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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

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Comments

  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    Suggest you read in the Honda Odyssey 2005 + forum to find out about VCM and noise problems the Odyssey owners are worried about.

    Hans, I wanna know what this person has done to you!!! Why would you torture someone by having them read all the problems concerning the Odys?? I feel bad enough for socalawd and grad :( but then they brought it on on themselves.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    Personally, I have yet to meet a satisfied DCX minivan owner. Granted I have not met too many, but all those I have met would never buy another, me included.

    Until you have owned both DCX and Honda do even think about make a value judgment.


    I'm a very satisfied DCX Minivan owner, I'm on my 3rd trouble free minivan. The first 2 were company provided stripo versions that I totally thrashed without issue! I have many many friends with them, my best friends back in PA are on their 4th (it's all his wife wants) since 1985!

    It's a pleasure to meet you Art!

    Ohhh btw I've owned a few Honda products......a Civic and Integra. The Integra goes down as the worst new car purchase of mine, some due to actual problems but also, it attracted accidents (like company mailtruck slamming into the side of it while parked one day!)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    "One or two people complaining about a faulty engine would not raise much of a concern with me, but 3, 4 or 5 posts from different individuals and that may be statistically significant."

    Really!?

    Five posts out of 100,000 vehicles manufactured is significant? Ridiculous.

    Maybe I ought to trade you my truckload of sneakers for a couple of courses in statistics.


    I think the think people keep missing here is that it isnt "five posts out of 100,000 vehicles", like you say, Dusty. I would be willing to bet that at least ten times that many (50) have never visited the site before, but still have a similar problem. Maybe 5 posts out of 50 posters have a similar problem. That would be significant.

    Dusty, consider how many of us post here regularly? Maybe a dozen, tops. If I had a problem with a Honda power door, people say big deal, no issue there. But if two or three of us out of a dozen had a problem that was similar, then there is obviously an issue out there, beyond the few posters in this forum. Tell me when we have our 100,000th forum member that drives a DCX or Ody. I think he/she deserves a party.
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    When speaking of the Ody vs DC minivans...yes opinions by their very nature are biased. The road noise coming into a vehicle may be described as minor by an Ody owner...but may be reported to be hurricane category 5 to the DC owner. And visa versa. Noise level, handling, ride etc. ...these are mostly opinion.

    But, when you say something like "my engine caught on fire and my van blew up" or something similar...there is little bias in that...none. It is a fact. You have enough people posting that they have a similar experience...and it should raise some red flags as to whether someone would want to purchase said vehicle. These type of reported problems are not based on opinion.

    I doubt that there are 100,000 Ody/DC owners here at Edmunds, as Dusty has suggested.(I'll be waiting a long time for that party) But, as the graduate indicated, we don't have that many Ody/DC minivan members here at Edmunds. You look at how many members are posting in that problems topic...then look for patterns and number of posts related to a specific problem. One should look at the various Edmunds boards and topics as one source out of many to consider when purchasing a vehicle.

    Regards, ;)
    Jipster
  • socalawdsocalawd Posts: 542
    I feel bad enough for socalawd and grad but then they brought it on on themselves.

    Brought what?? Only thing I brought down on myself was a great vehicle purchase. Which everyone in my family loves. Sounds like quite a burden.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Hans, I wanna know what this person has done to you!!! Why would you torture someone by having them read all the problems concerning the Odys?? I feel bad enough for socalawd and grad but then they brought it on on themselves.

    Huh? What do you feel bad about? It's not a personal issue to me, not sure about y'all. Perhaps in the same manner, we should make hans sit and read the last eight years of Consumer Reports for DCX vans? Not making a whole lot of sense here(despite the sarcasm). Stop making these things personal, because I dont think hansienna was trying to, and you made it sound like he was. I dont have a problem with someone pointing out posts against my case. If there were none, why would we all be spending time in here? :D
  • dustykdustyk Posts: 2,926
    "Yes you still have no idea whats going on."

