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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

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Comments

  • scoyle1scoyle1 Posts: 14
    I too was and remain very upset by D/C response to the fuel pump flange. If you read the D/C response to the IIHS' highway safety tests very carefully (as any lawyer must), they do not say that none of the 50 vehicles that D/C crashed had fuel leakage or that they did not have cracked fuel planges or fuel tanks. D/C says that they did not notice any fuel leakage. While seemingly minor, this is a big difference legally speaking. D/C did not indicate how many of the fuel flanges were cracked and or broken. Similarly, not all of D/C's crash tests would have been frontal/side impact crashes. Many would have been rear end tests, bumper tests, etc.

    IIHS did three tests. Two of the tests were done on the 2001 vehicles. The fuel plange leaked during the second of these two tests. This caused IIHS to look more closely at the first test, where hey discovered that the fuel plange was cracked. While it did not leak, the part was cracked. Only in the third test, a 2002 model with the redesigned part, did the fuel plange remain intact. So by my count, we only have all of the information available for two tests. In both of the tests the fuel plange was broken (100% failure rate), and in one of the tests, the fuel leaked (50% failure rate). While I am sure that the rate of failure would be much smaller than this (in fact, it probably is a very isolated event), the 2001 Chrysler/Dodge minivan's have been on the road for less than 1 year. If a vehicle had been involved in a crash that involved gasoline leakage and an injury, we may not have heard of it. Lawyers often get a gag order on cases that are pending, or settle cases early to avoid publicity. There simply is not enough time that has gone past for us to make a fully informed decision of the safety of the 2001 D/C minivans.

    Many have said that any vehicle could/would have a fuel leak with a 40 MPH crash. However, only two vehicles (not two minivans, but two vehicles period), had any sign of fuel leak. These were the D/C minivans and the Isuzu. No other cars had a fuel leak.

    That being said, when it comes to the health of my 22 month old daughter, nothing is worth the risk. Any of you who say that the risk is small, all I have to say is that any unneeded risk is too much. I had bought the 2001 Chrysler Town & Country Lxi. Luckily, I found a dealer who had a 30 day money back/no questions asked policy. I took advantage of that policy. I do think that the D/C vehicles drive better, look better, have nice amenities, etc., but my daughter is my #1 concern. She is alot better than comfortable seats, climate control, etc.

    As for you pessimists who think that I am over-reacting, look more closely into Chrysler's responses into safety concerns. In 1998, after years of fighting a recall of their safety belts on the Cirrus and Stratus, a US District court judge ordered a recall, resulting in 91,000 cars being recalled. When it comes to minivans, D/C's recall performance has also been abysmal. Remember the rear lift gates and the transmissions that shifted into drive without a foot on the brake? Both took years of lawsuits and news stories before they were corrected.

    I thought that the DaimlerBenz folks would "right the ship", but it seems as if it is business as usual at Dodge/Chrysler.

    My daughter and wife will be much safer (both according to IIHS and the NHTSA tests) in a Honda or a Toyota. I know where my money is going. -- For the safety of my family.

    Don't believe me, see the links below.

    www.freep.com /business/qcirrus5.htm
    www.autopedia.com /html/Recall_Chrysler032198.html
    www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ ce/html/0102.htm

