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The real value of "old" cars?

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Comments

  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,625
    Wow!

    That Safari Wagon is beyond fantastic!

    The 1960 Bonneville just looks like a ho-hum money pit but that wagon is something else!

    Those were few and far between to begin with and that one has some ultra rare options and super low miles!
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,567
    You can't comp it. The sales price is the market.

    Awesome wagon...GM sure knew how to do it once.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,625
    I love those wheels! They were used mainly on Gran Prix's of that era.

    Thre trouble is, the finned aluminum part that you see is actually the brake drum!

    Back when I managed a shop in the mid-seventies they were near impossible to get from the dealers and they cost over 100.00 each then!

    Better than awesome! Incredible and irreplaceable.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,625
    Our son spotted this on Craigslist.

    http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/1889771023.html

    I know nothing about these but it sounds like it would be a tough project.

    Shifty? anyone?
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,567
    The wheels and interior both on that car are very cool. That wagon is expensive, but if you are into it, it's a bargain - as you will never find another one.

    The Jensen-Healey...another reason why the British automotive industry in effect does not exist today. The pain required to get that thing up to 50K miles must have been huge.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,527
    There's really no upside to restoring Jensen Healey. Parts are a b***ch and the car doesn't even have a soft top.

    I'd vote "parts car".

    MODERATOR

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,527
    edited August 2010
    Nice old wagon, but.....

    ....the add-on for Tri-Power on a *convertible* is only 25%, so I can't see the add-on being any more for a station wagon of all things.

    My estimate for "show car" is $20,000 tops tops tops. Interesting history, but not 'celebrity' really. If it was Bill France's car, that might give it a bump. But seller's story makes no sense---if it was "built for a GM exec", why was it delivered to a dealer?

    He's absolutely batty not to take the $26K bid, or at least to drop his reserve immediately. This is 2010, and this is a station wagon. C'mon.

    MODERATOR

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,616
    i thought the black and white picture was pretty funny.
    done in black and white, but has a www. address on the sign for the movie theater.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,897
    edited August 2010
    Back in the early 90's, I worked at a department store called Hecht's (May company, and today they're all Macy's). It was built in 1958, and parts of it had not been remodeled in ages. Well, someone had written a poem on the wall in the stock room in the childrens' department, probably back in the late 60's or early 70's, about a Pontiac something-or-other (probably a Firebird or Trans Am) racing a Camaro Z-28. Unfortunately it's not there anymore, as I remember that part of the store getting remodeled around 1994 or so.

    The one line I remember was "Tri-Power's okay, but it's not enough. When racing a Z, you got to be tough."

    So, was Tri-Power not as big of a deal as Pontiac would have liked you to believe?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,625
    I re read the ad and I think it does have a soft top just no hardtop.

    These were never very popular so I'll bet parts are near impossible.

    I know nothing about Webers or Lotus engines but I just smell nothing but big trouble and headaches. Not worth a resoration but I was thinking maybe a Sunday driver?
  • rtribrtrib Posts: 3
    Guy's, I wonder if you can help me. I've never chatted on one of these lines before so forgive me if I don't follow the right protocall. I have the chance to buy a 1967 GTO in real nice shape, 68,000 miles, no rust, many options... My question is, the car has an option on the original window sticker called economy engine. it has an original 2 barrel carb?? would this car be worth less or possibly more because it might be a rare car?
    If you can't help me do you know where to send me for this information?
    Thanks
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,530
    Erf - 2 bbl + GTO = ugh.
    Don't pay much, it's a Tempest with a trim pack.
  • rtribrtrib Posts: 3
    no, it's the real thing. All the paperwork is there, right down to the original window sticker. All the numbers are correct.
  • texasestexases Posts: 5,530
    I guess I was a bit too sarcastic. I don't doubt its authenticity, just its value. Who wants the slowest GTO made?
  • omarmanomarman Posts: 695
    edited August 2010
    "My question is, the car has an option on the original window sticker called economy engine. it has an original 2 barrel carb?? would this car be worth less or possibly more because it might be a rare car? If you can't help me do you know where to send me for this information?"

    If you google search 1967GTO dot com you'll find a site devoted to stats, codes, and all other things related to that GTO.