    Actually, despite being one of the unwashed defenders of something other than a Honda, I really do know what's going on. It's called sophistry.

    "So, I would hope that you would get the same kind of bais from people thats what makes CR more valid then these forums which people stumble onto and are totally annyomous."

    The "information" supplied by Consumers' Union about motor vehicles is no more valid than the comments in here because the only thing they could validate is the address of their subscriber. They do not and cannot validate ANY the information supplied by the individual. In this respect they are no better that the biased comments found in these forum.

    "at least with CR the person probably owns that car and is giving close to the real information."

    Incorrect. CR cannot validate they actually own the car. The information regarding what is owned by the subscriber is supplied by the subscriber and cannot be practically validated.

    " Also the survey is pretty indepth."

    Not really. Their annual surveys ask the make, model, and mileage of the vehicle. Then they ask to list "...any major problems." The term "major problems" is subjective as it is not defined anywhere on the survey. What may be "major" to one person may not to another.

    "Until dusty comes up with a walk up service that gets say 10% of the cars I'm going with CR. But if your able to do this Dusty I'll pay ya 15.00 a year for the service cause it sounds great!! "

    "Walk-up" surveys are referred to in the consumer research industry as "solicited" surveys. Don't worry about supplying me with a truck load of sneakers. There are a number of companies that do just that, J.D. Powers, Runzhiemer, Roberts Research just to name a few. So it is done and it done with regularity.

    Dusty
  • dustykdustyk Posts: 2,926
    No, you are missing something.

    Five posts out of 50 would be statistically significant, but its not fifty cars, it's tens of thousand. Fifty posts out of 100,000 vehicles is not significant. The statistical analysis of vehicle quality must be measured against a sample percentage of the TOTAL VEHICLE POPULATION, not the number of posts. So the five posts are not a valid sample to determine anything about 100,000 vehicles, and if by itself is not statistically invalid, it is statistically irrelevant.

    In addition, researchers know that unsolicited comments on surveys will generate the extremes in passion and hence biased. Researchers who develop unsolicited surveys generally perform a solicited component to determine a standard point as a reference in determing bias. Then the bias is factored out of the unsolicited survey. Consumers' doesn't do that and it most certainly isn't done in these forums.

    Dusty
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    Oh, here we go again with the statistical mumbo jumbo. Let's not turn this into another class on statistical analysis (which you have how many degrees in?) or Consumer Reports...I'm sure the burden would be to much for our hosts and other members. :cry:

    Let's get back to Ody vs D/C...socolaud...dennistic...take it away.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    Count me out for the weekend....in Columbus Ohio celebrating Halloween :)
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    (despite the sarcasm).

    Sorry, guess it hurts when there's truth behind the sarcasm!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    No, you are missing something.

    Five posts out of 50 would be statistically significant, but its not fifty cars, it's tens of thousand. Fifty posts out of 100,000 vehicles is not significant. The statistical analysis of vehicle quality must be measured against a sample percentage of the TOTAL VEHICLE POPULATION, not the number of posts. So the five posts are not a valid sample to determine anything about 100,000 vehicles, and if by itself is not statistically invalid, it is statistically irrelevant.

    In addition, researchers know that unsolicited comments on surveys will generate the extremes in passion and hence biased. Researchers who develop unsolicited surveys generally perform a solicited component to determine a standard point as a reference in determing bias. Then the bias is factored out of the unsolicited survey. Consumers' doesn't do that and it most certainly isn't done in these forums.

    Dusty


    You know, I think you just made my point...Again. Thanks
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Sorry, guess it hurts when there's truth behind the sarcasm!

    You need to read a post before replying to it. I dont have a problem with someone attacking something I am defending. I clearly stated that. Hurts? No...frankly, dennis is the least of my concerns. I'm not out here to "hurt" someone's feelings because their opinion is different from mine, nor can you hurt my feelings here. I think you can cut down on the macho games and talk about the vans. Count me out for a good chunk of the weekend. I have a 15 page paper to finish for tuesday, and a Philosophy exam on Tuesday, also. Now THAT, hurts.
  • socalawdsocalawd Posts: 542
    Walk-up" surveys are referred to in the consumer research industry as "solicited" surveys. Don't worry about supplying me with a truck load of sneakers. There are a number of companies that do just that, J.D. Powers, Runzhiemer, Roberts Research just to name a few. So it is done and it done with regularity.