    www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ ce/cecompoutc.asp

    www.nhtsa.dot.gov/hot/ rollover/rollover20010620.pdf
  • 4aodge4aodge Posts: 288
    hmmmmm haven't I read that response somewhere before?
  • pepe11pepe11 Posts: 41
    The people who think you are overreacting are not "pessimists" but rather optimists! You are the pessimist.
  • hayneldanhayneldan Posts: 657
    I remember that flap about the rear seat belts. I also remember on one newscast that Chrysler demonstrated that they lifted an unmodified Cirrus up with a crane by the seatbelts! no failure!
  • hayneldanhayneldan Posts: 657
    What do you suppose caused the fire in the 2000 Odyssey shown on copartfinder.com?
  • scoyle1scoyle1 Posts: 14
    So hayneldan and others. Do you refute that D/C has a history of not recalling vehicles? Look at the evidence, listen to Click and Clack, talk to anyone at CPSC. D/C is renown for refusing to admit their errors and faults. If there was no problem with the seatbelts on the Cirrus and the Stratus, then why did D/C lose twice in court? They lost the initial trial and on appeal. D/C didn't have to prove that the seatbelts were safe, CPSC had to prove that the seatbelts were unsafe. They not only proved their case twice, D/C wasn't able to overcome that proof. D/C received the largest fine up to that point ever levied against an automobile manufacturer.
  • 4aodge4aodge Posts: 288
    There is something that has been confusing me about you over the last few weeks. I've been reading one negative post after another of yours about Chrysler and it's past safety reccord and how terrible and dishonest they are as a car company. Soooo, that leads me to this question...why did you buy a DC minivan in the first place? I realize that you did not know about the 2001 DC minivan crash test until after you bought you car, but according to what your saying...DC has had a notorious reccord for poor safety in the past.

    You seem to love your family and your small daughter just as any good parrent would, so why would you ever even think of putting your loved ones in a vehicle made by a company that, according to you, has never been good with saftey in the first place? I'm getting mixed signals here and it's rather confusing...to me at least.

    I know I feel perfectly safe in our 2000 Chrysler Town & Country and would never even consider trading it in for a boxy, boaring, plain Honda Odyssey. With that said, Chrysler is not the only car company to be questioned on their past safety reccord. I'm sure you could dig up some pretty heavy dirt on just about every major car company out there, including the emaculate Honda Motors Company.

    As for Chrysler replacing the fuel part in its late 2001 model and 2002 minivans, it only seemed a logical step to prevent this entire media frenzy over a minor fuel leak in one of many simulated crashes from occuring again in next years crash test.

    -Adam
  • hayneldanhayneldan Posts: 657
    I am beginning to doubt Scoyle's credibility on really owning a 2001 DC minivan. Nobody with that much negativity about DC would hav bought one. Maybe he's talking about his woop-de-do Subaru?
  • scannerscanner Posts: 295
    I guess Scoyle1 isn't a lawyer, else he would know that Honda too "has a history of not recalling vehicles" and "is renown for refusing to admit their errors and faults".


    Seatbelt defects and fuel leaks included


    .

  • scannerscanner Posts: 295
    Is the same thing Honda said when its CRV rolled over during crash testing. Even Consumer Report's AKA The Rollover Advocate said the same thing (see CR May 1999, page 11).


    http://www.naplesnews.com/today/business/d222357a.htm

  • odd1odd1 Posts: 226
    Yes, a forty mile an hour crash will total a vehicle. It is supposed to on modern vehicles to absorb the energy of the crash. Everyone keeps saying it was only a couple ounces of fuel and how Chrysler didn't have it happen. No one has said anything about the wording of Chrysler's statement nor answered why they redesigned the part if it is a one time event that they cannot duplicate. But you refuse to think about the fact it could go the other way and ignite the fuel in the tank. Is this how owners of a pre July '01 D/Cs rationalize gambling with their families' lives? I know it is a very slim chance but is one you really want to take?

    I certainly hope that a through inspection of all fuel related parts becomes part of the IIHS test after this.

    Why are we getting so emotionally attached to the machines we drive and acting like the criticisms are personal attacks on our being? Can't this topic get back to poking fun at disappearing seats vs. triple zoned a/cs? Please Chrysler do the right thing and recall this part. I'd much rather be poking fun at somebody's quirky likes or peeves in a vehicle then writing about this.

    If this was a Honda, Ford, Toyota, etc. van with this defect I would feel the same way on this subject. I gave up the BWM as the daily ride and now drive a van strictly for my family's safety. Yes, it makes me feel damn macho every time I look in the rearview mirror and see my loved ones behind me in the mini-van.