    According to that source there were almost 3,000 GTOs built in '67 with the 2 bbl, low compression engine. Not rare or desired by collectors. But, hey, maybe a nice old cruiser without the fuel appetite (or auction price) of a high option Goat. And I agree with the price advice already posted: Don't pay too much for what you're getting. :shades:
  • omarmanomarman Posts: 695
    Better than awesome! Incredible and irreplaceable.

    And the station wagon faithful rise again! I really like that Safari, too. Maybe we can't help it because we grew up with those pre-minivan kid haulers. It's funny how this always happens! :)

    Maybe in the future the next gen will text each other excitedly about finding one of those rare, turbo/5-speed Caravans for sale. And then comes the appraisal, "It's 2030 and that is a minivan. nfm."
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,187
    Much of the value assigned to older cars is related to nostalgia, and values change as tastes change. This makes it really difficult to predict future values of the vast majority of collector cars. The real classics, as defined by Shifty, may be the exception to the rule. As a practical matter, then, a buyer should assume that the mass produced '50s or '60s collector car that one pays more than its transportation value for, is only be worth ~$1,000 - $2,500. Anything above that rough range is nostalgia value.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,625
    As long as you don't pay much and you realize this is the least desirable GTO they made you may be OK.

    I never understood why they even bothered making these? The purpose of a mighty GTO was brute power. These are a gelding in effect.

    Yes, it's defianatly worth less. A lot less and the GTO community scoffs at these.

    Still, I guess it might make a nice cruiser.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,527
    edited August 2010
    The market value is set by supply and demand, not the "merits" of the vehicle. Some truly AWFUL cars are worth more $$$ than you'd think at first glance.

    Why can something that might be ugly, or incompetent, or poorly engineered, or shoddily made, be worth much more than a beautiful used Mercedes 500SL?

    Because more people want one of the "collectible" cars than there are for sale.

    PONTIAC SAFARI --- my main complaint with this auction poofery is the claim that "only 5 were made". This is nonsense. Many MANY more were made, but just a few with tri-power.

    Note that distinction.

    I could go buy a cheap Safari wagon and put tri-power on it easily. Then I go to the car show and park next to the guy with the "only 5 made" claim. He looks at mine, and says "IT's NOT REAL".

    I say "so what"? Our cars look identical, the people like both cars equally---so whaddya ya gonna do---spend all day waving your documentation in people's faces?

    If you *really* had a car that there were only 5 of, I couldn't possibly duplicate it for chump change, could I?

    Epic FAIL on "only 5 made" IMO.

    MODERATOR

  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,625
    I would think that the bucket seat option in that Safari would be even rarer than the tri power.

    I thought it was odd that as well equipped as it is that it didn't have power windows?

    Crazy, CRAZY money for it!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,625
    edited August 2010
    Well, the '60 Bonneville has hit 9700.00 with 8 hours left and the Safari has hit 26.600!

    The reserve hasn't been met! I wonder what the seller thinks it's worth??

    I think he should drop his reserve and grab the money some idiot is bidding!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,527
    I just can't see the money for that Safari. I'd comp it against other well-optioned higher end GM wagons.

    I don't know if the '60 Bonnie would make the 12K I suggested, but it'll be around there--maybe those rust patches are in fact worth a $2K discount.

    MODERATOR

  • omarmanomarman Posts: 695
    edited August 2010
    If you *really* had a car that there were only 5 of, I couldn't possibly duplicate it for chump change, could I?

    Hold on there chief. Chrysler built a bazillion E bodies including convertibles. But in 1971 only a few of those Cuda verts were Hemi 4-speeds and trade in the neighborhood of $2 mil. Less than 10% of that crazy zip code buys the clone version, and yes, the documentation in your face is everything! edited to add: At least for now.

    What happens when high rollers lose their appetite for matching numbers on Detroit iron? I'd rather be the guy who last sold the Hemi Cuda than the winning bidder!
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    edited August 2010
    Desirable optional equipment that is rare enhances value. Undesirable optional equipment that is rare does not. The 2 barrel carb GTO falls into the latter category. IIRC, it also came with a high (numerically low) rear-end, possibly a 2.41. Olds did the same thing with the 442 via a "Turnpike Cruiser" option.