    My brother in law is a site supervisor for a home builder lets call them Lennar(Since thats who it is) they do meet and greets with the condo phases they finish, and get this they pretty much tell them there bonuses are fixed to the surveys(which is the truth) and that they will take care of all there problems quickly if surveys go well!! Guess who?? a JD Powers survey. Who do you think provides JD Powers with a list of who bought there products, well mostly it's the Company who sold it. Now don't you think they could do a presurvey and find the people that are happy?? I know they do, I once worked for a company that moved up from 12th to 1st place in the VLSI awards by useing this stratagy, I was not happy!! SO, please don't tell me about how those things are run. I've seen them get tricked many times!! CR is way better than that. Why would regular people lie about what car they own?? Or what problems they've had there are very few people like the people on these boards, most just drive there car to work and don't think much about it. These boards are the most baised it didn't just show up in the mail!! These people(On Edmunds)went looking to tell other people what they thought! Heck there's even people in here who don't own a Minivan and just hate Honda or DCX products. Now thats crazy!!
  • socalawdsocalawd Posts: 542
    Let's get back to Ody vs D/C...socolaud...dennistic...take it away.
    Replies to this message:


    Well the seats are mighty comfortable in my Ody! JD powers gives the Ody 5 stars for comfort!!! Whatever thats worth!!
  • socalawdsocalawd Posts: 542
    What I have done in the past that has proved to be more accurate is walk-up questioning. This is an unsolicited survey in it's basic form, but it has proved to match my actual experience with our fleet cars and pretty much been on target with my personal experience

    Wow talk about the most baised of surveys go find people and then ask them questions from your point of view to satisfy your personal experience. How about I do a survey to find out how many times you said someone had a perceived intellectually/morally superior as a put down if they don't agree with your opinions?? I bet it happens in all sorts of forums, I for one never felt more superior by what I drive(heck its a minivan and a wagon LOL)!! This is one of the worst measurements of a persons worth. The people I admire most drive cars that I don't like, does that change my opinion of them NO!!!! Different people have differant tastes!! And I take alot of flak on the board for my pro Honda stance. The van had everything I was looking for VSC, comfort(purely opinion), good fuel economy, standard safety, good handling braking, good acceleration, bigger DVD screen, in floor lockable storage, resale value, and I even liked the looks better(again personal opinion)
    Go look at both cars. Make a choice thats best for you. That's when you'll be happy with your purchase!
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    Agree 100%. ;) Odyssey seats are very comfortable for 7 people and I would prefer to ride on the 8th seat (middle seat of 2nd row) than in the rear seat of almost any current sedan.
  • hayneldanhayneldan Posts: 657
    "Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opionion"
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    Any data on low end Chrysler fleet sale vehicles are likely to be useless....as there is no basis for comparison.( You don't need a degree in statistics to understand that.) Unless, dustyk also decides to manage and oversee the fleet purchase of some Honda Ody's in the near future.

    In a nutshell...though Consumer Reports survey is far from perfect, I would be more inclined to to believe data that comes from a team of highly educated degree holding statisticians...over someone who has managed a fleet of rental vans.

