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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

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  • socalawdsocalawd Posts: 542
    Long before the 2006 models arrived at West Valley Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep and Doug Smith. Meanwhile, there were 2005 Honda Odysseys still sitting on the lots of Willey Honda, Ken Garff Honda, and Larry H. Miller Honda.
    None of these Honda dealers would put a person on a waiting list without a $ 500 NON-refundable deposit. When asked why, the Honda salesman replied that if it were refundable, someone may order one at every Honda dealer and then take the first one that came in LEAVING the other Honda dealers with an un-wanted vehicle."


    Ok I checked Inventory Willey Honda has 0 2005 Honda Odyssey's. Kan Garff has 2 2005's and Larry Miller has 0 2005 Odyssey's. But they have plenty of 2006's. Now Doug smith had 0 2005 Grand Caravan's Menlove has 3 2005 Grand Caravan, and Hinkley has 1 a silver SXT 2005 Grand caravans. I talked to a sales guy at Menlove 1-800-447-2098 and he said all 3 are there!! So at these dealers in SLC(I got them by just putting Dodge/invertory and Honda/inventory these are the first 3 that came up) it's Dodge 4 Grand caravan leftovers and Honda 2 (all model Odyssey's)leftovers. I know I should look for T&C and SWB caravans so this is only a partial info post. I know that dennis and dan would have sniffed the one out as a false claim. Since they only worry about the truth! :P
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    I am writing about the inventory in AUGUST 2005 when I was actively looking. ;)

    I will probably buy the Toyota Sienna LE at Mark Miller Toyota when I get my next vehicle. Mark Miller has the best inventory of Sienna and does not load them all up with overpriced Toyota options as does Menlove Toyota and Larry H. Miller Toyota. Most Toyota owners are much more pleasant than most of the Honda owners...altho I have met nice salesmen at Willey Honda, Ken Garff Honda, Ken Garff West Valley Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep, and Doug Smith Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge.

    Doug Smith caters to buyers of USED Grand Caravans and sold 3 or 4 USED 2005 GC for every NEW 2005 GC. :confuse:

    I would NOT buy either a Dodge or Toyota from Menlove Dodge/Toyota nor any vehicle from one of the dozens of Larry H. Miller dealerships....even though Larry H. Miller himself is a very nice guy. :sick:
  • artgpoartgpo Posts: 483
    I like to look at the Chrysler web site, in particular the local dealer inventory. I read the Magneson-Moss sticker to see what is offered as standard equipment. My point is that in September, there were dozens of 2005 T&C vans languishing on Metroplex area dealers lots. In contrast, when I first looked at the Odyssey I was hoping for a deal on a 2005. My first trip to a Honda dealer in late August yielded five 2006 models and no 2005s. They were gone by mid-August.

    In fairness, I drove a Sienna XLE in June. I came back to that same dealer in September and it was still there. By its Texas state inspection sticker it had been at the dealer since March. Guess what? It is still there along with another XLE but that one has been there since February!

    I like my Odyssey. As I said before I have owned a Vanagon, Nissan Van, Trans Sport, Grand Caravan, Windstar, Sihouette and now the 06 Odyssey. The VW, Nissan and Dodge were junk. The rest were very reliable.

    I do not think people are stupid for buying another brand different from mine. We all make choices based on our personal taste. I am certain the DCX folks are just crazy about their machines. My like for the Odyssey could change upon a major problem cropping up. All I can say in conclusion is that if any one of you DCX troops would like to do a side by side quality comparison you have a deal!

    Can't we all just get along?
  • socalawdsocalawd Posts: 542
    When you realize the Odyssey is a totally new design with state of the art features and dealers can't charge above MRSP

    I thought they all charged above MSRP. :confuse: At least that what I always hear you pushing when you compare costs.

    and they're not gaining much market share???

    And they aren't discounting like crazy. Looks like the T&C has slowed down. Not +87% but +31% for the year to date oh no. Also the Dodge brand is down -4% year to date. Do we really want market share?? No I think they like the good margins!!

    Whereas the Dodge is a more mature design?

