fibber2fibber2 Mid Hudson Valley, NYPosts: 3,735
    edited January 2011
    This is a long shot, but lets see if it holds water (pun intended...).

    You mentioned $1 air pumps. Ever not make a good seal to your schrader valve and see all of the water spray out? Common, as these standalone outdoor compressors are usually poorly maintained.

    Ideally, you want a dry tire fill - nitrogen/oxygen. Then the pressure follows the basic relationship of the Ideal Gas Law (linear change in pressure with change in temp). Water changes that, as the relative humidity within the tire rises with decreasing temp, condensation forms, then it freezes. This phase change makes the whole pressure relationship non-linear. Worse, if the water works its way into the bead and freezes, it could unseat the tire and cause a leak.

    Granted they use various composition bead sealers and lube when they mount the tire, but you might have a lot more water in there now than you should. I also wonder if this isn't also part of the corrosion problems at the TPMS seal others are reporting.

    When you change tires, have them inspect the bead seal area, and wipe everything down before mounting the new tires.

    For $35 you can buy yourself a very nice little compressor and stop filling your tires with crud.
  • pilot1226pilot1226 Posts: 165
    Thanks for your response. I saw this on Amazon, seems like it got some good reviews:

    http://www.amazon.com/Campbell-Hausfeld-RP3200-Inflator-Worklight/dp/B000642GAM/- ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295363187&sr=8-1

    I used to have a Black and Decker Air Station a while ago that finally gave out, and never replaced it. The B&D unit is a little more expensive and corded (there's a cordless version that's available that's around $20 more than the one I listed above).

    I'll probably grab the top one unless anyone here has had a very bad experience.
  • pilot1226pilot1226 Posts: 165
    after reading a bit more, I decided to buy the Black and Decker cordless inflator. Seems like a sturdier unit, can be "charged" and also can run off the vehicle's 12V port... There were a few reviews that the cord on the one I previously listed was too short to reach the rear tires (lol!)
  • pilot1226pilot1226 Posts: 165
    The Black and Decker ASI500 Cordless Air Station is great! The MSRP on this is around $130, but you can find this heavily discounted on online retailers like Amazon.

    It's chargable, and claims to be able to fill all 4 tires in a single charge (not from a fully deflated state, though), and did a great job of putting a few pounds back into the tires on my Legacy.

    The air hose portion that actually connects to the valve can get slightly "stuck" when you are removing it - so I overinflated by 0.5 psi, then took a measurement with a digital tire gauge and it was right on the money (33PSI front).

    So, we'll see how long this lasts. I'm sorry I missed your post above, Mike. I will definitely consider the Pilot A/S then when these are due. According to reviews of TireRack, these OEM Yokohamas aren't only expensive, but they don't last (and got some pretty bad reviews for handling, etc!) Luckily, I think the local Costco sells Michelins, so I will probably shoot over in another couple thousand miles.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Cool, like I said we are local to you so if you need a hookup on tires let me know.

    -mike
    Subaru Guru and Track Instructor
  • are you filling it up inside and warmer temps then bringing it outside to colder temps. and are you filling them cold (not driven) if you want 32 pounds cold fill it up inside to about 37 and it will be 32 outside.
  • fibber2fibber2 Mid Hudson Valley, NYPosts: 3,735
    TireRack recommends about a 3 psi overfill when done in a attached garage to compensate for actual outside winter temperatures. Just a guide - you need to figure out the right 'adder'
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