    That said....would you please hurry back from that Halloween party dennistic. :cry: I much prefer reading you and socalawd going at it than this current thread of stats,odys,C.R and sneaker wearing surveyors. :cry:
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,233
    For many years I was a Division VP of a major US corp and the vehicle fleet director reported to me. Spent a lot of time with that dept. in the beginning due to the tremendous potential to save money. We had approx. 2,000 vehicles at any given time and generally bought/sold 500 per year. I've looked at numerous statistics over the years (CR, etc.) and I generally give them very little credence. One persons major problem is someone else's minor problem. I can't make any type of determination based on a circle with a black/red dot through it. At least JD Powers does give you problems/100 vehicles which is at least a measurable number. BTW, if you look at the big picture even on long-term testing the difference between the best and worst is not much more than two service trips in 3 years. But again, even those surveys don't really give priority to major problems vs minor complaints. The Hummer H2 had a wicked JD Power rating, but reports indicated it was because the gas mileage was so low. Tells you something about the end users....but that's about it!

    Overall, our vehicles were quite reliable. We found our savings in adjusting our service intervals. Seems (in the early 90's) the domestic models we were running couldn't keep a transmission beyond about 120k miles. We adjusted our service time from 140k miles to 120k miles and we saved a ton. We did some testing on Accords and Camrys and they did have lower maintenance/repair costs and maybe we could have extended our service intervals (it gets risky over 150k miles due to random failures...) however the GM, Ford, Dodge models had such aggresive fleet sales on the front end you would have to go at least 200k miles to really save money. That's why nobody typically runs the imports in their fleets. The $ drives the decisions. If that was the case for personal use, everyone would be driving a base model domestic.

    I've personally purchased seven new vehicles since model year 2001. I've not received a single JD Power survey. Just something that's always surprised me. I don't subscribe to CR so I guess I won't be hearing from them!

    I've been around car forums since the beginning of the net. It's funny because generally speaking I've not had many problems with vehicles that turned up on the forums. Oh sure, a few here and there, but never ALL the problems from forum complaints. So statistically, if nothing else, I would also have to rate forum complaints as unreliable for the most part. So far my experience with our '05 Ody is quite good and I haven't had a single problem as listed from the forum. I don't think I would have expected the DC van to be unreliable based on my experience with DC products. It's not the same quality of a vehicle, but it's also quite a bit cheaper for the most part so that builds into the buying process. If bargain was my #1 concern, the DC van is hard to beat particularly when you go for the more vanilla models.
  • dustykdustyk Posts: 2,926
    My experience pretty much matches yours. My company runs a service provider fleet and at one time we had nearly 10,000 cars in operation at once. In the past we were a two-year leasing fleet with a 60,000 mile end contract (some cars went more years because of few miles), but we have gradually gone to three-four years and a 80,000 mile top stop. Like your company, we generally held Chevy/Ford/Plymouth cars with a few mid-size Buicks, Olds, and Mercurys in the mid-seventies. Up until recently we had an exception when our service reps were assigned to an automotive manufacturer. For instance, service reps in the Marysville, Ohio area drove Hondas if they visited the Honda facility. Since most of our reps carry quite a bit of machine parts we have migrated into mini-vans increasingly since the mid-eighties.

    I would often compare our results, of let's say several thousand of one particular model, against CR's data and almost always see discrepancies, sometimes very wide. The fact that CR's data is only based on subscribership is alone a statistical bias as the reporting population, by virtue of the fact that they are more consumer oriented, is outside the "average" car owner. And as you mentioned, the term "major problem" on CR's form leaves it entirely up to the subscriber to determine what is major and what is not. In this manner alone the ambiguousness of the completely open-ended questionnaire violates Standard Statistical Form, even for one that's unsolicited.

    Regards,
    Dusty
  • artgpoartgpo Posts: 483
    I agree with sebring95 and some others concerning the statistics and the method of their collection. Please keep in mind that J.D. Powers results are often touted by manufactures in their advertising leaving me to doubt their credibility. I wonder if that advertising does not result in some major $$ for the Powers company?

    I have subscribed to Consumer Reports since the late '60s. I always take their evaluations with a suspect eye. The earlier posting about the validity of their reader responses has to be considered.

    Too much time and effort has been expended here trying to argue about whose math is more accurate. I like to read about comparisons of vehicles by owners. The only reasonably reliable information is that which is posted by owners stating specific problems or satisfaction. I would most value the posting of someone who has owned a late model DCX AND Honda minivan and who has no agenda.

