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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

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Comments

  • socalawdsocalawd Posts: 542
    General, many Domeestic ratings saw an increase, the Jananese in particular lost HP. There's many articles to this effect. I believe the DCX minivans went down due to exhaust routing i.e..stow n go

    Here's the info I have!! Not stow and go just fudgeing

    he 3.8-liter V6 that comes on Touring and Limited models is rated at 205 horsepower and 240 pound-feet of torque. Both numbers are down slightly for '06, from 215 and 245 last year, but it isn't the engine that's changed, only the way that horsepower and torque are measured. The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) recently revised its test procedures, and the manufacturers who adopted the new procedures this year are stuck with smaller power figures; manufacturers who haven't switched will likely feel this pain next year. So keep this in mind if comparing with other manufacturers. What's important to remember is that the engine itself is as strong as ever, even though its strength is now measured more conservatively.

    e 3.8-liter is considerably more powerful than the 3.3-liter V6 that comes on base and LX models, whose ratings of 180 horsepower and 210 pound-feet haven't changed (because it isn't using the new measuring system).

    If it was stow and go it would have changed last year. Nice try!!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    So, you are telling me, with this post, that the top gear ratios are exactly the same from the Dodge versus the Honda? Final drive doesn't mean squat, the total value of the ratios is what matters (combined final drive with individual gear ratio.

    Here, perhaps an example will help you understand.

    A Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Limited has a final drive ratio of 3.73. This is nearly double that (by your logic, driving up the rpms incrementally so). Yet, at 112 mph the vehicle is only pulling 3300 rpms; meaning that 60 mph puts it at about 1750 rpms.

    Final drive only matters when measured in combination with other gear ratios.

    Geez, I learned that playing Gran Turismo when I was eleven.
  • nwngnwng Posts: 664
    regarding the vsc, I guess not too many posters drive in the New England area....

    If I did a 360 on a slick street around where I live, even at very slow speeds I will be either ended up in someone's front lawn or hit a few parked cars before i can stop
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "...And refuse to believe a later article comparing all 2005 models in Motor Trend with instrumented handling results."

    From the Motor Trend article:

    "Braking tests showed the Caravan to have the longest stopping distances and the least roadholding ability of the three."

    Hmmmm, least roadholding ability....

    The instrumented tests you quote were for RIDE COMFORT. I wouldn't have believed it possible that someone could confuse this with handling, but apparently I was wrong. Typically, the vehicles with the best ride comfort (ie. pillowy, soft, floaty) have the worst handling traits (ie. responsiveness, steering feel, roadhandling, etc.).

    You can crow (and for good reason) about the RIDE COMFORT of the DCX vans. But please don't confuse RIDE COMFORT with handling prowess. Is the Dodge a good cruiser? Sure, the test results indicate it is downright cushy. Like driving my favorite LazyBoy. But that doesn't equate to handling.

    For example, the instrumented HANDLING results indicate the Dodge had the longest stopping distance, the slowest time through the slalom, the lowest lateral acceleration, and the slowest speed through the figure-8.
  • hayneldanhayneldan Posts: 657
    Was the subject in question cornering, slalom, and brakeing, or floaty boaty ride? Are you changing the subject?
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "Was the subject in question cornering, slalom, and brakeing, or floaty boaty ride? Are you changing the subject?"

    :confuse:

    From your post #6198:

    "You Quote "Car and Driver" where it compares a 2004 Odyssey to a 2005 DGC, where handling is concerned (OPIONION).And refuse to believe a later article comparing all 2005 models in Motor Trend with instrumented handling results."

    Hmmm, sure seems as though you are trying to say that the C&D test offered only a subjective opinion regarding the poor handling of the DCX vans and that the Motor Trend test gave objective instrumented handling results. You've also posted previously these 'handling' results from the Motor Trend tests indicating that the DCX van had the best 'handling'.

    All I'm trying to point out to you is that the results which you are interpreting as 'handling' are in fact Ride Comfort stats; NOT 'handling' stats. I then went on to point out that in the SAME Motor Trend test which you were quoting, that the DCX van actually had the WORST handling, as indicated by the instrumented testing.

    Not changing the subject; simply trying to point out that there is a huge difference between 'ride comfort' and 'handling'. In the Motor Trend article, the Dodge scored the highest in ride comfort and the Odyssey the lowest. Also, the Dodge scored the lowest in handling, and the Odyssey the highest.

    No one (that I'm aware of) has tried to claim that the Ody has superior ride comfort (which I personally equate to cushy). However, you WERE attempting to claim that the Dodge had superior HANDLING; and you used the Motor Trend article as your proof.
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    "I've done a 360 spin...."