    Your right a little old for my tastes!!
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    I have made close comparison of Odd EX, GC SXT, and Sienna LE. Odd EX has most comfortable 2nd row seats but costs too much in comparison. GC SXT has separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger AND complete overhead console - less the Instant Economy reading of my 02 T&C LX and costs the least of the 3. Sienna LE has THE MOST Attractive instrument cluster, most attractive interior, most cargo space behind 3rd row seat, and the most responsive engine/transmission and the dealer has the best inventory in the price range I would pay. ;)
  • artgpoartgpo Posts: 483
    Odyssey has automatic climate control for driver and front seat passenger and manual but separate climate control for the rear. Sienna XLE has automatic three zone climate control. The Honda had more get up and go than did the Sienna I drove back to back.
  • artgpoartgpo Posts: 483
    As a curiosity I went onto both Chrysler's and Toyota sites this morning to check on 2005 left over stock. I found 12 T&C models at the first four dealers I researched. There are 135 2005 Siennas in stock around this area. 2005 Odyssey = 0.

    No editiorial comment.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    In the Big Picture, does it really matter? In the end if DCX builds 500,000 Minivan, they'll find homes eventually. Same for Honda or Toyota or GM. We'll see in few months the final 2005 figures and then the editorials can start.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,231
    I'm not sure what sales/inventory has to do with which van is better for someone trying to make a decision. I personally prefer to drive something that's not on every corner, so high sales volume is a negative to me ;)

    We're talking two very different companys. Honda (and Toyota) both slowly grow their sales. Their production methods allow them to do this which ensures maximium profits. Was the Accord/Camry the top sellers when they were first introduced? No way. After 10-15 years it's a competely different story.

    Inventory is carefully controlled by Honda. They don't even normally offer incentives to move out the last because they space their production. They're quite effective at it, even on the high volume models you'll see very little year-end incentives. There's $3,000 rebate on the T&C right now and quite a few to pick from. I've been shopping for a new truck ($5500 rebate plus I can get employee price isn't bad...) and there are at least 3-5 2005 vans at the Dodge dealers I've been searching inventory on. There's not even any marketing support for the Honda dealers to push the Odys so I'd have to say the '05 inventory is pretty much gone.

    But the point is, Honda will sell more for a greater profit while DC will produce whatever number covers their fixed overhead and then push incentives to move them. It's a problem all the domestics are stuck with, called excess capacity.
  • artgpoartgpo Posts: 483
    I was not implying anything. My point was to refute an earlier message claiming all the 2005 DCX minivans flew off dealers lots during the big summer sales. Obviously not.

    Who cares what van you drive? You do. It is not my business nor anyone else on here. Most people come here looking for first hand owner information to help them make an informed choice. Sniping at each other does not help anyone.
  • Crash test ratings DCX and Honda Odyssey (tied) 5 stars for both vans, Driver ,Passenger, Front and Rear. 4 star rollover ratings for both.

    Whats the offset for the DCX they have it listed as marginial. While the Ody is Good and a best bet. (quoting a 2005 Odyssey vs a 2001 Caravan)

    Are you reading the same Test as I am? I did not mention the driver door coming open on the Ody http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/testing/ncap/ (They tested 2005-2006 both models)

    Type in your own Model Year to get the data.

    Still Mr Truth, Semper FI!
  • aaron_taaron_t Posts: 301
    My point was to refute an earlier message claiming all the 2005 DCX minivans flew off dealers lots during the big summer sales. Obviously not.


    July was a huge month for DCX vans:
    Sales current month, prior year, Percentage YoY
    T&C 21,655 11,558 95%
    Caravan 23,969 18,284 36%

    Aug & Sep were down YoY by about 15 & 20%.

    Also, 2006 models were not on the lots until the last week of September, later than most years and later than Ody & Sienna.
  • socalawdsocalawd Posts: 542
    Freedom IS a priceless thing!


    Agreed

    I'm ready to start talking about the vans pros and cons. Anybody else interested??
  • I was doing some research on Kelley Blue Book website, comparing our 01 DCG EX and the 01 Ody EX and came up with some interesting numbers. Now I know we can all agree that the Ody has the best trade in value of the two and the DGC is the best value for the money used, since it depreciates so fast. Well, here's what I came up with.

    BRAND NEW AT ORIGINAL MSRP: 01 Ody EX cost $26,400 and 01 DGC EX cost $26,070. (You save $330 on the DGC over the Ody.)

    BLUE BOOK RETAIL REPORT both vans with 66K:01 Ody EX $17,460 and 01 DGC EX $14,220. (You save $3,240 on the DGC over the Ody.)

    BLUE BOOK TRADE IN VALUE (GOOD) both vans with 66K: 01 Ody EX $11,785 and 01 DGC EX $8,955. (You gain $2,830 at trade in on the Ody then the DGC.)

    BLUE BOOK TRADE IN VALUE (EXCELLENT) both vans with 66K 01 Ody EX $12,600 and 01 DGC EX $ 9,625. (You gain $2,975 at trade in on the Ody then the DGC.)