    It does take some effort to find these boards but they are a valuable asset if we take the time to state accurate FACTS.
  • hayneldanhayneldan Posts: 657
    Here is an example of selective quoting from Odyssey owners.
    "Now here's what really makes me wonder why the DCX crowd isn't on here all upset. Here's how DCX and Honda owners think about there cars. So it's like overall satisfaction. Performance DGC 2/5 Ody 5/5 Comfort DGC 2/5 Ody 5/5 Features and Instrument DGC 2/5 Ody 5/5 Style DGC 3/5 Ody 4/5 Overall Appeal DGC-2/5 Ody 5/5. So why aren't the people complaining here??"

    The same J D Power ratings rated Initial Quality and the results are; Mechanical Quality DGC 4 Odyssey 4 (tie), Feature and Accessory Quality DGC 5 Odyssey 3, Body and Interior Quality DGC 3, Odyssey 2, Overall Quality DGC 4 Odyssey 2.
  • hayneldanhayneldan Posts: 657
    Did you see where I put in now heres what people THINK about there cars. It's like how much a person is satisfied with there cars!! Looks like there is alot to be said about what the people who buy a DGC think about thre van. 2/5 compared to 5/5 wouldn't you think they'd be all over this forum??

    Do you really think a Odyssey owner would rate his or her van lower after having paid a premium price for it over DCX vans. Socalwad excepted because he's convinced he got the best price on his first Odyssey after buying 3 or 4? DCX vans.
  • socalawdsocalawd Posts: 542
    Do you really think a Odyssey owner would rate his or her van lower after having paid a premium price for it over DCX vans. Socalwad excepted because he's convinced he got the best price on his first Odyssey after buying 3 or 4? DCX vans.

    I have only purchased 1 Dodge caravan(2001) I did it purely for the price, had 2 as company cars(1990,1993), and one given to me (1986) when we were too poor to buy anything(about 8 years ago). I bought the van I wanted, don't care if you think I paid too much. The most important thing is that whomever buys is happy with thier purchase. That will make you keep the car longer and save yourself much headache in the future. I think driving them both and then looking at the features you want/need and can afford is a excellant way to find a car you can live with.

    I really did like the Ody's comfort, safety features, VCM, VSC, offset crash test ratings, Lockable in floor storage, side shades for the twins, ride, 9 inch DVD screen, looks, braking, and overall smile factor of getting this van for my wife and kids. So I guess you should guess again. Or maybe not.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    Do you really think a Odyssey owner would rate his or her van lower after having paid a premium price for it over DCX vans.

    You hit the head on the nail here!!!! Ody buyers certainly wouldn't knock their Minivans after a premium price. If you paid $30k-$40k for a MINIVAN, you'd be giving it rave reviews no matter what problems you have with it.

    The "Problems" areas on here is amazing when you look at the number of postings vs numbers sold for each minivan. You have at least 2:1 more DCX vans sold, but a fraction of the postings on here. For most people, a minivan is strictly an appliance, point A-B tool (especially a DCX).....not worth getting too excited about unless you paid a lot more for your's or have a problem. If you browse thru DCX Problems, many are like "I have 130k miles on my 1996 Caravan and my thingy is acting up". Very few late models problems for DCX. Even the latest CR buyer guide rates them identically even.
  • socalawdsocalawd Posts: 542
    The "Problems" areas on here is amazing when you look at the number of postings vs numbers sold for each minivan. You have at least 2:1 more DCX vans sold, but a fraction of the postings on here.

    Well there he is Mr. look at these forums.How ya doing today??

    For most people, a minivan is strictly an appliance, point A-B tool (especially a DCX).....not worth getting too excited about unless you paid a lot more for your's or have a problem.

    Well you seem pretty excited sometimes!! Did ya pay too much or do ya have a problem??

    If you browse thru DCX Problems, many are like "I have 130k miles on my 1996 Caravan and my thingy is acting up".