    I would say in that situation, and others described by other members, the driver was traveling to fast for road conditions. Like dennistic said...the driver is the most important saftey feature. Some people with VSC and SUV owners are often lulled into a false sense of security with their vehilces. They will push their vehicles past its limits...then end up in a ditch or having severely injured someone.

    That said, I would choose VSC on my next vehilce if it were available. A little extra insurance couldn't hurt.

    I wouldn't worry so much about skids with VSC. I would mainly be concerned with how it would perform going 65mph down an expressway and having to make a sharp swerve to avoid a hippopotumus or other heavy object that may have fallen out of a truck. Really though, I was behind a young driver in a small sedan going about 65mph this past summer. He swerved suddenly...maybe 20 degrees...almost flipped the thing.(went up on 2 wheels) Another degree or two turn in the steering wheel, overinflated tires, a fatter person on the left side of his car...could have easily killed himself and all passengers onboard.
  • hayneldanhayneldan Posts: 657
    As I pointed out in an earlier post if you want to take on ramps with speed or slalom figure 8's, opt for the Trailer towing package on the DGC which provides, heavy duty suspension, load leveling rear shocks, trans cooler, heavy duty radiator, battery, and a wiring harness. for about $600 list. Try putting thos on an Ody for $600 Using Motor Trend's price as tested (MSRP) That puts the DGC at $33095 and the Ody at $35210 If you don't care about the fastest cornering or taking your minivan on a slalom course, but want a smooth highway ride at 70 mph which MT tested the minivans at in accordance with ISO 2631, opt for the DGC.This whole discussion was started by macava who used the term floaty boaty ride.
  • hayneldanhayneldan Posts: 657
    Have you written your letter to Motor Trend yet? Incidentally the test did have an 2005 Odyssey Touring with VCM and Pax tires.
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    On Ody and DCX???

    Also, has a meteor struck the earth and I'm the only survivor? Where's everybody at? I haven't seen a posting anywhere on the entire Edmunds site in 2 days.
  • kfdmedkfdmed Posts: 130
    I tried posting last night with no luck.
  • socalawdsocalawd Posts: 542
    I would say in that situation, and others described by other members, the driver was traveling to fast for road conditions. Like dennistic said...the driver is the most important saftey feature. Some people with VSC and SUV owners are often lulled into a false sense of security with their vehilces. They will push their vehicles past its limits...then end up in a ditch or having severely injured someone.

    Well they did studies of cars with and without ESC. The SUV's with ESC about 50% less likely to get into a single vehicle crash then the ones without ESC. I don't drive my cars any differently. It seems that it would do very well in makeing a bad driver safer. The sweet spot for ESC is 20-80 mph less than 20 and it's rarely needed and more than 80 it may be too late. The people we should be worried about are the ones who think they drive great and can't get into a accident. Most are just haveing delutions of granduer. ;)

    link title
  • socalawdsocalawd Posts: 542
    RPM's at 60 now thats a who cares thing to me. What I thought was funny was that you think less motion means better handling. Also you didn't state in that article the Ody had much better braking, road handling, passing times, 0-60 times and MPG. Well I guess we see what we want.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    PAX tires, VCM, poor stereo? Buy an Odyssey.

    Stow'N Go, quality stereo at an affordable price? Buy a DC minivan. ;)
  • socalawdsocalawd Posts: 542
    PAX tires, VCM, poor stereo? Buy an Odyssey.

    ESC, standard side airbags, comfort and so much more. Only the touring has PAX. VSC all published data says better MPG(CR, Motor trend,EPA)compared to 3.8L DCX. All done to scare. Don't be afriad!! ;)

    Stow'N Go, quality stereo at an affordable price? Buy a DC minivan.

    Oh that is about all. Of course this comes from someone who bought a toyota van instead! So what do you think?? A little Honda envy!! :cry:
  • socalawdsocalawd Posts: 542
    The MAJORITY of people do NOT want an Odyssey when the Sienna, Grand Caravan, Town & Country, and others are a better choice than an Oddysey

    Substance PLEASE!! More people buy Ody 174,300 in 2005 than Sienna 161,300. Sorry your propaganda is flaw. Yet again. Ody sales increased last year by a larger percent than DCX.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    So they have more fellow owners to chat with concerning the Odyssey that has THE MOST problems reported in the Town Hall. ;)
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    And so many problems with the Odysseys that there are many Odyssey problem forums that are kept very busy.
  • hayneldanhayneldan Posts: 657
    Please re read posts 6155 6158 and 6159 Please indicte where I have made a false claim.If you quote something it should have some basis in reality. My post acknowledged that the magazine article rated Odyssey as Fist in the comparo. The article ( not me ) stated the RPM at 60 MPH. The ride statistics quoted were instrumented and tested at 70 MPH. I merely pointed it out. Engineering is an EXACT science opposed to meterology, which is a guess.My cousin's son is a working meterologist in the midwest and he confirms this. I had several Field Service Engineers work for me and they always thought they knew more than they actually did. Acceleration is contributed to by gear ratios, any Hot rodder Knows that. Hat's off to Honda for getting the top acceleration of minivans and good mileage, but again it is atributed to gearing which means more Rpms at any given speed. I was drag racing before Graduate was born, And am also an engineer so I have more than a little knowledge on the subjects discussed here.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Ok, so, are you poking fun at your age with this?...not quite sure what youre doing here other than building your ego. Congrats, you're an engineer. (Applause ensues)