    I once had a '67 GTO that may have been 1 of 1 as far as options were concerned. It was equipped with buckets, a column automatic, wheel covers, posi, and a non-pushbutton AM radio. It's rarity didn't make it any more valuable!

    I'd say to evaluate your prospective purchase using whatever yardstick you can to establish value and then deduct about 15%, maybe more. If it truly is otherwise optioned out and rust-free, it's worth buying in spite of the 2 barrel.
  • rtribrtrib Posts: 3
    Thats the honest opinion I've been looking for, I think I'm going to go for it. Thank you
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 21,897
    I just looked in my old car book, and it shows that '67 GTO with the 400-2bbl as having 255 hp. That sucker must have been really choked down. In comparison, the "standard" 400-2bbl, as used in a Catalina, had 290 hp, although the Catalina offered, as a credit option, a de-tuned 2-bbl with 265 hp that could run on low-octane fuel. The "regular" 400-4bbl had 325 hp, while the GTO's slightly hotter 4-bbl had 335.

    I wonder, on a car like this 2-bbl GTO, would this be one rare instance where modifying it from stock would boost its value? For instance, would upgrading it to the 335 hp setup, or better yet, the 360 hp setup (maybe that was the Tri-Power?), make the car more valuable? Or would it hurt it, because it's no longer original?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,625
    edited August 2010
    Hard to say. You would probably have to change the cam and pistons too and who knows what else.

    I wouldn't buy it just...well...because.

    A GTO shouldn't be a gelding and it's a shame they built them. Why not just buy a Le Mans instead?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,527
    These options are by no means equivalent, not even close. The Hemi engine adds 100%+ to value, maybe 200%, perhaps 400% (depending on the car).....the tri-power adds 20%.

    Furthermore the Hemi cars have all kinds of other modifications that go with the Hemi engine (both mechanical and cosmetic)----the tri-power is pretty much just a bolt-on to an otherwise stock car.

    Last of all, the cars numbers and data plate reflect the Hemi option.

    MODERATOR

  • omarmanomarman Posts: 695
    Haha! Obviously something lost in message board communication, sorry bout that.

    No, I'm not comparing Hemi power to Poncho power. It was...factory-built Hemi Cuda vs. Hemi clone in my comparison.

    Both Cuda examples are rotisserie built, better than new from Detroit. Both of them put together with gen-u-ine Mopar Hemi goodness. Neither car looking at all like the closed-shop orphans pushed out of the assembly line 40 years ago.

    Which one trades for more? The one with matching numbers and build sheet provenance of course. Which one is best? Let's take 'em to the track, drive the stink out of both and see which one goes faster! Sounds like fun, no?

    My comments were in response to your post: If you *really* had a car that there were only 5 of, I couldn't possibly duplicate it for chump change, could I? Epic FAIL on "only 5 made"

    Ya can't duplicate anything in today's market without the numbers matching, documenting, etc. That's just "cloning." And as seen on these boards and reflected in the hammer results at auction, when clones are pitted against documented cars for high bids, clones FAIL!

    I only used the Hemi Cuda comparison to illustrate just how big and truly "epic" the fail can get!

    Still, there was a time when Detroit iron was not valued to absurd levels based on data plate info and matching numbers. I think it's very likely that perspective will come back around.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,527
    edited August 2010
    Sorry for the mis-read of your post, and thanks for clarifying what you were trying to insert in my sometimes thick head.

    I find the entire "Church of Matching Numbers" pretty amusing, as the acolytes debate the Sacred Numbers on what is essentially a Dodge taxi cab, made in enormous numbers, with a rather special engine installed----vs. say, collectors of Ferraris and other limited production exotica who really are not terribly concerned with matching numbers, since race car engines were *expected* to blow up, and hence don't vastly diminish value. Even more amusing, the Ferrari factory would be happy to MAKE you an original engine and STAMP it with original numbers and this also does not trouble many vintage Ferrari buyers---or should I say, doesn't trouble the "market value" too much.

    And really, using words like "provenance" with Pontiac station wagons is bordering on satire.

    Go figure?? :confuse:

    MODERATOR

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