    We bought vans for the safety of our families and now some want to rationalize away a safety risk. I know it is a small risk but we as consumers should not allow this attitude no matter what vehicle or manufacturer.
  • 4aodge4aodge Posts: 288
    Odd1, it is you and some of the other Honda Odyssey owners here who keep taking things to a personal level. How can this be? Odd1, when you speak as if people who buy 2001 DC minivans are GAMBLING with the safety of their families...it does take things to a personal level. Especially when you consider that the minor fuel leak occurance has only happened ONCE out of every crash test the 2001 DC minivans have ever been in.

    No, I am not just talking. This quote from odd1 is a perfect example of what I mean.

    "But you refuse to think about the fact it could go the other way and ignite the fuel in the tank. Is this how owners of a pre July '01 D/Cs rationalize gambling with their families' lives?"

    Now how in the hell do you expect people who have pre-July 2001 DC minivans NOT to take a remark like that personally??? You are saying that owners of these vans are WILLINGLY "gambling" with the safety of their own beloved families. If this is not a personal remark, than please tell me what is.

    -Adam
    2000 Chrysler Town & Country LX
  • drew_drew_ Posts: 3,382
    and lay off the personal attacks. The problem with the Internet is that you can never see someone's facial expressions and often more is read into what a message actually says. Please keep this in mind. Let's also give people the benefit of the doubt. Heck for all you know, I could be a college student sitting in my room and glued to my computer screen!

    FWIW, ANY fuel leaked in a collision is a serious hazard. The flash point of gasoline is not particularly high, IIRC, and it doesn't take much to ignite.

    Thank you,

    Drew
    Host
    Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
  • hayneldanhayneldan Posts: 657
    I am admittedly a DC fan, and only take issue with things that I feel are a misinterpertation of or distortion of the facts(as I see them) I don't remember posting any distortions about Hondas but references to sources and asking people to "draw your own conclusions". Hondas are a Great minivan and if the dissapearing seat (which I had in my 1969 Town and Country station wagon) turns you on and you feel it is going to be used alot, by all means buy it.I have had a 96 DC minivan for over five years and can count on one hand how many times I had to take the rear seat out to carry cargo. I usually had to take out the second row captains chairs too. We have seen post where people have questioned the safety of the DC minivans and praised the Honda for its IIHS ratings. If that is your basis for buying, go for it. But realize that no van or manufacturer is perfect!
  • odd1odd1 Posts: 226
    You made my point clearer. No van is perfect that is why I said I'd feel as strong about this issue no matter the maker of the vehicle.

    If we as consumers don't object to how companies handle possible dangerous products then, we deserve what companies give us. That was more my point. I wasn't trying to rile up Chrysler apologists.

    Adam- I was trying to point out that we put so much of our person worth in what we own and drive that at times we defend things to an extreme and don't acknowledge possible negatives. I changed my lifestyle for the protect of my family and I don't understand how people can rationalize a risk albeit very small that is real. Maybe at your age with the maturity you have shown here you can understand where I'm coming from on this point. I certainly could not at the same age. Having children changes how you live and your outlook on many things.

    Don't get me started on people who buy mini-vans for their family's safety and then drive them at 80+ mph.
  • tomtomtomtomtomtom Posts: 491
    How many times you've seen people spill gas on the ground when they tired to fill up the tank?
    How many times you've seen people using their cell phones next to the gas pump?
    How many times you've seen a mechanics smokes while working on a car?