    Now when you take into account the price paid for both vans at original MSRP and how much you would pay buying each one used with the same mileage. The 01 Ody EX price difference is $8,940 and the 01 DGC EX is $11,850 that you lose in value on each. But you gain $2,910 if buying the DGC over the ODY.

    When you take the $2,830 that you gain on a (GOOD) trade in for the Ody, against the $2,910 that you gain from buying the DGC. The difference that you really gain in value is only $80 on the Ody.

    When you take the $2,975 that you gain on a (EXCELLENT) trade in for the ody, against the $2,910 that you gain from buying the DGC. The difference that you really gain is only $65 on the Ody.

    When you compare the (EXCELLENT) trade in value to the price paid retail for each with 66K: The 01 Ody EX is $4,860 and the 01 DGC EX is $4,595. (The difference is only $265).

    When you compare the (GOOD) trade in value to the price paid retail for each with 66K: The 01 Ody EX is $5,675 and the 01 DGC EX is $5,265. (The difference is only $410)

    So with comparing the two mini vans and how they retain value, you are only gaining about $80 when doing a trade in on the Ody. Which isn't much. Also, for the DGC they did not have a selection for the traction control or power liftgate.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    This is a little too complicated without having coffee in me this early! I'll note that you don't consider actual transaction price. Back in 2001, many Odys were selling at or above MSRP while DGC were discounting. Factor in cost of money over 4-5 years, vs banking the difference, and the DGC looks much better I bet.
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    Good post. Another way to look at depreciation, if one is the buyer, is to look at a quality vehicle and how much it depreciates.That is, high depreciation is a good thing. There are many very good vehicles on the market that are rated high in quality and reliability that depreciate much faster than others.This is where the good bargain and values are.

    Upon my initial search for purchasing a minivan, I was looking into getting a good preowned Ody or Sienna (based solely on reviews) Used 2001-2002 Odys were going for $20,000 back in July 2004. For only a couple thousand more I could buy new....which I did.

    So, a preowned DGC will be much better value (pricewise and perhaps quality/feature wise if one prefers the DGC) than a preowned Ody.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,652
    The trouble is, the DGC's won't bring "book" values! They are always "back of book" cars. When we call for buy bids there aren't many people who want them unless they can buy them for a thousand or more below what the books say.

    This is true with a lot of cars, especially domestics and SUV's that use a lot of gas.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    Neither will Honda Odysseys or Honda Accords. :sick:
    The dealers always pay much less than book on any trade-in. :cry:
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,652
    I guess you are in the business and know more than I do.

    Actually, we will sometimes pay over book for the right cars.
  • kfdmedkfdmed Posts: 130
    I dont think you have to be in the business to know real world trade in values. It has been my experience that if you use Kelley blue book and average the "good condition" and "poor condition" values you will get a really close value of your trade in. In turn the dealer will put it on the lot for 4-5K more than the they paid and probably sell it for 2-3K more than the trade value. That is why it is almost always better to sell it yourself and pocket an extra 1-2k. When I bought my T&C they were going to give me $6750 for 2002 Alero with 15K miles which matched Kelley blue book "good condition" value. Spent $35 bucks on a newspaper add and sold it in 3 days for $9200.00.
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    "almost always better to sell it yourself..."

    Couldn't agree more kfdmed. Most people who trade in say they don't like the hassle or liability of selling it themselves. But, there is very little in either.

    I don't understand people who will nickel and dime a deal to the last penny...then take a 1,2 or 3k loss on their trade in(over what they could have gotten via private sale). But, most people on these boards seem to trade in. :confuse:
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,652
    for a lot of busy people,selling their own car is too much of a pain. Yes, you can often get more, but the PITA factor can negate this. In addition, there is risk involved.

    In states like mine where there is a sales tax credit, that can make a big difference. Last week I had a guy who wanted 10,000 for his trade in. We appraised it for 9000.00 so he was simply going to sell it himself and "save" 1000.00.

    When I pointed out he would be saving over 800.00 in sales tax if he traded it in, he quickly changed his mind.

    Other times, I will suggest to my customers that they probably should try to sell their trade on their own. These are cars we don't want and I know the wholesalers don't want. Chrysler products are pretty high on that list.
  • socalawdsocalawd Posts: 542
    don't understand people who will nickel and dime a deal to the last penny...then take a 1,2 or 3k loss on their trade in(over what they could have gotten via private sale). But, most people on these boards seem to trade in.