    Thank you for building my case from my previous post (6212, just in case you missed it, since you didn't respond to those who countered your point with our own.)
  • socalawdsocalawd Posts: 542
    And so many problems with the Odysseys that there are many Odyssey problem forums that are kept very busy

    It's all relative look at this forum it gets like 20 posts a day yet the DCX vs Toyota forum has 43 in 4 months. The sales are about the same! So what could it be?? It's the people involved. About 8 poster post 90% in this forum not really a great demographic. :P
    Now let's look at DCX sales, so many DCX used as fleet, rental and loaners cars at dealers. For inexpensive it's good. Took a look at 2005 used cars from a nationwide online car inventory search. All 2005 Ody's 296 Total! 2005 Dodge GC 8560 Chrysler T&C 4610 Dodge SWB caravan 1666. Wow that almost 15K vehicles(2.3 times the sales/57 times the amount selling used) ready to bring your resale value down. DCX vans americas most recycled!! Ody americas most wanted!!!
  • socalawdsocalawd Posts: 542
    I had several Field Service Engineers work for me and they always thought they knew more than they actually did.

    A very human trait. Of course saying you know more than other people is a human trait too. Not sure what your point is :confuse:

    Acceleration is contributed to by gear ratios, any Hot rodder Knows that. Hat's off to Honda for getting the top acceleration of minivans and good mileage, but again it is atributed to gearing which means more Rpms at any given speed.

    The Ody also has more HP and Torque!! I'm not a Hot Rodder or care to be!! I just want a safe car for my family with ESC and standard side airbags and great crash test ratings/ good handling to avoid problems!

    And am also an engineer so I have more than a little knowledge on the subjects discussed here.

    I deal with engineers every day! I'll trade you 8 from Cal Poly SLO for a loaf of bread!!! Any takers?? :P
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "As I pointed out in an earlier post if you want to take on ramps with speed or slalom figure 8's, opt for the Trailer towing package on the DGC which provides, heavy duty suspension, load leveling rear shocks, trans cooler, heavy duty radiator, battery, and a wiring harness. for about $600 list."

    First, as an engineer, you should (?) know that simply tacking on a 'heavy duty' suspension, load leveling shocks, yada yada yada, will not necessarily help a thing with regard to handling. Particularly when the van is not towing.

    A 'trailor towing package' will help the van with.......towing a trailor. That's it. MIGHT it help with the handling on the DCX vans? Possibly. I can tell you for CERTAIN that it will decrease the ride comfort.

    If the DCX engineers could improve the handling with no sacrifice to ride comfort by simply substituting the 'heavy duty suspension' and load leveling rear shocks, don't you think they would do it?

    BTW - my discipline is in Civil (registered PE with the State of Texas). Just out of curiosity, what's yours?
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    It's all relative look at this forum it gets like 20 posts a day yet the DCX vs Toyota forum has 43 in 4 months.

    FYI - The posters on the "Ody problems" aren't the usual 8 posters here. That is a great demographic sampling.

    Toyota owners don't have to bash others to build themselves up. Hence a more civil tone on the DCX vs Toyota forum and less posting, no subtle bashing "well I hope you can live with your DCX van, because I couldn't" or outright bashing like "DCX vans are junk".

    BTW - please post your "nationwide online inventory" site. As Reagan the great once said of the Russians "Trust but Verify".

    Wow that almost 15K vehicles(2.3 times the sales/57 times the amount selling used) ready to bring your resale value down.

    It also brings down the selling prices of new vans, so when you look at the % of retained value vs. actual purchased price...it's about even. You may want to check your math....to quibble, it's 44 times, IF the numbers and data you're using are correct.

    DCX vans americas most recycled!! Ody americas most wanted!!!

    If Odys were truly America's most wanted, wouldn't they also be best selling regardless? A Toyota Camry owner can make that statement because they are the number one selling car in the US. If Odys were that wanted, wouldn't they be selling at or above MSRP like 5 years ago? Oh wait! they're also the most researched on Edmunds....that proves absolutely nothing since we don't know what people are researching..i.e.. prices, quality history, color choices or WHAT? It's your opinion that Ody is America's most wanted, and perhaps the editors here...wooo hooo!!!
  • socalawdsocalawd Posts: 542
    FYI - The posters on the "Ody problems" aren't the usual 8 posters here. That is a great demographic sampling.