    Well ya still have the forum if all else looks bleak I would think that will never change! I only know about 20 DCX members on here(small gene pool) and not a one of them would dare post there!! Some guy had a check engine light on in the Honda forum and like 10 differant people posted. On the DCX board ya have to wait until someone shows up. Heck just the other day I was the first person to respond to a guy with suspention noise after 3 days. I hope it was the sway bar bushings(common 50K issue on the DCX vans) and not the whole rack and pinion like on the 2005 DCX owner that replyed

    Very few late models problems for DCX. Even the latest CR buyer guide rates them identically even.

    Look now we like CR and will quote it!! EVEN!!

    You hit the head on the nail here!!!! Ody buyers certainly wouldn't knock their Minivans after a premium price. If you paid $30k-$40k for a MINIVAN, you'd be giving it rave reviews no matter what problems you have with it.

    No you guessed wrong again. How about 2005 cars would ya think the appeal scores on the BMW 5 series would be high, how about the Mercedes E-Class?? Guess what they both scored lower than the Ody. Mostly 3's. You can get a EX for around 26K a LX for 23K, the average car price is 30K(mine was 29.5K EXL with RES). It's really not very expensive for what ya get!! It's definitely not the car for the masses, but you could always buy a really old car and drive it until the wheels fall off. My dad does! 500 deductable and only liability. Now thats the way to save money! That guy got 270K(bought it with 95K in 1984 drove until it rusted to the ground) out of a 1979 mercury Zephyr wagon. I perfer to have something nice for about 10 years. To each their own. So if ya wanna save money dennis buying a new car wasn't the answer. You coulda got a used Ford Expedition with a tow package for about 10K less.
  • J D Power Initial Quality Advantage DCX.
    J D Power Appeal Ratings Advantage Odyssey (see post 4935).
    Consumers Report both average, tie (see post 4898).
    VSC ? same rollover rating for DCX without VSC.
    VCM ? Some (not all) Ody owners are not happy with mileage.
    Full Curtain side Airbags, Advantage Odyssey.
    Trade in value, Depending on your savings rate, Advantage Odyssey.
    Price paid, Advantage DCX
    Crash test ratings DCX and Honda Odyssey (tied) 5 stars for both vans, Driver ,Passenger, Front and Rear. 4 star rollover ratings for both.
    http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/testing/ncap/

    Looks like both of these vans are pretty equal except for price!
  • J D Power Initial Quality Advantage DCX.
    J D Power Appeal Ratings Advantage Odyssey (see post 4935).
    Consumers Report both average, tie (see post 4898).
    VSC ? same rollover rating for DCX without VSC.
    VCM ? Some (not all) Ody owners are not happy with mileage.
    Full Curtain side Airbags, Advantage Odyssey.
    Trade in value, Depending on your savings rate, Advantage Odyssey.
    Price paid, Advantage DCX
    Crash test ratings DCX and Honda Odyssey (tied) 5 stars for both vans, Driver ,Passenger, Front and Rear. 4 star rollover ratings for both.
    http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/testing/ncap/

    Looks like both of these vans are pretty equal except for price!
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    I hope it was the sway bar bushings(common 50K issue on the DCX vans) and not the whole rack and pinion like on the 2005 DCX owner that replyed

    Well lets be grateful he didn't need his engine or tranny replaced, like I've seen a few Honda owners talking about!!!

    How about 2005 cars would ya think the appeal scores on the BMW 5 series would be high, how about the Mercedes E-Class??

    Maybe, just maybe people who are spending upwards of $60k for a vehicle have much higher expectations than Minivan buyers?

    You can get a EX for around 26K a LX for 23K, the average car price is 30K

    True!! if you fly to North Dakota to purchase it, or send out a million emails looking for those prices. Begging some dealers to knock off a grand, then turn around and charge you a grand for mudflaps and paint protector. Even your own little fluff piece last week noted Odys selling for sticker.

    I'm waiting for the new X5 to come out next year...preferring German styling, handling and engineering over anything else.
This discussion has been closed.