    I tried to sell my 2001 Caravan Se V6 50K miles for a month I offer it all the way down to 5500.00(average blue book) dollars. It didn't have alot of options so, the interest wasn't good. And my wife hated all the calls and no offers.I got fed up!! I traded it in for I think 4800.00. Guy was like 4000.00 is max I have 2 on the lot I can't sell. Gave him my bottom line price and said I was only going back with one car.
  • nwngnwng Posts: 664
    problem is, you are competing with avis, enteprise, dollar.. who dumps thousands of 1-2 yr old caravans every year back into the market.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,652
    Yes, that's another reason. That even affects Camrys and Corollas. I hope Honda never starts selling to the rental co's.
  • All,

    I am trying to buy a Grand Caravan SXT here in IN. I read from other messages on this forum that Dodge still has a $5000 rebate although when I go to dodge.com all that I see they are offering currently is $2,500 rebate and $1,000 for thru the end of November. I've been dealing with a sales person who is offering $22,500 for the van which he says is about $100 less than inventory cost (with the rebate). Of course I made an offer of $19,500 which they thought I was crazy. Maybe I am crazy.. but I know there is a mark up on new vehicles.

    Can someone here point me exactly where I need to go, what site to get this $5,000 rebate that I'm sure they aren't going to tell me about? I'm looking at a base Grand Caravan SXT with Stow-n-Go with Power Adjustable Pedals and that's it. Any suggestions on what I can offer reasonably and get it from them. I am in no hurry to buy so I can play the game.

    I appreciate any help anyone can give on this subject. Thank you!
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    Yes...When friends try to trade Honda Accords in on a new Accord and are offered MUCH less than the "trade-in". :sick:
    One of my best friends is now driving a 2005 Toyota Camry because the Honda dealer would not give anything near "trade-in". That is after he had purchased 2 Honda Accords (a 2001 and the 2002 he got when the 2001 got totalled) from the same dealership.
    Everyone who has read in the Town Hall knows that Honda salesman are extremely biased in their postings. ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    After trading a dozen cars with Neil Bonnett Honda (you can see their website if you like, its neilbonnetthonda.com) we have always been offered bluebook trade-in value on our cars. Sometimes it is "good", others, "excellent", depending on the condition of the car. We are the type of people who park way out in a parking lot to avoid door dings, and dont go to the car wash...hand wash only. Our salesman knows this, and knows we are gentle to our cars, and treats us accordingly.

    When my father traded in his Chrysler Sebring Convertible, neil bonnett broke their record of giving us proper trade-in value. We were offered ( i believe ) 2500 less than the book said it was worth.

    This is one experience, different from your own. Just like yours, hans. Different dealer, different folks, different customer.
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    Yes, there are exceptions. But, almost always (the key word being almost) it will be better to sell it yourself.
    Your situation wasn't to bad. Say you suffer thru it a couple more weeks and get around 5k...that's only a couple hundred dollars or so you wouldn't be getting from the dealer to take your headache away....err trade in.

    I had an old 94 Buick Century Wagon...dealership offered $1,300. No way. A few aggravateing moments when people who made an apt. to come look at it didn't show up. But, all in all it wasn't much problem at all and I sold it for $1,900.
  • socalawdsocalawd Posts: 542
    I am trying to buy a Grand Caravan SXT here in IN. I read from other messages on this forum that Dodge still has a $5000 rebate although when I go to dodge.com all that I see they are offering currently is $2,500 rebate and $1,000 for thru the end of November. I've been dealing with a sales person who is offering $22,500 for the van which he says is about $100 less than inventory cost (with the rebate). Of course I made an offer of $19,500 which they thought I was crazy. Maybe I am crazy.. but I know there is a mark up on new vehicles.

    Ok I've also been told many times that you can go on the Dodge site and get EP+ on any 2006 DCX van. Well all I see is the 2500.00 dollar rebate I haven;t got any help when I asked if EP was discontinues for 2006! Maybe cause I posted in the Dodge prices paid and buying experience. That said, I like to help when I can so if your heart is set of a Dodge GC SXT here are the prices to start with Edmunds TMV=$23,992 and carsdirect= $24,587 The in voice on that van is $25,691 minus the $2500 rebate makes it 23,191. So your gettting the van for 700.00 less than invoice then the rebate. Sounds pretty SWEET(sorry I still get the Dodge magizine)to me!! Now if it's a 2005 leftover still sounds pretty good. But if you think your crazy you should hang out on this forum for about a week.
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