    So is the prices paid. More posts in a week then ever in the DCX prices paid. Which mean what?? people don't buy DCX??

    Toyota owners don't have to bash others to build themselves up. Hence a more civil tone on the DCX vs Toyota forum and less posting, no subtle bashing "well I hope you can live with your DCX van, because I couldn't" or outright bashing like "DCX vans are junk".

    Civil tone. Like Toyota owners are different then Honda owners, they are about the same! Yep Honda owners just are a different species. I might not buy another Honda so when I buy a Toyota will I be civil! It's a strange you can group people like that. Talk about opinion!


    BTW - please post your "nationwide online inventory" site. As Reagan the great once said of the Russians "Trust but Verify".

    As Reagan said when he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. I Don't recall!! No wait it's autotrader.com!!

    It's your opinion that Ody is America's most wanted, and perhaps the editors here...wooo hooo

    And the consumers most wanted!

    Oh wait! they're also the most researched on Edmunds....that proves absolutely nothing since we don't know what people are researching..i.e.. prices, quality history, color choices or WHAT?

    Hey thats the arguement I use for why there are so many postings on the problem forums. You have no idea how many hits you get here from differant van owners yet you continue to point to the Ody problem board. You would think it means more people are coming to this web site to research the Ody. So I would think more people posting problem etc. Now the DCX board without this forum you could close em down!!
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    So is the prices paid. More posts in a week then ever in the DCX prices paid. Which mean what?? people don't buy DCX??

    As noted many times, DCX's promotions and prices are very public. Most DCX buyers aren't scanning their state looking for a deal.

    I seem to recall many "I don't recall" from Hillary on missing billing records etc..many more than an 80 year old president.

    And the consumers most wanted! Your opinion but nothing to really back it up.

    Hey thats the arguement I use for why there are so many postings on the problem forums. The difference is....on the Ody problems areas, posters are very specific with their problems..all there in black & white. No one knows what people are "researching" about the Ody.

    Civil tone. Like Toyota owners are different then Honda owners, they are about the same! Yep Honda owners just are a different species. I might not buy another Honda so when I buy a Toyota will I be civil! It's a strange you can group people like that. Talk about opinion!

    Just look at the Postings for Toyota vs DCX, i'm not grouping just pointing out what I see. Honda owners must be different.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    Now let's look at DCX sales, so many DCX used as fleet, rental and loaners cars at dealers. For inexpensive it's good. Took a look at 2005 used cars from a nationwide online car inventory search. All 2005 Ody's 296 Total! 2005 Dodge GC 8560 Chrysler T&C 4610 Dodge SWB caravan 1666. Wow that almost 15K vehicles(2.3 times the sales/57 times the amount selling used) ready to bring your resale value down.

    Thanks!! just glancing thru some of the listings on Autotrader, I'm amazed at 2005 DCX GC SXT going for $20k with 25k miles on em. Would seem my Van is worth what I paid for it, and not shabby for others who didn't get my same deal.

    Today it's down to 29:1(from your high of 55).
  • hayneldanhayneldan Posts: 657
    Its TRAILER not trailor, and your point of trailer towing not necessarily helping with handling is incorrect. Your point of decreasing ride comfort is valid. DCX offers buyers a choice, hence the trailer pkg is an option. I have owned several cars and vans from many manufacturers both with and without "heavy duty suspension" I prefer the "heavy duty suspension" on any vehicle. My discipline is Mechanical Engineering.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Posts: 1,564
    Ody sales increased last year by a larger percent than DCX.

    Please stop bring up that same tired old statement that was refuted once before.

    Ody sales increased calendar year 2004-2005 by a smaller amount than Did the DC minivans. Thus despite healthy percentage increase in Odyssey sales, Honda at the same time LOST percentage market share!
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "Its TRAILER not trailor..."

    Yep. My mistake.

    "...and your point of trailer towing not necessarily helping with handling is incorrect."

    Ordinarily, I'd agree with you. Usually, installing stiffer springs/shocks (and some form of roll control) will result in better handling. And when talking about the DCX vans, you are probably correct. However, I HAVE seen many cases were installing ever stiffer springs/shocks have decreased the handling capacities. But since I'm talking about race car setups, my point was completely moot. I just don't want someone to think that one can ALWAYS improve handling by bolting on stiffer and stiffer and stiffer shocks/springs.

    Since I think we can agree that one way to improve the handling on the DCX vans is to install the 'trailer towing package' (even without knowing the spring rates of the stock suspension vs. the HD suspention), and I think we agree that this will result in some loss in ride comfort, the question becomes how would such a vehicle (which you've stated you prefer) compare to the Ody?

    Out of curiousity - do you have the trailer towing package on your van?
This discussion has been closed.