    Finally, how many times you've seen a 40mph accident?
  • carleton1carleton1 Posts: 560
    We almost bought a Granite Green 1999 Odyssey LX-C after placing an order with a $500 NON-Refundable deposit with the order March 16, 1999.
    We looked again more closely at the Grand Caravans and purchased a very well equipped 1999 GC SE for $1025 LESS than the price of the Odyssey LX-C. At the time, I had intended to drive the 99 GC SE for 2 or 3 years and either trade it in or sell the 99 GC and get a 2002 Honda Odyssey.
    We drove my sister's 2001 Odyssey EX 34.9 miles when it had 3677 miles on odometer at speeds up to 80 MPH (On I-80 where speed limit is 75 MPH...but people are driving well above 75 MPH) and were VERY impressed. We then drove our 99 GC SE in exactly the same place but it was only 34.0 miles for our GC when it had 30,809 miles on the odometer. Ody quicker 65-75 MPH but GC is quicker 0 to 30 MPH. Both are equally quiet, smooth, and nice to drive. The Automatic Temperature worked flawlessly in the Ody EX...fan speed would adjust if I adjusted temperature setting on Ody. Using manual control, I noticed the Ody fan has about a dozen different speeds. Our GC has only 5 speeds for fan.
    We did NOT detect any extra road noise from the well for the "Magic Seat" area. The Magic Seat had been folded into the floor when we drove it. Although our GC has the top of the line Infinity Sound, we were also completely satisfied with standard equipment Ody EX stereo...but would miss the Cassette player our DC has.
    Guess what? each has distinct advantages and it would be just as difficult to select one over the other now as it was in March 1999.
  • carleton1carleton1 Posts: 560
    And here is the brief "exact wording":

    ...."I just tried trading in my 2000 EX w/ navigation, leather (after-market of course) and 11k miles and was told that it was only worth $21,500 and that was from the mouth of a Honda dealer(s). "

    Very clear and concise. The owner paid MSRP and it was over $30,000. The trade in at 11k miles was $21,500.

    And of course NADA and others do not add extra for many options just like his aftermarket leather. The trade-in values are the basic equipped as purchased by fleet, rental, etc.

    The same policy many use to bad mouth DC should also apply to a Honda Odyssey. Trade-in is very low on ANY vehicle...Dealers make more money on trade-ins than on new vehicles.
  • DTKWOKDTKWOK Posts: 131
    Q:How many times you've seen people spill gas on the ground when they tired to fill up the tank?
    A: Many, usually from people who top off their tanks.

    Q: How many times you've seen people using their cell phones next to the gas pump?
    A: Several (less than 10). I wouldn't try it myself though.

    Q: How many times you've seen a mechanics smokes while working on a car?
    A: Actually, never. Then again, I don't call go to the mechanics too often. =)

    Q: Finally, how many times you've seen a 40mph accident?
    A: Several, on city streets, usually due to lane changes and/or at intersections. Only seen one on the highway, where a volvo stationwagon lost a tire and swerved across several lanes, didn't hit anyone though.

    As for the gasoline thing, it's a crap shoot. If gasoline did spill on the floor and you were standing about 3 feet away and lit a match, would the gas ignite? Who knows for certain? By the way, it would be the gasoline vapor that ignites, not the liquid. Also, you do not need a spark to start a fire, just the three requirements in the flammability triangle: fuel, catalyst (usually oxygen), and activation energy (e.g. heat, spark).

    Just wanted to clear some stuff up. Heck, if we could predict the time, location, and nature of all accidents wouldn't life be grand (rather than 5~10 grand, okay never mind...)??
  • scoyle1scoyle1 Posts: 14
    I really don't appreciate the personal attacks either.

    I did buy a 2001 Chrysler Town & Country Lxi and returned it to the dealership. For anyone who doesn't believe me, post your email address and I will gladly send you a copy of the registration cancellation (I will however disguise my last name and address).

    I did not know about D/C history of safety related issues prior to buying my 2001 Town & Country. After becoming frustrated by Daimler Chrysler's response to the IIHS tests, I have done a lot of research. That research has led me to believe that DaimlerChrysler's response to safety concerns is not an isolated event. Had I known that D/C had such a history, I would not have bought a D/C product.

    Minivans are not fun to drive, sexy etc. My family drives one because it is functional and hopefully safe. I did like the Town & Country the best prior to the safety tests. In my mind, it was the clear winner for drive, comfort, features, etc. However, saftey was my number one concern when it comes to a minivan. This is not a sports car. Please do not call me a liar or hurl any further insults at me. I have only told the truth thus far. I have not challenged anyone's morality or judgement. Please do the same.
This discussion has been closed.